Chicago Sun Times: White Sox and their replay system need to sharpen up

[Dick Allen]

4 minutes ago, manbearpuig said:

Fair take. Now don't you have an odd Jarred Kelenic-obsessed thread to update?

Kelenic is going to be great, but Harold seems to think he's a combo Mickey Mantle/ Willie Mays only better, and that Mike Trout is a poor man's version of him. OTOH, he also pegs Nick Madrigal as perhaps the worst player to ever play baseball. 

[Dick Allen]

4 minutes ago, maloney.adam said:

The second photo he was clearly safe. The first photo it’s hard to tell unless you zoom in on it but it looks like his foot is off the bag. If they were told to not challenge the plays than I don’t know what they are looking at. You got to take that risk especially if it’s a difference of one or two runs.

The first one, which is the second picture,if it was closer, you could see not challenging since it was the first inning, but that obvious. The other was in the 7th inning, no need to save your challenges not to use them at that point. Very odd.

[maloney.adam]

6 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

The first one, which is the second picture,if it was closer, you could see not challenging since it was the first inning, but that obvious. The other was in the 7th inning, no need to save your challenges not to use them at that point. Very odd.

I agree very odd. It makes you think, if the same thing happens in the playoffs, they aren’t going to challenge it?

Edited August 16, 2021 by maloney.adam

[Dick Allen]

The only excuse was the video wasn't working, and even then, turn on a TV and watch your broadcast. I was at the game so I didn't see it, but I would have been pissed. Hernandez was also baffled by the lack of challenge. I just chalked it up to too close, it wouldn't have been changed. 

 

Either that, or he was watching porn.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Dick Allen

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

This is such bullshit. Kash is an incredible guy and he does a ton for the organization.  It's a very difficult job and a totally fucked up system but they call him out to appease the idiot mob.  That's fuckin bullshit.  

This particular situation boils down to a basic understanding of the rules.  There is nothing to lose by challenging the TA play in the 7th.  The Cesar play in one thing - not reviewing the TA play is a terrible mishap by the staff, the review team and everyone involved. Tony should just put his hands on his ears before even phoning the room in that scenario.  He either doesn't get the rules, or doesn't like them.  Whoever is the in the replay room should understand this lack of understanding and immediately call for a review in that scenario.  Its truly baffling.  

This is the type of shit we saw a ton of the first 2 months of the season.  TLR seemed to mostly settle in recently and grasp the modern rules, but the ineptitude resurfaced yesterday.   

[ron883]

3 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

The only excuse was the video wasn't working, and even then, turn on a TV and watch your broadcast. I was at the game so I didn't see it, but I would have been pissed. Hernandez was also baffled by the lack of challenge. I just chalked it up to too close, it wouldn't have been changed. 

 

Either that, or he was watching porn.

Hey message board idiot, you don't understand how time consuming this job is for Kash. The guy can barely find any time to watch porn. He's got to fit that in where he can. 

[ChiSox59]

28 minutes ago, Tony said:

Over-confident message board idiot wanted to trade Andrew Vaughn, Dylan Cease and Nick Madrgial for Michael Conforto before the 2021 season. 

I love this place. 

LOL. 

[RG23SoxFan]

14 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

This particular situation boils down to a basic understanding of the rules.  There is nothing to lose by challenging the TA play in the 7th.  The Cesar play in one thing - not reviewing the TA play is a terrible mishap by the staff, the review team and everyone involved. Tony should just put his hands on his ears before even phoning the room in that scenario.  He either doesn't get the rules, or doesn't like them.  Whoever is the in the replay room should understand this lack of understanding and immediately call for a review in that scenario.  Its truly baffling.  

This is the type of shit we saw a ton of the first 2 months of the season.  TLR seemed to mostly settle in recently and grasp the modern rules, but the ineptitude resurfaced yesterday.   

Exactly, the first one I could see not challenging but with the second one occurring in the 7th inning it should have taken exactly one second to ask for a review.

[Dick Allen]

3 minutes ago, RG23SoxFan said:

Exactly, the first one I could see not challenging but with the second one occurring in the 7th inning it should have taken exactly one second to ask for a review.

The first one you can see not challenging until you see the replay with the foot on first base and the ball a couple of feet from the glove. 

[hankchifan]

9 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

From the Chicago Sun Times Article by Steve Greenberg:

https://chicago.suntimes.com/white-sox/2021/8/15/22626399/white-sox-and-their-replay-system-need-to-sharpen-up

Michael Kashirsky is listed in the Sox website as a "Pre Game Instructor", and is the person named in the linked article as the person who reviews the replays, and discusses challenges with Jerry Narron. We are left to assume that Jerry tells Tony whether to challenge based on this article.

 

You are right.  They were safe both times.  Sox video replay and the coaching staff including TLR get an F here.  Didn’t anyone in the Sox dugout see that they were safe or didn’t the runners tell TLR to review?  This was a collective failure.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

3 hours ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

This is such bullshit. Kash is an incredible guy and he does a ton for the organization.  It's a very difficult job and a totally fucked up system but they call him out to appease the idiot mob.  That's fuckin bullshit.  

Well if he's the one missing all of these (been happening a lot all year), maybe we should find someone else to be our review guy and if Kash is so good, he can stay in his other roles.

[hankchifan]

1 hour ago, maloney.adam said:

I agree very odd. It makes you think, if the same thing happens in the playoffs, they aren’t going to challenge it?

TLR should delegate challenges to someone else on the bench or to a group of coaches on the bench to get a different perspective.  We should err on the side of being aggressive.  TLR said that in one of the plays it was a tie and that normally is not overturned from out to safe.  This  is BS, a tie normally goes to the runner.

[Harry Chappas]

In real time during the game the first inning review appeared that it would not be overturned.  The still photo appears otherwise but you still do not see the foot on the bag.  You need both time stamped photos for that.

The 7th inning was idiotic to say the least as there is no reason to not challenge.  

 

 

[Dick Allen]

9 minutes ago, hankchifan said:

TLR should delegate challenges to someone else on the bench or to a group of coaches on the bench to get a different perspective.  We should err on the side of being aggressive.  TLR said that in one of the plays it was a tie and that normally is not overturned from out to safe.  This  is BS, a tie normally goes to the runner.

There is nothing in the rulebook that says a tie goes to the runner, but technically it should. If you have the frame where the ball is deemed caught, a tie would me the foot is on first, and that would be safe. The problem is they are guessing a lot of times when the ball is actually caught. The 1/1000 of a second makes a huge difference.

[RG23SoxFan]

30 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

The first one you can see not challenging until you see the replay with the foot on first base and the ball a couple of feet from the glove. 

I guess Idk what resources the replay room has when making a decision and their time to decide is limited.  I guess the point is when you get to the 7th inning you might as well challenge anything that is close no matter what the replay is showing.

[hankchifan]

6 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Perhaps, depends on who he brought in for bench coach and or the review videos. Jerry Narron isn't necessarily a spry chicken at 65 years old, young in Tony's orbit but a generation removed from A. J. Hinch and his peers.

One of several areas the Sox would definitely improve on would be defensive shifting. Hinch's Tigers are 4th in baseball, Sox 27th from last, with the Tigers shifting at just under twice the rate (38.4% vs. 19.7%). Not sure what unwritten rules intelligent defense violates in Tony's mind. The Sox under Ricky Renteria were just under league average, and (34.2% vs. 29.3%), and employed 48.7% more than Tony does it.

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/visuals/team-positioning?teamId=117&venue=home&firstBase=0&shift=1&batSide=&season=2021

Would really help accommodate his platoon fetish and the terrible defensive "pseudo outfielders" (Lamb, Sheets) and Goodwin who ranks (423rd in MLB in Outs Above Average out of 473 total defenders).

Right on.  Our top coaches are on Medicare or close to it.  We have a 20th century manager in a fast paced, metrics based game where you need to create and adjust, and not depend on old formulaic plans like matchups, little shifting, worrying about respect for the game, etc.

[RG23SoxFan]

16 minutes ago, hankchifan said:

TLR should delegate challenges to someone else on the bench or to a group of coaches on the bench to get a different perspective.  We should err on the side of being aggressive.  TLR said that in one of the plays it was a tie and that normally is not overturned from out to safe.  This  is BS, a tie normally goes to the runner.

I can tell you right now that if it appears to be a tie on the replay there is no need to challenge.  In those cases whatever is called on the field is going to stand.  They must have video evidence to overturn a call and looking at the replay and determining it was a tie means don't change the call.

[hankchifan]

4 hours ago, hogan873 said:

The Hernandez play was close.  I think he was safe, but it might not have gotten overturned.

The second one was blatant.  The first baseman's foot was clearly off the bag.  Plus, there was nothing to lose by challenging it there.  A really bad miss by whoever was supposed to make that decision.

Steve Stone didn't help by saying over and over again how Hernandez was out and how great a play it was.  He even said a few times one the second play that it was "too close" until Mike Monaco said something about his foot clearly being off the bag.

Contrary to Stoney the TBS broadcast team said that runner was safe both times, and were surprised Sox did not challenge, particularly in the 7 th where we had nothing to lose by challenging.  Something needs to change on current replay process.

[hankchifan]

10 minutes ago, RG23SoxFan said:

I can tell you right now that if it appears to be a tie on the replay there is no need to challenge.  In those cases whatever is called on the field is going to stand.  They must have video evidence to overturn a call and looking at the replay and determining it was a tie means don't change the call.

OK, but in the 7th we had nothing to lose by challenging and maybe we could have gotten lucky.

[RG23SoxFan]

18 minutes ago, hankchifan said:

OK, but in the 7th we had nothing to lose by challenging and maybe we could have gotten lucky.

I absolutely agree to challenge the one in the 7th, that should have been challenged immediately without looking at the replay.

[Harry Chappas]

43 minutes ago, hankchifan said:

Contrary to Stoney the TBS broadcast team said that runner was safe both times, and were surprised Sox did not challenge, particularly in the 7 th where we had nothing to lose by challenging.  Something needs to change on current replay process.

The first inning broadcast said he was out when they looked at it after the break.  That one was debatable the second one even if he was clearly out there was not risk in challenging.

[Bob Sacamano]

4 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

the White Sox have challenged 9 calls all year and rank in the bottom 5 of all of baseball. if this is a part of his job description, then he's failing at it; regardless of what else he does for the team. if he's so valuable elsewhere move him there and get him out of this position. i know you love to stan for larussa and i guess now kash, but get a grip.

9 times? What in the fuck are we doing.

[chw42]

13 minutes ago, manbearpuig said:

9 times? What in the fuck are we doing.

I jokingly said in the game thread that I can count the number of times we've won a replay review we initiated on one hand. Turns out I only need 2 hands to count the number of times we've even initiated a replay review. 

[CentralChamps21]

9 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

One of several areas the Sox would definitely improve on would be defensive shifting. Hinch's Tigers are 4th in baseball, Sox 27th from last, with the Tigers shifting at just under twice the rate (38.4% vs. 19.7%). Not sure what unwritten rules intelligent defense violates in Tony's mind. The Sox under Ricky Renteria were just under league average, and (34.2% vs. 29.3%), and employed 48.7% more than Tony does it.

Sox are 3rd in the AL in pitcher BABIP despite a very high K rate and low GB rate, so the lack of shifting can't be hurting that much.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

The one in the first inning, we really didn't see a definitive "safe" replay until a bit later. The 1st few replays something was always blocked from view, couldn't see the foot  of the runner at the same time as getting a good look at the ball entering the glove or whatever. Now if that's the case also in the replay room for the Sox the 1st few replays from different angles were not definitive. I will admit I am a know nothing fan so there's no way I can say what the guy watching the replays saw or how long it took to see the definitive one. It could be a problem with the setup not the person.

It's an important role and it just can't be given to anyone. There should be some kind of test for it. Show replays job candidates different camera angles on certain plays you know what the outcome after the people in NY reviewed it. Keep the examples as recent as necessary since the replay people in NY have gotten better at making the right calls over the years and give them a certain amount of time to make a decision on safe or out or nothing definitive. Do it a couple times with 20 different instances. Keep interviewing guys until you find someone with the right amount of observation and quick action skills who got like 19 out of 20 right. Don't hire a person who only gets 15 right if he is the top guy out of 5 candidates.

The person hired needs to have keen observational and baseball knowledge skills . If the replay people in NY have any guidelines on how to find the best people follow their lead.