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Jose a MLB GOAT according to TLR

southsider2k5

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South Side Hit Men Grand Master

South Side Hit Men

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I love Jose, and it's nice Tony supports his players, or at least the ones he likes, but this must be an awfully large list. 

Also have to consider Jerry and Tony jammed another "great" player into the HOF, the same committee which previously rejected Dick Allen who Jerry claims is not a HOFer. 

Career fWAR (All Time MLB Rank among Position Players)

Even if you adjust for Jose's age 24-26 years stuck in Cuba, and are generous with his remaining career, he would be approaching Harold Baines, a very good player but not among the greatest players in ML history.

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harkness99 Grand Master

harkness99

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1 hour ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I love Jose, and it's nice Tony supports his players, or at least the ones he likes, but this must be an awfully large list. 

Also have to consider Jerry and Tony jammed another "great" player into the HOF, the same committee which previously rejected Dick Allen who Jerry claims is not a HOFer. 

Career fWAR (All Time MLB Rank among Position Players)

Even if you adjust for Jose's age 24-26 years stuck in Cuba, and are generous with his remaining career, he would be approaching Harold Baines, a very good player but not among the greatest players in ML history.

nah its really difficult to base abreus legacy on Fwar career total... he is likely missing some of his biggest years in the mlb..

harold baines ahead of konerko for example... no way. its a longevity based stat 

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South Side Hit Men Grand Master

South Side Hit Men

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31 minutes ago, harkness99 said:

nah its really difficult to base abreus legacy on Fwar career total... he is likely missing some of his biggest years in the mlb..

harold baines ahead of konerko for example... no way. its a longevity based stat 

Notable fWAR (Filtered for age 27-34 seasons) (B

Added the highest White Sox / partial (1 or more year on Sox between ages 27-34) White Sox (Plus the Wizard) through top 500:

  • 50.1 Eddie Collins (23rd all time)
  • 41.4 Minnie Minoso (56th)
  • 40.8 Ozzie Smith (61st)
  • 37.6 Luke Appling (89th)
  • 33.0 Robin Ventura (151st)
  • 31.2 Albert Belle (174th)
  • 31.0 Frank Thomas (177th)
  • 29.6 Tim Raines (205th)
  • 28.9 Dick Allen (220th)
  • 28.7 Nellie Fox (227th)
  • 26.1 Sherm Lollar (294th)
  • 25.5 O-D-O Magglio Ordonez (315th)
  • 23.9 Ray Durham (345th)
  • 23.7 Lance "One Dog" Johnson (355th)
  • 23.3 Yasmani "Mr. fWAR" Grandal (373rd)
  • 22.7 Jose Abreu (395th)
  • 22.1 Luis Aparicio (414th)
  • 21.0 Todd Frazier (454th)

Among the very good, just not "greatest MLB of all time".

Also, Konerko played until he was 38. If you back out Harold Baines' Age 39-42 seasons (1988-2001, 367 games, 2.1 fWAR total):

  1. 36.3 Harold Baines over
  2. 24.0 Paul Konerko

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2021&month=0&season1=1871&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=27,34&filter=&players=0&startdate=&enddate=&page=1_50

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harkness99 Grand Master

harkness99

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1 minute ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Notable fWAR (Filtered for age 27-34 seasons) (B

Added the highest White Sox / partial (1 or more year on Sox between ages 27-34) White Sox (Plus the Wizard) through top 500:

  • 50.1 Eddie Collins (23rd all time)
  • 41.4 Minnie Minoso (56th)
  • 40.8 Ozzie Smith (61st)
  • 37.6 Luke Appling (89th)
  • 33.0 Robin Ventura (151st)
  • 31.2 Albert Belle (174th)
  • 31.0 Frank Thomas (177th)
  • 29.6 Tim Raines (205th)
  • 28.9 Dick Allen (220th)
  • 28.7 Nellie Fox (227th)
  • 26.1 Sherm Lollar (294th)
  • 25.5 O-D-O Magglio Ordonez (315th)
  • 23.9 Ray Durham (345th)
  • 23.7 Lance "One Dog" Johnson (355th)
  • 23.3 Yasmani "Mr. fWAR" Grandal (373rd)
  • 22.7 Jose Abreu (395th)
  • 22.1 Luis Aparicio (414th)
  • 21.0 Todd Frazier (454th)

Among the very good, just not "greatest MLB of all time".

Also, Konerko played until he was 38. If you back out Harold Baines' Age 39-42 seasons (1988-2001, 367 games, 2.1 fWAR total):

  1. 36.3 Harold Baines over
  2. 24.0 Paul Konerko

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2021&month=0&season1=1871&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=27,34&filter=&players=0&startdate=&enddate=&page=1_50

oh i dont think abreu is one of the greatest of all time... agreed there

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NWINFan Veteran

NWINFan

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Abreu isn't one of the greatest of all time, but he has had a great career with the Sox. I remember seeing him the first time during the home opener in 2014 and will never forget a couple of line shot hits he picked up that day. He will be remembered by many Sox fans, and that is all that really matters.

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ShoeLessRob Grand Master

ShoeLessRob

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59 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

Abreu isn't one of the greatest of all time, but he has had a great career with the Sox. I remember seeing him the first time during the home opener in 2014 and will never forget a couple of line shot hits he picked up that day. He will be remembered by many Sox fans, and that is all that really matters.

I think they will retire his number “IF” he plays for another 2-3 years with the team. 

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CentralChamps21 Grand Master

CentralChamps21

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Just now, ShoeLessRob said:

I think they will retire his number “IF” he plays for another 2-3 years with the team. 

With Vaughn already a budding star and Sheets and Burger still in the system, I don't see how they keep Jose beyond the end of his contract, unless he wants to be a part-time player and be paid as such.

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ShoeLessRob Grand Master

ShoeLessRob

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7 minutes ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

With Vaughn already a budding star and Sheets and Burger still in the system, I don't see how they keep Jose beyond the end of his contract, unless he wants to be a part-time player and be paid as such.

I agree, but I can see them extending him a contract past they should. 

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Colome's Hat Experienced

Colome's Hat

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55 minutes ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

With Vaughn already a budding star and Sheets and Burger still in the system, I don't see how they keep Jose beyond the end of his contract, unless he wants to be a part-time player and be paid as such.

I can.  If he can still put up numbers somewhere in between 2020 and this year, I think they should.  Vaughn has proven himself to be a good outfielder and his future might be there.  Jose might have to transition to doing more time at DH but I think it's definitely possible.  It really depends on how he produces.

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Colome's Hat Experienced

Colome's Hat

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I love Jose, and it's nice Tony supports his players, or at least the ones he likes, but this must be an awfully large list. 

Also have to consider Jerry and Tony jammed another "great" player into the HOF, the same committee which previously rejected Dick Allen who Jerry claims is not a HOFer. 

Career fWAR (All Time MLB Rank among Position Players)

Even if you adjust for Jose's age 24-26 years stuck in Cuba, and are generous with his remaining career, he would be approaching Harold Baines, a very good player but not among the greatest players in ML history.

I guess but this is still only looking at part of his career.  Careers can be weird.  I wouldn't say Adrian Beltre would have been a first ballot Hall of Famer based on the first half of his career.  Yet it was the second half of his career where he really started to put up career best numbers (outside of that one amazing year he had with the Dodgers), stayed healthy, and consistently kept compiling numbers, which cemented him as a first ballot Hall of Famer.  

Jose, outside of 2018, has been able to stay healthy and play 150 or more games every year outside of his rookie year and of course 2020, which he started every single game.  Will the abuse his body has taken catch up with him?  Maybe.  Or it might not.  I also wouldn't be surprised to eventually see him win a Gold Glove if he keeps playing at 1st.  It's just really hard to sort of make that call right now.

This is also why I still haven't given up on Moncada either.  He and Beltre are different players but many people wrote off Beltre before he got to Boston.  Hopefully Yoan finds it sooner because if he follows Beltre's career, his best years likely won't be in a Sox uniform.

As far as Baines, I went to his Hall of Fame induction and I always thought he deserved to be in.  DH is a real position.  And it depends on who you look at his career.  The fact is, the bench marks he hit, everyone above him and several below him in things like hits are in the Hall of Fame.  If 3,000 hits is basically a guarantee to the Hall, Harold would have without a doubt reached that benchmark had he not played in two strike years.  The two strike years robbed him of likely reaching 400 home runs and 3,000 hits.

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FoxForce2 Experienced

FoxForce2

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The Cuban Connection is very strong in SoxLand and Abreu is the Mace Windu of it all. More than a little intangible value in Abreu's game and considering the leap he's made at First, it's easy to see him on the field for the next 2-3 years anyway.
MLB historical near-GOAT? errrrrrrrr no.
p.s. What's up with listing Ozzie Smith with the rest of the Sox fWAR players?

 

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chitownsportsfan Grand Master

chitownsportsfan

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I would have loved to see what he could have done in his athletic prime and with the improved training, coaching and diet that he found (and utilized) when he got over here.  He probably would have had a few 320/380/600 seasons.  He has lost a lot of bat speed and he cheats, but he's still a good enough hitter to where he makes it work.  One year he'll fall off, but it hasn't happened yet.

The first time I saw him at spring training he literally didn't even know how to hold runners on at 1B.  If he'd have gotten US coaching earlier in his career who knows what sort of career he could have had.  I do think he'd be at least a HOVG type.  Not HOF perhaps but in that next tier, which is still a helluva career.  He might get there anyways.

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