Kimbrel’s Option

[poppysox]

11 hours ago, tray said:

I said that I did not like trading Cody Heuer and Madrigal to the Cubs for another Closer and I have not changed my mind about that.

There had to be other trades to get a set-up man that would not have ended up with Madrigal and Cody on the Cubs.  Cesar Hernandez made the trade hurt less but I was a big fan of what Madrigal could do as a table setter for our powerful line-up.

You and me both.  However...it is what it is and time will tell what the right thing to do was.

[Jerksticks]

I wonder if the end of this trade is doing Kimbrel a solid and trading him in the offseason so he can go somewhere else to rack up saves for his career stats.  
 

If that’s the case I’m sure the Sox will get an absolute haul for him this offseason.
 

Nice position to be in.   

[southsider2k5]

13 minutes ago, Tony said:

It was a fair value trade, especially given Madrigal is out for the entire season. 

Giving the ceilings of both Madrigal and Heuer, along with what the Sox are trying to accomplish in 2021 and 2022.......it was a perfectly reasonable use of assets. 

Honestly, it shocks me that they took Nick instead of Crochet if the story about them offering either to the Cubs is true.  I also still have a hard time believing this was the Cubs best offer.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

10 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Honestly, it shocks me that they took Nick instead of Crochet if the story about them offering either to the Cubs is true.  I also still have a hard time believing this was the Cubs best offer.

Because of the way we've handled Crochet, his career will be a relief pitcher.  I am sure his value in trade is affected

[Colome's Hat]

32 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I am not too concerned about gold gloves, especially in a 60 game season.  Cesar is a fine defender, maybe slightly better than Nick right now.  Certainly has not looked good in the field recently.  I think Madrigal has a much better bat.  IMO, Cesar isn't better than Madrigal, but he certainly is for 2021 since Madrigal can't play.  

I admit I am a big Madrigal and Heuer fan, but just felt like such an overpay for a guy on a market rate deal.  Oh well. Is what it is.   

He definitely had a bad game Sunday.  That being said, he's made some pretty incredible plays in the field that I'm not sure Madrigal would have made.  And there were some very routine plays that Madrigal botched.  I think Madrigal is a fine player.  Potentially an All Star.  He also has a very low ceiling.  Cesar is better this year and it's possible the White Sox sign a 2nd Baseman in the off season because it's a very deep market for 2nd Baseman.

[Colome's Hat]

11 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

Because of the way we've handled Crochet, his career will be a relief pitcher.  I am sure his value in trade is affected

The way we have handled Crochet is similar to the way Sale was handled.  Sale was actually used as a closer in his rookie season.

[ptatc]

16 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

Because of the way we've handled Crochet, his career will be a relief pitcher.  I am sure his value in trade is affected

No team would handle him differently, except maybe have these innings in the minors, due to his limited usage in college.

[Tony]

53 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

Because of the way we've handled Crochet, his career will be a relief pitcher.  I am sure his value in trade is affected

He's 22...come on man. 

I'm not saying he won't always be an RP for the Sox...but his career is not defined because of what has taken place over the last 1.5 seasons. 

[steveno89]

1 hour ago, ChiSox59 said:

I am not too concerned about gold gloves, especially in a 60 game season.  Cesar is a fine defender, maybe slightly better than Nick right now.  Certainly has not looked good in the field recently.  I think Madrigal has a much better bat.  IMO, Cesar isn't better than Madrigal, but he certainly is for 2021 since Madrigal can't play.  

I admit I am a big Madrigal and Heuer fan, but just felt like such an overpay for a guy on a market rate deal.  Oh well. Is what it is.   

Madrigal is one more injury away from his value taking a substantial hit. 

He broke his wrist in college, had shoulder surgery in 2020, and now hamstring surgery in 2021. At what point do you label a player as being really injury prone? 

Sox were wise to trade him while his value is still up.

[ChiSox59]

19 minutes ago, steveno89 said:

Madrigal is one more injury away from his value taking a substantial hit. 

He broke his wrist in college, had shoulder surgery in 2020, and now hamstring surgery in 2021. At what point do you label a player as being really injury prone? 

Sox were wise to trade him while his value is still up.

The Sox didn’t trade him when his value was up tho. It’s not like these are career threatening injuries. Obviously the trend is concerning, and I admitted as much in a previous post in this thread just today. 
 

The trade is what it is, and I hope Kimbrel leads the sox to a World Series or 2 the next two seasons. But to say the White Sox traded Madrigal while his value is “up” is an interesting take. He may very well get injured again next year, but unless it becomes career threatening, I don’t really see how one more injury devastates his value. He’ll come back and hit just like he always has. 

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, Jerksticks said:

I wonder if the end of this trade is doing Kimbrel a solid and trading him in the offseason so he can go somewhere else to rack up saves for his career stats.  
 

If that’s the case I’m sure the Sox will get an absolute haul for him this offseason.
 

Nice position to be in.   

Do you ever have a reasonable take on the Sox that isn’t filled with pro Sox hyperbole?  The Sox may trade him in the offseason and he will have value, but they won’t be getting a haul like the one they gave up.  I’ve defended the move, but it was a hefty price to pay and one we can’t only recoup with long playoff runs in 2021 & 2022.

[2Deep]

19 hours ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

Other than serious injury, there's no chance the Sox don't pick up the option. If the Sox budget doesn't allow for keeping both closers, someone will trade for him.

This is a good way to replenish the farm system if they wanted 

[Jerry McNertney]

I would like to see the Sox go for a guy who makes contact with his bat, seldom strikes out and hits for a high average. Preferably he would be a middle infielder. The Sox could offer Kimbrel for such a player, but the trading team would probably want a lot more than just him in the trade.

[mqr]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

Honestly, it shocks me that they took Nick instead of Crochet if the story about them offering either to the Cubs is true.  I also still have a hard time believing this was the Cubs best offer.

Madrigal and Crochet both don't really make a ton of sense for them in the current state too. They're miles away and both of them only stand to get them from 65 to 70 wins for the next handful of years. 

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, mqr said:

Madrigal and Crochet both don't really make a ton of sense for them in the current state too. They're miles away and both of them only stand to get them from 65 to 70 wins for the next handful of years. 

They should use build his innings in the minors, and maximize his potential in Garrett Crochet.  The Cubs shouldn't be in a hurry to win, as they will just piss away payroll trying.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

1 hour ago, ptatc said:

No team would handle him differently, except maybe have these innings in the minors, due to his limited usage in college.

By the time he would be worked up to having any legitimate innings, and no inning cap he'd have what, 2 years remaining on his contract?  

 

He absolutely should have been in Charlotte working as a SP going 3-5 innings a start and then been called up in September as a bullpen piece,  This shouldve gotten him to around 100 innings. 

 

He will be at 60ish innings this year.  Next year, likely the kopech plan, so 80 innings, then we start him and he works his way up to 120, then 160 the next year, then 2 years left before FA... Not hard to see why he will be a reliever because of the way we handled it. If this was our plan, then that was a bad pick at #11.  I have to imagine this wasn't our plan but Tony demanded he be in the bullpen.

[ChiSox59]

2 hours ago, Colome's Hat said:

He definitely had a bad game Sunday.  That being said, he's made some pretty incredible plays in the field that I'm not sure Madrigal would have made.  And there were some very routine plays that Madrigal botched.  I think Madrigal is a fine player.  Potentially an All Star.  He also has a very low ceiling.  Cesar is better this year and it's possible the White Sox sign a 2nd Baseman in the off season because it's a very deep market for 2nd Baseman.

Very low ceiling because he can't hit 25 homers in a lineup full of mashers?  Madrigal was literally the perfect complementary piece on this roster.  I don't really think a 3-4 WAR guy who plays good defense and competes for batting titles every year is a "low ceiling".  He's not going to be a superstar probably, but who cares.  He was a great fit for this roster that is already chockfull of stars. 

The only reason Cesar "is better this year" is because he's healthy, and Madrigal isn't.  But we didn't trade Madrigal for Cesar, so not really sure why that's the analysis, which also discounts next year, and 4 years after that in which Madrigal would be the 2B (2 year of which for dirt cheap).  Cesar and Nick could both still be here.  Sox could have traded Cesar in the offseason, made him a utility guy,  or just not picked up the option.  It wasn't an either or.  

Cesar is fine.  Sox will be be fine with him at 2B next year.  The Sox aren't signing another 2B for 2022 - Cesar is the guy. 

Again, is what it is.  If the Sox don't win a WS with Kimbrel, it was a very bad and shortsighted trade. 

Edited August 18, 2021 by ChiSox59

[mqr]

50 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

If the Sox don't win a WS with Kimbrel, it was a very bad and shortsighted trade. 

Idk, this feels pretty myopic.

If Madrigal continues to struggle to stay in the lineup, or the Sox successfully self scouted and realized they just traded when the last time anyone saw him was when he was on a heater that he won't match again, it's almost impossible for the trade to not be worth it. 

Adding Craig Kimbrel at the deadline, when they did, is basically the best possible thing they could have done in an effort to win a world series in 2021. 

Edited August 18, 2021 by mqr

[southsider2k5]

35 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Very low ceiling because he can't hit 25 homers in a lineup full of mashers?  Madrigal was literally the perfect complementary piece on this roster.  I don't really think a 3-4 WAR guy who plays good defense and competes for batting titles every year is a "low ceiling".  He's not going to be a superstar probably, but who cares.  He was a great fit for this roster that is already chockfull of stars. 

The only reason Cesar "is better this year" is because he's healthy, and Madrigal isn't.  But we didn't trade Madrigal for Cesar, so not really sure why that's the analysis, which also discounts next year, and 4 years after that in which Madrigal would be the 2B (2 year of which for dirt cheap).  Cesar and Nick could both still be here.  Sox could have traded Cesar in the offseason, made him a utility guy,  or just not picked up the option.  It wasn't an either or.  

Cesar is fine.  Sox will be be fine with him at 2B next year.  The Sox aren't signing another 2B for 2022 - Cesar is the guy. 

Again, is what it is.  If the Sox don't win a WS with Kimbrel, it was a very bad and shortsighted trade. 

At this stage it is also worth mentioning that even if Madrigal is a better player, Hernandez stays healthy.   If you look back at full seasons, the lowest total he has since 2015 is 127, which was his first full season.  He has seasons of 161 (2Xs) and 155, in addition to the 128 and 127.  He was also 58 out of 60 in 2020.  So he is at 113 of 120 this year, 58 of 60 in 2020 and 161 of 162 in 2018&19.  If nothing else, even if you give Madrigal a bigger peak, the fact that Hernandez will play essentially every single day means his full season production will have a large advantage over a guy like Nicky who hasn't show the propensity to stay in the line up.

[ShoeLessRob]

1 hour ago, Jerry McNertney said:

I would like to see the Sox go for a guy who makes contact with his bat, seldom strikes out and hits for a high average. Preferably he would be a middle infielder. The Sox could offer Kimbrel for such a player, but the trading team would probably want a lot more than just him in the trade.

Sooo Madrigal?

[ChiSox59]

32 minutes ago, mqr said:

Idk, this feels pretty myopic.

If Madrigal continues to struggle to stay in the lineup, or the Sox successfully self scouted and realized they just traded when the last time anyone saw him was when he was on a heater that he won't match again, it's almost impossible for the trade to not be worth it. 

Adding Craig Kimbrel at the deadline, when they did, is basically the best possible thing they could have done in an effort to win a world series in 2021. 

Kimbrel helps a lot in the postseason if he's pitching well.  Agreed.  

I am not ready to just write-off Madrigal as some injury prone guy who will never stay healthy quite yet like some people here seem to be.  I could just as easily do the same analysis on Eloy and Robert, but no one wants to do that.  Madrigal's best days are ahead of him - I am fairly certain of that.  

Got to give to get.  Is what it is.  Still don't like the trade, and probably won't unless Kimbrel is a big time piece to a World Series.  But I also tend to take a longer view on the Sox than most.  I want to be good for this 5-7+ year window.  Not push all chips in to win in 21/22. We're a better team in 21 than we were pre-deadline.  Our future lost a big contributor though, and a bullpen piece that I think we're all going to moan about down the road. 

Edited August 18, 2021 by ChiSox59

[mqr]

17 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Kimbrel helps a lot in the postseason if he's pitching well.  Agreed.  

I am not ready to just write-off Madrigal as some injury prone guy who will never stay healthy quite yet like some people here seem to be.  I could just as easily do the same analysis on Eloy and Robert, but no one wants to do that.  Madrigal's best days are ahead of him - I am fairly certain of that.  

Got to give to get.  Is what it is.  Still don't like the trade, and probably won't unless Kimbrel is a big time piece to a World Series.  But I also tend to take a longer view on the Sox than most.  I want to be good for this 5-7+ year window.  Not push all chips in to win in 21/22. We're a better team in 21 than we were pre-deadline.  Our future lost a big contributor though, and a bullpen piece that I think we're all going to moan about down the road. 

I'm not writing him off either, there's just a hundred scenarios where it was worth the shot that don't end in a white sox world series. They've increased they're certainty in 2021 and 2022. If they aren't still good in 2025 and 2026 it almost certainly isn't because Nick Madrigal is gone. 

Edited August 18, 2021 by mqr

[southsider2k5]

2 hours ago, Jerry McNertney said:

I would like to see the Sox go for a guy who makes contact with his bat, seldom strikes out and hits for a high average. Preferably he would be a middle infielder. The Sox could offer Kimbrel for such a player, but the trading team would probably want a lot more than just him in the trade.

I would rather try to win a World Series this year and next, but hey, to each their own.

[southsider2k5]

23 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Kimbrel helps a lot in the postseason if he's pitching well.  Agreed.  

I am not ready to just write-off Madrigal as some injury prone guy who will never stay healthy quite yet like some people here seem to be.  I could just as easily do the same analysis on Eloy and Robert, but no one wants to do that.  Madrigal's best days are ahead of him - I am fairly certain of that.  

Got to give to get.  Is what it is.  Still don't like the trade, and probably won't unless Kimbrel is a big time piece to a World Series.  But I also tend to take a longer view on the Sox than most.  I want to be good for this 5-7+ year window.  Not push all chips in to win in 21/22. We're a better team in 21 than we were pre-deadline.  Our future lost a big contributor though, and a bullpen piece that I think we're all going to moan about down the road. 

I have been all about making sure we can sustain this, but I don't see Nick Madrigal as some irreplaceable guy.

[Ozzie’s Cuban Cigar]

8 hours ago, Jerry McNertney said:

I would like to see the Sox go for a guy who makes contact with his bat, seldom strikes out and hits for a high average. Preferably he would be a middle infielder. The Sox could offer Kimbrel for such a player, but the trading team would probably want a lot more than just him in the trade.

So maybe te Cubs would take him back for Madrigal?