The Eloy-Vaughn-Burger-Sheets Conundrum

[flavum]

I’m not trading Sheets or Burger for a rental. No way. Get a serviceable 2B for a Lambert type, and play it out. Then after the labor shit is over, figure out what you want to do 2022-24.

[maloney.adam]

6 minutes ago, flavum said:

I’m not trading Sheets or Burger for a rental. No way. Get a serviceable 2B for a Lambert type, and play it out. Then after the labor shit is over, figure out what you want to do 2022-24.

I agree with this. Trading Sheets for Escobar would be an overpay. I don’t think it’s going to take an overpay to acquire him anyways. I would thrown in Lambert and get the deal done now.

Edited July 18, 2021 by maloney.adam

[Chicago White Sox]

45 minutes ago, EloyJenkins said:

Sheets is good as gone. Traded to the Diamondbacks with a pitcher makes perfect sense for Escobar. Replace lefty power with no foreseeable position with a starting 2nd base for the playoffs that has better power numbers than anyone else on the team. Burger stays with the team and probably makes the playoff roster even if he keeps this up. Sheets is just a guy, dont get too attached.

Escobar isn’t going to cost that much IMO.

[EloyJenkins]

32 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Escobar isn’t going to cost that much IMO.

If you guys are confident in that good. Im just being realistic since i think many are overvaluing sheets also.

[tray]

If Sheets isn't that valuable then he will not be a linchpin in any trade.

[southsider2k5]

5 minutes ago, tray said:

If Sheets isn't that valuable then he will not be a linchpin in any trade.

Sheets is the kind of guy you move for a Rental to a team who is still thinking about next year.

[Dominikk85]

15 hours ago, TaylorStSox said:

This is crazy talk. If Burger finishes his career with 10% of the oWAR Vaughn finishes with, it will be a legit miracle. 

Yeah, I like burger but apart from the injury concerns there are also some concerns about his plate discipline. He can hit and has power but he also had a 4 to 1 k to bb ratio in AAA (26/6) while Vaughn probably will be more  like 20/12 (less than 2 to 1). That is a big difference 

[maxjusttyped]

1 minute ago, Dominikk85 said:

Yeah, I like burger but apart from the injury concerns there are also some concerns about his plate discipline. He can hit and has power but he also had a 4 to 1 k to bb ratio in AAA (26/6) while Vaughn probably will be more  like 20/12 (less than 2 to 1). That is a big difference 

Burger posted elite K/BB numbers in the minors before his injuries and also had excellent plate discipline in college. Maybe that part of his game won't return, but I don't think it's unrealistic to expect those numbers to start trending in a better direction as he continues to get more reps. The fact he can mash like this without strong plate discipline to me is remarkable. Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I think the K/BB rate has more to do with rust than it is a reflection of what we should expect from him going forward.

[elrockinMT]

20 hours ago, ron883 said:

When Eloy returns, what do? Eloy at DH, Vaughn RF and Burger or Sheets on bench (maybe demoted for one of them)? They could go with Vaughn RF, Eloy LF and Sheets or Burger at DH.

They also may trade Sheets or Burger. Their trade values have definitely gone up since playing in the majors. Both look great. 

There is no conundrum. Burger and/or Sheets may get demoted this season, but 2022 will see them all on the 26 man roster 

remember that they were called up to fill in 

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

4 hours ago, maxjusttyped said:

Burger posted elite K/BB numbers in the minors before his injuries and also had excellent plate discipline in college. Maybe that part of his game won't return, but I don't think it's unrealistic to expect those numbers to start trending in a better direction as he continues to get more reps. The fact he can mash like this without strong plate discipline to me is remarkable. Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I think the K/BB rate has more to do with rust than it is a reflection of what we should expect from him going forward.

Burger has always been aggressive, even before his injury in the minors. He posted a 6.45 BB% in 2017 before getting hurt, and was at 6.40 BB% in Charlotte. That's pretty consistent considering the long layoff in-between.

[South Side Hit Men]

11 minutes ago, elrockinMT said:

There is no conundrum. Burger and/or Sheets may get demoted this season, but 2022 will see them all on the 26 man roster 

remember that they were called up to fill in 

I can see maybe Burger, if he can either learn to play a serviceable corner OF or 2B. With a short 2-3 man bench (beyond a 2nd catcher), you need guys who can cover multiple positions.

IMO,Burger and Sheets will face the same constraints, with superior starters blocking FT play, and lack of flexibility blocking a reserve roll beyond coming up after a significant number of injuries.

If they don’t bring Leary back, they will bring back someone like him who can cover many positions. Especially if Tony returns, he wants 9 relievers, even if he only has faith in 2 or 3 as is the case now.

[maxjusttyped]

6 minutes ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

Burger has always been aggressive, even before his injury in the minors. He posted a 6.45 BB% in 2017 before getting hurt, and was at 6.40 BB% in Charlotte. That's pretty consistent considering the long layoff in-between.

Of course, but this is also the first year of his career (whether we're looking in the minors or college) where there's been any hint of a strikeout problem. I think he has the tools to pair elite power up with an above-average strikeout rate. I think the walk rate is what it is, but I think it's realistic to expect his k% to drop as he gets more reps. Maybe it's wishful thinking, but plate discipline (in this case just contact rate/laying off bad pitches) seems like it would be the last thing to return given the fact he lost 3 full years of development and is also facing the best pitching (by a mile) that he's ever seen in his life. Something like a 7% BB 20% K .200 ISO doesn't seem unrealistic to me once the rust has completely worn off.

[ron883]

57 minutes ago, elrockinMT said:

There is no conundrum. Burger and/or Sheets may get demoted this season, but 2022 will see them all on the 26 man roster 

remember that they were called up to fill in 

So you've got Vaughn and Eloy in the OF with Sheets and Burger platooning DH? Interesting

Edited July 19, 2021 by ron883

[YoYoIsMyHero]

All I know is Burger needs PA's with all the time he missed. It won't do him any good starting 1-2 times a week once Eloy is back and a possible 2B trade. He's the first to be sent down for me. Sheets will be sent down for Lamb when he's ready since they fill the same role. 

[Sambuca]

There has never been a time when the White Sox had too many good players.  We can safely assume this will never happen and these these scenarios will work themselves out naturally.  

[he gone.]

Okay does anybody who spends more time on this stuff know the exact situation upcoming?

Top of mind we have Eloy back maybe this weekend, so one guy will have to go. Robert follows 2 weeks after ... so another has to go? Jake Lamb has been playing in AAA for three games and he gets 20? total? that's the max right? So you have 2.5 weeks for a decision on him. 

Would guess that Sheets and Burger, etc. have options. How about guys like Goodwin and Hamilton? Do they have to clear to go down to AAA? Think someone like Lamb would have to clear to keep in AAA? 

At catcher I'd assume Savala will be upgraded, just not a MLB bat. Yermin is crushing down in AAA ... if that bat is even 75% of what it was in April/May you'd have to think you want that somewhere on the roster too? Can he even catch 1-2 games a week ... is it that bad? 

Just seems like a BIG roster crunch coming soon and that's even without acquiring a 2b. The way i see it we have what? 3 moves to make for sure?

Guessing that Sheets, Burger just get sent down. A shame, since they're doing so well and look like their talent belongs (though we said that about Yermin - so maybe pitching hasn't adjusted yet). Both of those guys are young, have options, etc. so it seems like the easy route to just send them down. That would open spots for Eloy and Lamb. After that? Would you consider Mendick going down and Leury being IF depth only? Or do you send/cut Goodwin/Hamilton down? Goodwin is a better player all around for sure, but that speed and Defense off the bench would seem to make more of an impact on this team. 

 

Seems like a lot of tough decision upcoming in the next 14 days or so ... trade deadline and roster shuffling ahead!

[gogosox1959]

I think Yermin stays down and Savala sticks. 

Catcher is the position that is hardest for outsiders to actually judge and it's pretty clear that they don't think that Yermin is a big league catcher.    When  TLA talked about Savala's call up, he talked game planning and preparation with the pitchers.  They way it was worded, I took that as an insight as to why they don't believe in Mercedes.  More than any other position, catcher is the position where offensive contribution comes second.

Edited July 20, 2021 by gogosox1959
typo

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

4 minutes ago, gogosox1959 said:

I think Yermin stays down and Savala sticks. 

Catcher is the position that is hardest for outsiders to actually judge and it's pretty clear that they don't think that Yermin is a big league catcher.    When  TLA talked about Savala's call up, he talked game planning and preparation with the pitchers.  They way it was worded, I took that as an insight as to why they don't believe in Mercedes.  More than any other position, catcher is the position where offensive contribution comes second.

I think Yermin will be gone by the deadline. No spot on this roster with Sheets and Burger stepping up and being more valuable (along with Eloy back).  Yermin will go for some "meh" reliever.

[Lillian]

While you are contemplating all of those roster moves, consider these split stats for Vaughn and Sheets versus RHP:

Vaughn      AB 179  2B 8  HR 5  RBI  16     AVG .212  OBP .263  SLG .341  OPS  .603

Sheets       AB  40   2B 4  HR 5  RBI  14     AVG .300  OBP .396  SLG .775  OPS .1,171

SMALL SAMPLE SIZE, however unless things change pretty quickly, I think I know what I'd do.

 

 

 

 

[tray]

6 minutes ago, Lillian said:

While you are contemplating all of those roster moves, consider these split stats for Vaughn and Sheets versus RHP:

Vaughn      AB 179  2B 8  HR 5  RBI  16     AVG .212  OBP .263  SLG .341  OPS  .603

Sheets       AB  40   2B 4  HR 5  RBI  14     AVG .300  OBP .396  SLG .775  OPS .1,171

SMALL SAMPLE SIZE, however unless things change pretty quickly, I think I know what I'd do.

 

 

 

 

Sheets/Vaughn or Sheets/Burger Lefty/Righty platoon at 1B, DH or RF.   All of these guys are in the line-up for their bats so they get substituted for in late innings when the Sox have a lead. 

[southsider2k5]

10 minutes ago, Lillian said:

While you are contemplating all of those roster moves, consider these split stats for Vaughn and Sheets versus RHP:

Vaughn      AB 179  2B 8  HR 5  RBI  16     AVG .212  OBP .263  SLG .341  OPS  .603

Sheets       AB  40   2B 4  HR 5  RBI  14     AVG .300  OBP .396  SLG .775  OPS .1,171

SMALL SAMPLE SIZE, however unless things change pretty quickly, I think I know what I'd do.

 

 

 

 

How about this one instead?

42 AB 3 2B 3 HR 10 RBI .500 AVG .548 OBP .816 SLG 1.363 OPS... which was Yermins first 42 ABs.

[he gone.]

11 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

How about this one instead?

42 AB 3 2B 3 HR 10 RBI .500 AVG .548 OBP .816 SLG 1.363 OPS... which was Yermins first 42 ABs.

those were fun times. ya, that's why its so hard for me to wrap my head around how bad he must be at catcher. I get it, catcher is about being a heady player who can block balls, throw guys out stealing, call a great game, etc. and if you get a hit too? Gravy. to me it's always, these guys are in AAA or the majors --- they're clearly already the top 1% at their jobs in the world. I always though it was overblown that guys can't step in at other positions. Maybe not long term - you do it enough and it bubbles to the top. But just like Sheets in RF or Vaughn in LF ... Mendick in RF ... it's not ideal, but feel like in a pinch these guys can hold their own (mostly). With Grandal being back later in the year we're not really asking for Yermin to be the solution, just the band-aid for 30-45 days, and basically 2 times a week. I'd have to think that's possible. Clearly the Sox disagree otherwise I think he'd already have had the shot.

[bmags]

Burger had a 24% k rate in AAA after that layoff. We are talking about 36 PAs after an insane jump in competition. I don't think it's a concern yet.

I've actually been feeling recently that we seem much more even in rhp v lhp mainly due to collins/sheets vs rhp and a lack of some of the oomph we had with eloy/robert/grandal.

Sheets bat really is nice but he's not close to Vaughn as a fielder, and so it comes down to Goodwin's versatility and still good production vs. RHP to Sheets thumping.

Overall, I would have never guessed any handwringing here. Just a great job by pretty much everyone except Nick Williams and Adam Eaton.

[Quin]

Just now, bmags said:

Burger had a 24% k rate in AAA after that layoff. We are talking about 36 PAs after an insane jump in competition. I don't think it's a concern yet.

I've actually been feeling recently that we seem much more even in rhp v lhp mainly due to collins/sheets vs rhp and a lack of some of the oomph we had with eloy/robert/grandal.

Sheets bat really is nice but he's not close to Vaughn as a fielder, and so it comes down to Goodwin's versatility and still good production vs. RHP to Sheets thumping.

Overall, I would have never guessed any handwringing here. Just a great job by pretty much everyone except Nick Williams and Adam Eaton.

Nick Williams out here catching strays.

[southsider2k5]

10 minutes ago, Quin said:

Nick Williams out here catching strays.

The sad thing is he is about to catch a playoff share.