Owners propose 180m luxury tax, 100m salary floor

[mqr]

4 hours ago, TheCommish said:

Players salaries are not too high right now... however, if the owners get what they want and stop the increase in salary then they better lower ticket costs for the fans, otherwise I'd rather see the owners money going to the players. If they just pocket the extra revenue then that's wrong. 

Yeah that's not how that works, revenue drives salary, not vice versa. At least it should, it often doesn't anyway but the players getting paid less does not reduce prices of anything

Edited August 19, 2021 by mqr

[oldsox]

2 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Do you believe that this should be the case, that they shouldn't have to disclose their finances while trying to drive down costs claiming biblical losses?  I know you are very offended right now at my cynical approach to the owners so please let me know how it should go in your opinion 

First, you don't offend me on this issue.  The only time you pissed me off was when you called another poster a Racist when you not only did not know him, but you didn't know the facts of the issue at the time, whatever it was.

Second, I wouldn't mind a bit if owners disclosed finances.  If I were an owner, that might change.  One thing that has always irritated me is when they lose money but at the same time pay themselves a huge stipend, just to be able to reflect a loss.  I wouldn't be surprised if Jerry does that.  It's almost like money laundering.  Not quite, but almost.  In a perfect world the union should be able to see the cover sheet of the teams' tax returns, excluding all the complicated schedules.  This won't happen for a lot of reasons.  As it stands right now, I really don't know what the owners disclose in their private negotiations.

[raBBit]

29 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

They don't even let them look at the checkbook so what's your point 

Look at the checkbook? I don't know what that means. Do you mean financials? And that you think the owners should release private/asymmetric information to help the union? 

[RibbieRubarb]

14 hours ago, oldsox said:

Can you possibly get more cynical?

Its still early...

[Kyyle23]

10 minutes ago, raBBit said:

Look at the checkbook? I don't know what that means. Do you mean financials? And that you think the owners should release private/asymmetric information to help the union? 

I know its financials, Oldsox said "should they turn over the check book to the union?" And I played off of that.

I know they won't turn it over but every time we get here they claim losses and refuse to show proof 

[Kyyle23]

14 minutes ago, oldsox said:

First, you don't offend me on this issue.  The only time you pissed me off was when you called another poster a Racist when you not only did not know him, but you didn't know the facts of the issue at the time, whatever it was.

Second, I wouldn't mind a bit if owners disclosed finances.  If I were an owner, that might change.  One thing that has always irritated me is when they lose money but at the same time pay themselves a huge stipend, just to be able to reflect a loss.  I wouldn't be surprised if Jerry does that.  It's almost like money laundering.  Not quite, but almost.  In a perfect world the union should be able to see the cover sheet of the teams' tax returns, excluding all the complicated schedules.  This won't happen for a lot of reasons.  As it stands right now, I really don't know what the owners disclose in their private negotiations.

Ok first unrelated point to our "discussion".  There was an entire thread of Tray dog whistling bullshit like that Tony must not have liked Mercedes music/haircut/personality etc.  you can go back and look at it if you want I don't care what you think about what I said, I am not apologizing.  Also it really has nothing to do with this so if you want to address it again then feel free to PM me

the second stuff is exactly what I was saying to rabbit just now, it sucks that they are claiming losses while never paying for their own stadiums that they profit heavily off of, they barely pay minor leaguers that they heavily profit off of, and they have been cutting cable deals all over the map that really doesn't make its way back to the players.  And let's put the money pie sharing aside for just a second and talk about how the MLB does the absolute bare minimum to grow their own game and then goes and blames the players for it.  It's fucked up.

[raBBit]

32 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

I know its financials, Oldsox said "should they turn over the check book to the union?" And I played off of that.

I know they won't turn it over but every time we get here they claim losses and refuse to show proof 

Sorry wasn't following the back and forth with Oldsox.

So what's the point of bringing it up if you know they won't turn it over? The owners have all the risk and the players have none. It's not a level playing field. Your bias towards the union doesn't mean the owners should release their private financials. 

EDIT: And every time the owners claim losses? You mean just this most recent time when a worldwide pandemic didn't allow spectators at their entertainment events? Believe me. At least in Chicago baseball, the claims of losses are not just claims, it's the truth. 

Edited August 19, 2021 by raBBit

[ptatc]

24 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Ok first unrelated point to our "discussion".  There was an entire thread of Tray dog whistling bullshit like that Tony must not have liked Mercedes music/haircut/personality etc.  you can go back and look at it if you want I don't care what you think about what I said, I am not apologizing.  Also it really has nothing to do with this so if you want to address it again then feel free to PM me

the second stuff is exactly what I was saying to rabbit just now, it sucks that they are claiming losses while never paying for their own stadiums that they profit heavily off of, they barely pay minor leaguers that they heavily profit off of, and they have been cutting cable deals all over the map that really doesn't make its way back to the players.  And let's put the money pie sharing aside for just a second and talk about how the MLB does the absolute bare minimum to grow their own game and then goes and blames the players for it.  It's fucked up.

Many of the owners do pay for their own stadiums and this is where they make a large profit. 

They don't heavily profit from the minor leagues as they don't actually "own" them.

I think the salary floor is a great way to grow the game as it will create less tanking and create a more competitive league. The idea of increased number of the teams also generates more interest with more teams in competition but it was the player who didn't want it not the owners.

[southsider2k5]

https://cupofcoffee.substack.com/p/cup-of-coffee-august-19-2021

 

[ptatc]

16 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

https://cupofcoffee.substack.com/p/cup-of-coffee-august-19-2021

 

Even if this arrangement is agreed to, you know these won't be the final numbers. It's the start of negotiations so the floor will lower and the ceiling will raise. Using these numbers to declare that the concept isn't a good one isn't dealing in reality.

[raBBit]

1 hour ago, Kyyle23 said:

Ok first unrelated point to our "discussion".  There was an entire thread of Tray dog whistling bullshit like that Tony must not have liked Mercedes music/haircut/personality etc.  you can go back and look at it if you want I don't care what you think about what I said, I am not apologizing.  Also it really has nothing to do with this so if you want to address it again then feel free to PM me

the second stuff is exactly what I was saying to rabbit just now,

1 - it sucks that they are claiming losses while

2 - never paying for their own stadiums that they profit heavily off of

3 -they barely pay minor leaguers that they heavily profit off of

4 - they have been cutting cable deals all over the map that really doesn't make its way back to the players.  

5 - And let's put the money pie sharing aside for just a second and talk about how the MLB does the absolute bare minimum to grow their own game and then goes and blames the players for it.  It's fucked up.

1 - It seems like you are implying that clubs didn't have losses last year. Do you have any evidence of that or is that just what you would prefer to be the case?

2 - Never is an absolute word. There are teams that pay for their stadium. I mean look at the differences in the way the City/State have treated/supported the Sox and Cubs here in Chicago. Completely different situations.

There are teams that pay some sort of fee to whatever municipality supported their stadium. It's all on a case-by-case basis.  Additionally, if they are profiting so much off the stadiums, why don't you buy the fact that there were losses last year when no fans were allowed at the stadiums? How do structures profit without attendees?

3 - They don't pay most minor leaguers anything. They don't own the minor league teams in most cases. Barely anyone is profiting off of anything in minor league baseball. This is just wrong on every level.

4 - If they're making cable deals and it doesn't make its way back to the players you should have an issue with the union who is not getting their players a fair share of the revenue. 

5 - This is your opinion and while I may be inclined to agree at some level, what does this have to do with the CBA? Are the owners required to "grow the game" for the players? They certainly are incentivized to grow the game for their own business. You're acting like they don't want to grow the game which obviously isn't true. Idk what they're blaming on the players but this isn't a bargaining issue. 

Just seems like across the board your opinions and points are coming from emotion rather than the facts of the matter. I could be wrong on some of this stuff and feel free to support any of your points but 1-3 are undoubtedly incorrect.

[mac9001]

There's one team over $180m and 14 teams under $100m. The players probably say no on principle, but they probably come out on top with a floor that high. 

[Balta1701]

8 hours ago, mac9001 said:

There's one team over $180m and 14 teams under $100m. The players probably say no on principle, but they probably come out on top with a floor that high. 

I don’t think that’s quite right. Spotrac has 6 even before you count the extra costs like health insurance and leveling out contracts that go into the luxury tax number

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/

[poppysox]

I would be in favor of a lower cap but the union will never take a step back.  Therefore, I would freeze the cap (maybe a hard cap) while raising the floor to the highest possible number say 125 million.  Baseball needs to get away from the current situation of half the teams in baseball tanking and a few teams having a totally unfair advantage of spending 5 times that of their competitors.  

[MackowiakYakYak]

On 8/19/2021 at 7:51 AM, ScooterMcGee said:

I wonder if this will be the end of the rebuild era? 

Something definitely needs to be done though. The White Sox are the only team in their division not tanking...

To start the year the Minnesota and Cleveland were both supposed to be competitive. Minnesota was spending and Cleveland was doing their constant cheap retooling. At the start of the season it was a three horse race and the Sox and Twins were 1 and 2 but people thought Cleveland could be sneaky good. Then when you’re half way done with the season and locked out of a playoff spot it makes sense to trade veterans for future pieces. That isn’t tanking from either of those teams.

Detroit and Kansas City are both coming out of their tanks. Detroit has been bad since 2017 and Kansas City since 2018. I think they’re bad teams that aren’t ready to compete, but they aren’t dropping the best talent from their roster to become good in the distant future. They are trying to be good soon.

[MackowiakYakYak]

I disagree that anything dramatic needs to be done. The perennially terrible teams are the ones that struggle to identify and develop their talent so when they get a good player they don’t have a full team to field around them. Pittsburgh can never field a complete roster of competitive players because so few of their prospects pan out while in the organization. Colorado, before trading Arenado, spent $250m+ in free agency to get negative value out of those players.
Tanking happens because an organization is bad and can’t develop the talent. Cleveland, Oakland, and Tampa Bay have been competitive while being incredibly cheap. Teams like the Angels, Rockies, and most of the NL East have been expensive at times while not having much to show for it. The Sox post-05 until the rebuild were a fairly expensive team but had nothing to show for it because they were poorly run. Flawed organizations make bad teams and require tanking. Just look at the Cubs compared to the Cardinals.

[GradMc]

On 8/18/2021 at 8:18 PM, reiks12 said:

180 million how laughable, the owners are really pathetic. When the strike comes its going to be framed in a way to blame the players but the owners are real turds and responsible for 99% of it.

And Dear Leader resides on 35th and Shields.

[GradMc]

On 8/18/2021 at 8:18 PM, reiks12 said:

180 million how laughable, the owners are really pathetic. When the strike comes its going to be framed in a way to blame the players but the owners are real turds and responsible for 99% of it.

And Dear Leader resides on 35th and Shields.

[southsider2k5]

33 minutes ago, GradMc said:

And Dear Leader resides on 35th and Shields.

And yet, here you are.

[WBWSF]

I realize that most White Sox fans are caught up in this season. Still, I'm starting to worry about the 2022 MLB season.  Reading some of these comments about a strike/lockout is disturbing. Hopefully the owners and players can work something out. Another baseball strike would really harm the sport.

[poppysox]

If the average major league salary is 4.3 million but the median salary is 1.5 million...that difference is because 20% of the players get 80% of the money or thereabout.  Need to fix that imbalance in order to have a healthy game.  I think it's fair to have a much higher minimum wage but ridiculous to be having players making in excess of 30 million.  How much more are fans willing to pay for a ticket, parking, beer, and a hotdog?