Sox Acquire Kimbrel; Madrigal, Heuer to Cubs

[Tony]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Your optimism about this team and spending money on FA's is very enviable, but I would bet any amount of money you want that Cesar Hernandez is the 2nd baseman next year and this team will not make a major splash in FA (major being over 100 million).

If they signed Donovan Solano for 2 years, you’re basically getting Nicky..

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, fathom said:

is Madrigal that much better than Hernandez in your mind?

I'm a big Madrigal fan, but I do have concerns about durability.

I will never ever be a buy high, sell low guy.

Just 4 months ago you could have had Kimbrel for Blake Rutherford, and Madrigal/Heuer likely could have netted you a controlled and cheap high quality position player or SP (like German Marquez) with maybe something smaller thrown in.

Now four months later you're buying high on Kimbrel and selling low/injured on those two guys. That's never a great investment strategy.

[fathom]

Just now, Tony said:

If they signed Donovan Solano for 2 years, you’re basically getting Nicky..

thank you, he's so easily replaceable 

[chw42]

1 minute ago, fathom said:

is Madrigal that much better than Hernandez in your mind?

I mean if you put it this way, for 2022, probably not. Madrigal is probably a 4 win player max next year. Hernandez is probably a 2 or 3 win player. 

[CentralChamps21]

1 minute ago, fathom said:

is Madrigal that much better than Hernandez in your mind?

It's more that Madrigal is controllable for 5 more years compared to 1 for Hernandez.

That said, I'd love to see the Sox sign Escobar or Semien in the offseason and make Hernandez the new (but much better) Leury Garcia and also a potential platoon partner for Engel in RF.

[fathom]

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I'm a big Madrigal fan, but I do have concerns about durability.

I will never ever be a buy high, sell low guy.

Just 4 months ago you could have had Kimbrel for Blake Rutherford, and Madrigal/Heuer likely could have netted you a controlled and cheap high quality position player or SP (like German Marquez) with maybe something smaller thrown in.

Now four months later you're buying high on Kimbrel and selling low/injured on those two guys. That's never a great investment strategy.

they tried to trade Madrigal and Heuer but couldn't get good enough value in the offseason

[Balta1701]

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I'm a big Madrigal fan, but I do have concerns about durability.

I will never ever be a buy high, sell low guy.

Just 4 months ago you could have had Kimbrel for Blake Rutherford, and Madrigal/Heuer likely could have netted you a controlled and cheap high quality position player or SP (like German Marquez) with maybe something smaller thrown in.

Now four months later you're buying high on Kimbrel and selling low/injured on those two guys. That's never a great investment strategy.

But you know what? Win 1 world series and the investment strategy has paid off several times over. 

[southsider2k5]

Just now, chw42 said:

I mean if you put it this way, for 2022, probably not. Madrigal is probably a 4 win player max next year. Hernandez is probably a 2 or 3 win player. 

If Nick plays 140 games...

[reiks12]

6 minutes ago, Superstar Lamar said:

If the Sox choose, they could put Kimbrel on the market in the off season and receive an offer of similar value from multiple suitors

Oh really? We can trade Kimbrel for 3-4 WAR?

[Capn12]

I will say, the 2021 FA options at 2B are pretty terrible, so maybe we are looking at Cesar next season too.

[StrangeSox]

wowy wowy wow wow

[Chisoxmb35]

12 minutes ago, bmags said:

Volatility works both ways, he is a great bullpen arm. Heuers a big loss for next year.

And Kimbrel could go back to the bad Kimbrel just as easily..especially coming to the AL.

[Jerksticks]

11 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

This is exactly how I feel. Great teams don't spend a high percentage of their payroll on relievers. It's unreliable and inefficient.

Starting this year, EVERYONE thought the White Sox had a dominant post-season and it was the strength of their team. 4 months later everyone was desperate to add bullpen pieces. Looks like the Sox didn't learn their lesson.

Yes but we are probably the only team with a dominant rotation for what, 30-40M? And the best rotation in the league  arguably.

 

LOL that’s laughable.  Why can’t that surplus be blasted into a shutdown bullpen?

 

I think this was the absolute smartest use of cash/prospects at just the right time.  
 

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by Jerksticks

[Superstar Lamar]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

No need to anymore.

I mean Hendriks one night and Kimbrel the next each going 2

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, bmags said:

But you said this:

"I think there's a good reason that the progressive teams sell off good bullpen pieces every year and seem to find a way to make new ones out of thin air. There are methods for maximizing raw stuff, but these guys typically don't have enough tricks to make it last very long. """"

Certainly for the Rays, this is true. But the Dodgers are progressive and decided not to let kenley jansen go and get a comp pick but instead sign him for a 6 year deal or whatever. 

I guess...if the sox did this in the offseason - did the rockies thing - I'd hate it. But, there needs to be some maximizing each season that happens, and stretching when that's needed.  

It is disappointing that we needed to use major league ready assets because we already had no farm. But the sox were in particular hit badly by the loss of a real 2020 draft, imo, and they do seem to be trying to straighten it out quick, but could fail because they are completely unproven there.

I would have preferred madrigal and heuer turn into trea turner, it's definitely better use of resources. But I also just want them to take seriously each year. And trading a true 2nd baseman and a RP aren't the profiels I'm scared of trading away.

What big prospects did the Dodgers trade for Jansen?

And to use the Dodgers, they made the horrible trade of sending maybe the best young hitter in baseball to the Astros for a rental reliever. A deal I bet they wish they never made.

[Superstar Lamar]

2 minutes ago, reiks12 said:

Oh really? We can trade Kimbrel for 3-4 WAR?

Yes, really.

[chw42]

Just now, Chisoxmb35 said:

And Kimbrel could go back to the bad Kimbrel just as easily..especially coming to the AL.

Kimbrel made some adjustments in ST to get him back to this version of himself. He's always had good velocity, even when he was terrible. As long as he doesn't forget how to throw strikes he'll continue to be this version of himself until age catches up. 

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, Capn12 said:

I will say, the 2021 FA options at 2B are pretty terrible, so maybe we are looking at Cesar next season too.

I figured he would be sticking around as Future Leury in 22, but now it is all but certain he is back unless he just BOMBS.

[Tony]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I'm a big Madrigal fan, but I do have concerns about durability.

I will never ever be a buy high, sell low guy.

Just 4 months ago you could have had Kimbrel for Blake Rutherford, and Madrigal/Heuer likely could have netted you a controlled and cheap high quality position player or SP (like German Marquez) with maybe something smaller thrown in.

Now four months later you're buying high on Kimbrel and selling low/injured on those two guys. That's never a great investment strategy.

NONE of this matters. Who cares about 4 months ago? Do you know how much changes in 4 months? 

They made a move to acquire a player that they desperately needed, and he was the best one out there. And they used assets that weren’t serving a purpose for the 2021 team. 

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, Superstar Lamar said:

I mean Hendriks one night and Kimbrel the next each going 2

Again, no need to extend these guys.  Let them throw 15 pitches a night, and you can use them the entire series.

[Superstar Lamar]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

But you know what? Win 1 world series and the investment strategy has paid off several times over. 

A world series justifies every move made in its pursuit.

[Tony]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

But you know what? Win 1 world series and the investment strategy has paid off several times over. 

Bingo 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

But you know what? Win 1 world series and the investment strategy has paid off several times over. 

Sure, but the best way to win 1 world series is to maximize your playoff appearances. The best way to win a roll of the craps dice is to roll the dice more than once.

I think it increases their chances this year, but by how much? Who can say.

I think it potentially decreases their chances next year and beyond.

What would you rather have done? Pay Kimbrel 16 million next year, or give Rodon 85 million over 4 years? Based on the Sox spending habits, they certainly won't be doing both.

Just as I absolutely hated investing our primary off-season resources in a closer, I absolutely hate investing our primary trade assets in a bullpen arm, but that doesn't mean it doesn't improve their chances this year; which is great.

[Big Hurtin]

I don't get it.  They actually did something bold, but now it's not good?  They had to give up something to get something.  I like Madrigal too, but he hasn't even played enough to be considered a core piece, and he's certainly not irreplaceable .

[southsider2k5]

Just now, Tony said:

NONE of this matters. Who cares about 4 months ago? Do you know how much changes in 4 months? 

They made a move to acquire a player that they desperately needed, and he was the best one out there. And they used assets that weren’t serving a purpose for the 2021 team. 

I mean, teams weren't shoving in all of their chips four months ago either.  If the Sox see this as a World Series shot of a year, there was definitely some keeping up with the Joneses which needed to happen.