Vaughn's defense

[ron883]

This guy has gone from 1st, to RF, to LF, with some 3B and 2B in there. For a long time 1st baseman, his ability to adjust to LF THEN RF is astonishing. He may not be quick but he looks like a natural fielder. He's done absolutely everything you could ask him to do. It's a shame they couldn't extend him.

Do you feel confident with him being the RF of the future now? Can Eloy-Robert-Vaughn work long term?

[Colome's Hat]

6 minutes ago, ron883 said:

This guy has gone from 1st, to RF, to LF, with some 3B and 2B in there. For a long time 1st baseman, his ability to adjust to LF THEN RF is astonishing. He may not be quick but he looks like a natural fielder. He's done absolutely everything you could ask him to do. It's a shame they couldn't extend him.

Do you feel confident with him being the RF of the future now? Can Eloy-Robert-Vaughn work long term?

Yes.  I think he's the future Right Fielder.  Probably something he'll perfect in the off-season.

[South Side Hit Men]

I'd prefer they muddle through one more year and transition Eloy to 1B in 2023, or at least begin the transition if Jose signs another extension, which would be fine if reasonable if he's playing the same through the end of next year.

Vaughn can be a good enough LF, I'm assuming the Sox will bring someone up or can acquire someone who could better fill RF in terms of defense. I understand at least a third of all outs are now strikeouts, so OF defense and particularly corner OF defense isn't as important as in the past, but every small difference counts, and that ball in the gap or the runner held at 3rd or gunned at the plate can still make a difference in a ballgame.

[mmmmmbeeer]

Dude is going to be worth a ton when he hits FA given he's carrying a well above average hit tool with the flexibility to play so many positions competently.  

[MackowiakYakYak]

25 minutes ago, mmmmmbeeer said:

Dude is going to be worth a ton when he hits FA given he's carrying a well above average hit tool with the flexibility to play so many positions competently.  

He’s competent in the corner outfield and 1B. I don’t think we’ve seen enough to say he can pass as a 3B or 2B at the major league level. LF/RF/1B while hitting righty doesn’t get you paid necessarily, which is great for us. 

[ChiSox59]

Its not exactly pretty out there, but he's very effective.  He has graded out as an above average LF already, which is amazing.  Not sure he's there in RF yet, but he'll get there.  

He may well be the RF moving forward, but really would prefer to keep Eloy at DH most of the time and sign Conforto this offseason.  Knowing the Sox, they'll go with a DH type tho. 

[Colome's Hat]

1 hour ago, ChiSox59 said:

Its not exactly pretty out there, but he's very effective.  He has graded out as an above average LF already, which is amazing.  Not sure he's there in RF yet, but he'll get there.  

He may well be the RF moving forward, but really would prefer to keep Eloy at DH most of the time and sign Conforto this offseason.  Knowing the Sox, they'll go with a DH type tho. 

If Eloy can get better at LF and not hurt himself, I don't have a problem with him being in LF.  Eventually would like to see him transition to 1st though.

[ShoeLessRob]

4 minutes ago, Colome's Hat said:

If Eloy can get better at LF and not hurt himself, I don't have a problem with him being in LF.  Eventually would like to see him transition to 1st though.

I don’t really understand this sentiment, I would argue that first base is a harder position to play and is usually involved almost every play (minus strikeouts). Left field helps limit the amount of times Eloy can be involved in the play. He’s a DH in LF.

[poppysox]

20 minutes ago, Colome's Hat said:

If Eloy can get better at LF and not hurt himself, I don't have a problem with him being in LF.  Eventually would like to see him transition to 1st though.

I believe Vaughn will be the future 1st baseman.  The first baseman handles the ball more than anyone other than the pitcher and catcher.  LF has traditionally been a good place to hide a less-than-stellar defensive player.  I actually think Eloy looks just fine out there.

[Two-Gun Pete]

1 hour ago, ChiSox59 said:

Its not exactly pretty out there, but he's very effective.  He has graded out as an above average LF already, which is amazing. 

Not that defensive stats have any context until you have a few years' data, but where are you seeing "above average?"

He's negative in both UZR and DRS at LF. He's also negative in both UZR and DRS at 1B as well: Vaughn on FG

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Not that defensive stats have any context until you have a few years' data, but where are you seeing "above average?"

He's negative in both UZR and DRS at LF. He's also negative in both UZR and DRS at 1B as well: Vaughn on FG

Here's the thing.  If you take the MLB LF's with at least 500 innings, and line them all up defensively according to Fangraphs defensive ratings, Andrew Vaughn is actually 6th out of the 19 qualifiers.  Only the top 2! have a positive defensive rating LF.  By definition that would make him above "average" he is even now above the middle of the pack level of defense.

 

[chitownsportsfan]

I think there has been maybe one play all year where I thought "what a horrible play".  That's pretty remarkable.  He's below average in speed but he gets good jumps for the most part and hopefully with a little more work he can get his arm up to average, at least in LF.

[Two-Gun Pete]

10 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Here's the thing.  If you take the MLB LF's with at least 500 innings, and line them all up defensively according to Fangraphs defensive ratings, Andrew Vaughn is actually 6th out of the 19 qualifiers.  Only the top 2! have a positive defensive rating LF.  By definition that would make him above "average" he is even now above the middle of the pack level of defense.

See, thats interesting. 

That would infer that the formulai for DRS & UZR are either flawed/outdated, or that most teams treat LF as a permanently-platooned role in a team.

That a guy is "negative" by a metric that attempts to define players' defense relative to an "average" player's defense, but is above-average compared to his peers is telling. And, in no way is this to impugn Vaughn by any means. 

 

Rather, we'd have to figure out why most teams have LFers who are net negatives at defense nowadays. Maybe MLB teams see LF as a "second DH" by the way defense is valued there?

[SoxAce]

This is Vaughn's first rodeo at a new position when he's played 1B his whole life. He's putting up better defensive stats than Eloy for example (minus the sample size this year) and Eloy has played OF his whole life. Speaks volumes to Vaughn's talent.

Edited August 18, 2021 by SoxAce

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

See, thats interesting. 

That would infer that the formulai for DRS & UZR are either flawed/outdated, or that most teams treat LF as a permanently-platooned role in a team.

That a guy is "negative" by a metric that attempts to define players' defense relative to an "average" player's defense, but is above-average compared to his peers is telling. And, in no way is this to impugn Vaughn by any means. 

 

Rather, we'd have to figure out why most teams have LFers who are net negatives at defense nowadays. Maybe MLB teams see LF as a "second DH" by the way defense is valued there?

No idea what is going on there, but if you look at the OF position by position, with 500 innings minimum, 2 of 19 LF are above 0, 5 of 21 RF are above 0, and 13 of 18 CF are above 0.  Totalled up that makes 20 of 58 OFs with above 500 innings who are a positive defensive OF according to fangraphs.

[CentralChamps21]

Just now, SoxAce said:

This is Vaughn's first rodeo at a new position when he's played 1B his whole life. He's putting up better defensive stats tha Eloy for example and Eloy has played OF his whole life. Speaks volumes to Vaughn's talent.

I've never been to a rodeo, but the way that phrase gets used makes it seem like something you should be able to master by your second one.

[Two-Gun Pete]

5 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

No idea what is going on there, but if you look at the OF position by position, with 500 innings minimum, 2 of 19 LF are above 0, 5 of 21 RF are above 0, and 13 of 18 CF are above 0.  Totalled up that makes 20 of 58 OFs with above 500 innings who are a positive defensive OF according to fangraphs.

I just got done looking at the same thing. Thats odd.

 

Now, as it pertains to the subject of this thread, I'm not about to call Vaughn's defense as "good," or "above average," just yet. I'd definitely call it "cromulent," and be satisfied that he's shown adaptability, versatility, and the ability to learn.

He may yet become "above average" at some point, one might hope.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

13 hours ago, ron883 said:

This guy has gone from 1st, to RF, to LF, with some 3B and 2B in there. For a long time 1st baseman, his ability to adjust to LF THEN RF is astonishing. He may not be quick but he looks like a natural fielder. He's done absolutely everything you could ask him to do. It's a shame they couldn't extend him.

Do you feel confident with him being the RF of the future now? Can Eloy-Robert-Vaughn work long term?

Depends on how quickly he losses what little speed he has of his youth. There's still really not much defensive data on him. Fangraphs has him mostly in the negative area for his arm and overall OF defense and OAA has him a -2 which isn't too bad considering there are a lot of guys playing the OF who are worse. Basically OAA has him 0 for 14 on plays that he had a 0-50% chance of making the catch and 8 of 10 on balls he had a 51-75% chance of catching. 23 of 26 on balls he had 76-95% chance of catching.

[soulfly]

34 minutes ago, SoxAce said:

This is Vaughn's first rodeo at a new position when he's played 1B his whole life. He's putting up better defensive stats than Eloy for example (minus the sample size this year) and Eloy has played OF his whole life. Speaks volumes to Vaughn's talent.

Vaughn needs to be in LF, period.  Eloy should be the DH the majority of the time, with a few days in left, at most.  Vaughn is legit.  To be doing what he has out there already with how little he played the position previously...  One hell of an athlete. 

[mqr]

I have zero doubt that trying Eloy at first is a god awful idea. 

[Bob Sacamano]

16 minutes ago, mqr said:

I have zero doubt that trying Eloy at first is a god awful idea. 

Agreed.

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Not that defensive stats have any context until you have a few years' data, but where are you seeing "above average?"

He's negative in both UZR and DRS at LF. He's also negative in both UZR and DRS at 1B as well: Vaughn on FG

What @southsider2k5 said.

[mqr]

1 hour ago, chitownsportsfan said:

I think there has been maybe one play all year where I thought "what a horrible play".  That's pretty remarkable.  He's below average in speed but he gets good jumps for the most part and hopefully with a little more work he can get his arm up to average, at least in LF.

I can think of two and it's the ball eeeeeearly in the season that didn't look all that bad, but most LFs are probably getting to it, and his first game in right where he just dropped one. That's about it. 

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

I just got done looking at the same thing. Thats odd.

 

Now, as it pertains to the subject of this thread, I'm not about to call Vaughn's defense as "good," or "above average," just yet. I'd definitely call it "cromulent," and be satisfied that he's shown adaptability, versatility, and the ability to learn.

He may yet become "above average" at some point, one might hope.

Personally I think his lack of speed and quickness will keep him from being a guy that the statistics like.  He does run straight and clean routes, and seems to react well to the ball off of the bat.  Even if he is never a 0 level defensive OF, he is a guy who isn't going to actively "hurt" you.  If his bat develops the way we all hope it will, you are more than fine with stashing him in the OF with this level of defense.

[gogosox1959]

Vaughn is really only an outfielder or DH.  His background is 1st, but he is generously listed as 6'0".   A bigger target with more stretch range is needed.  More typically: Abreu is 6'3";  Jimenez is 6'4";  Sheets is 6'5";  Lamb is 6'3"; even Grandal is 6'2".

Anyone else think that Vaughn looks like a catcher?   He also has the smarts for it, (Cal-Berkley).