Do the White Sox need an offensive adjustment?

[VAfan]

Here's an interesting tidbit from the latest ESPN power ranking, which puts the Sox 6th. 

Quote

Eloy Jimenez made his return to the White Sox lineup with his season debut on July 26. Up to that point, Chicago ranked fifth in runs per game, sixth in average and second in on-base percentage. They ranked just 25th in home runs and 27th in runs via the home run. Since Jimenez's return, the White Sox have added additional longball threats to the mix like trade acquisition Cesar Hernandez and injury returnee Luis Robert. But since Jimenez' debut, Chicago has ranked 11th in runs per game, 21st in average and 19th in on-base percentage. They have also ranked fourth in homers and first in runs via the home run. None of this is to lay anything at the feet of Jimenez, who has been terrific since coming back. It's more to suggest at some point before the postseason, Chicago might want to blend some of the diversity of their pre-August offense with some of the firepower of what they've done lately.-- Doolittle

I noticed in the Yankee series that a lot of the players were chasing junk out of the zone.  Is there something to this?

Discuss. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

54 minutes ago, VAfan said:

Here's an interesting tidbit from the latest ESPN power ranking, which puts the Sox 6th. 

I noticed in the Yankee series that a lot of the players were chasing junk out of the zone.  Is there something to this?

Discuss. 

Sox are missing  the .390 OBP of Grandal and the .350 OBP of Madrigal and Hernandez has been slumping for 2 weeks. Madrigal also had a higher OPS and OPS+ than Yoan has now . K's in scoring opportunities has hurt recently . Bat to ball skills do help.

However we're seeing many guys given time off. Leury and Engel on the IL. Collins and Goodwin in the lineup against a lefty. These things do need to be done occasionally since you never know when a few extra AB's against the same handed thrower might help in a crucial situation when the bench might be short late in an extra inning game when you don't start with a runner on 2nd base in the playoffs.

Anderson, Robert ,Abreu , Jimenez, Vaughn are all hitting well. They probably should be grouped together more often and let the bottom of the lineup fend for themselves. Moncada and Hernandez need to be moved down and Robert up. Add Grandal to the top 5 and the top 6 in the lineup should be golden.

Edited August 20, 2021 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Bob Sacamano]

Grandal will definitely help. Moncada is becoming frustrating and should move down.

I posted this in the game thread yesterday, but pretty crazy how we were a Machado signing away from Moncada being the long-term 2B.

[BamaDoc]

I get frustrated by modern two strike approaches. Also man on third less than two out failures. Not sure how we rank there and I sometimes forget there is another team trying to stop us. I did look up and was shocked that we don’t lead the world in gidp. 

[KennyPowers]

37 minutes ago, manbearpuig said:

Grandal will definitely help. Moncada is becoming frustrating and should move down.

I posted this in the game thread yesterday, but pretty crazy how we were a Machado signing away from Moncada being the long-term 2B.

I disagree. Lets try to get Moncada going. Move him up in the lineup. He hits best (with protection) when he's in the 2 or 3 hole..

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

8 minutes ago, KennyPowers said:

I disagree. Lets try to get Moncada going. Move him up in the lineup. He hits best (with protection) when he's in the 2 or 3 hole..

 

I disagree with your disagreement. Let him prove he belongs at the top before you move him there. A top six of Tim, Yas, Vaughn, Eloy, Abreu, Robert has no room for Moncada's struggles with K's and his power stroke. He hasn't been a good hitter since pre Covid.

[EloyJenkins]

12 minutes ago, KennyPowers said:

I disagree. Lets try to get Moncada going. Move him up in the lineup. He hits best (with protection) when he's in the 2 or 3 hole..

 

100%. Moncada 2nd. Helps add some pitches between Anderson and Abreu's aggressive swinging also. 
TA / Moncada / Abreu / Eloy / Grandal / Vaughn / Robert / Goodwin-Engel RF / Hernandez (strictly to get on before TA lineup flip)

[Bob Sacamano]

14 minutes ago, EloyJenkins said:

100%. Moncada 2nd. Helps add some pitches between Anderson and Abreu's aggressive swinging also. 
TA / Moncada / Abreu / Eloy / Grandal / Vaughn / Robert / Goodwin-Engel RF / Hernandez (strictly to get on before TA lineup flip)

He needs to go back to being more aggressive again.

[Tnetennba]

12 minutes ago, EloyJenkins said:

100%. Moncada 2nd. Helps add some pitches between Anderson and Abreu's aggressive swinging also. 
TA / Moncada / Abreu / Eloy / Grandal / Vaughn / Robert / Goodwin-Engel RF / Hernandez (strictly to get on before TA lineup flip)

Maybe its just my personal bias, but he seems to thrive hitting 2nd and struggle hitting lower - but I don't have any evidence to back that up.  His OBP still plays well ahead of the heart of the order even if he's not hitting for much power. 

[gusguyman]

It’s hard to understand how professional hitters can be this unproductive. The best teams have a more disciplined approach. The slugging and OPS numbers don’t lie.

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, gusguyman said:

It’s hard to understand how professional hitters can be this unproductive. The best teams have a more disciplined approach. The slugging and OPS numbers don’t lie.

 Hi Cohen!

[RG23SoxFan]

30 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I disagree with your disagreement. Let him prove he belongs at the top before you move him there. A top six of Tim, Yas, Vaughn, Eloy, Abreu, Robert has no room for Moncada's struggles with K's and his power stroke. He hasn't been a good hitter since pre Covid.

I agree with you.  I wouldn't mind seeing Robert moved up to leadoff.  So maybe Robert/TA/Abreu/Eloy/Grandal/Vaughn.

[Tnetennba]

7 minutes ago, gusguyman said:

It’s hard to understand how professional hitters can be this unproductive. The best teams have a more disciplined approach. The slugging and OPS numbers don’t lie.

The number of poor At Bats and poor approaches is pretty evident.  What the answer is I don't know.

[Balta1701]

So, while Grandal has been missing and that is a big loss, I'm surprised by the drop in OBP. Looking at it, guys who are contributing to that and why:

Cesar - we just had a thread about him getting on base, but now he's down to a .315 OBP/.197 average in August. I don't know him well enough yet to have full confidence this will recover, but I also don't see why it won't.

Abreu - .342 OBP in August. I think by including July 26-30 you're including a 1 for 20 stretch for Abreu that makes his numbers look worse than they actually are by selectively including a bad stretch.

Brian Goodwin - .318 OBP in August. Andrew Vaughn conveniently is at .423. I have a solution to suggest.
Jake Lamb - .294 OBP since returning from the IL. I have a solution to suggest.

Luis Robert - .412 OBP since returning from the IL. I am disappointed he has not hit a ball 488 feet yet.

Tim Anderson - .304 OBP in August. .304 batting average. You read it right, he's hitting .304, but hasn't taken a walk this month.

Yoan Moncada - .190 average, .299 OBP in August. Here is a guy legitimately struggling.

 

Ok, summary - some of this is luck. Abreu and Anderson are hitting, but their OBPs are weird over that stretch.

Cesar is genuinely not hitting that great right now, nor is Moncada. Giving them extra time off moves a bad player like Mendick or Lamb into the lineup, but that could be justified if it helps them get out out of the doldrums. They may also get out of it on their own. That's one we can think about as something someone needs to solve.

Tony LaRussa needs to play a couple of his favorite platoon guys less.

Get Grandal back, and you replace a bottom of the barrel OBP with a high level one. 

That's my outline.

[Quin]

8 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

So, while Grandal has been missing and that is a big loss, I'm surprised by the drop in OBP. Looking at it, guys who are contributing to that and why:

Cesar - we just had a thread about him getting on base, but now he's down to a .315 OBP/.197 average in August. I don't know him well enough yet to have full confidence this will recover, but I also don't see why it won't.

Abreu - .342 OBP in August. I think by including July 26-30 you're including a 1 for 20 stretch for Abreu that makes his numbers look worse than they actually are by selectively including a bad stretch.

Brian Goodwin - .318 OBP in August. Andrew Vaughn conveniently is at .423. I have a solution to suggest.
Jake Lamb - .294 OBP since returning from the IL. I have a solution to suggest.

Luis Robert - .412 OBP since returning from the IL. I am disappointed he has not hit a ball 488 feet yet.

Tim Anderson - .304 OBP in August. .304 batting average. You read it right, he's hitting .304, but hasn't taken a walk this month.

Yoan Moncada - .190 average, .299 OBP in August. Here is a guy legitimately struggling.

 

Ok, summary - some of this is luck. Abreu and Anderson are hitting, but their OBPs are weird over that stretch.

Cesar is genuinely not hitting that great right now, nor is Moncada. Giving them extra time off moves a bad player like Mendick or Lamb into the lineup, but that could be justified if it helps them get out out of the doldrums. They may also get out of it on their own. That's one we can think about as something someone needs to solve.

Tony LaRussa needs to play a couple of his favorite platoon guys less.

Get Grandal back, and you replace a bottom of the barrel OBP with a high level one. 

That's my outline.

You're telling me. That's my pick for MLB's moonblast contest.

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, Quin said:

You're telling me. That's my pick for MLB's moonblast contest.

Ditto. 488 was my distance guess. 

[Jerry McNertney]

The Sox have an unbalanced offense, way too many strikeouts and potential designated hitters. They should try to get Madrigal back in the off season, if healthy. The Cubs will want a bundle for Madrigal, and rightly so. A guy like Madrigal who'll probably hit .300+ for a decade or more and who seldom strikes out is just what the Sox need. Trading Madrigal for a super expensive 33 year-old inconsistent set-up man has to be one of the dumbest trades in Sox history. The Sox may have to give up Vaughn and Crochet, maybe Kopech instead of Crochet. If The Sox didn't essentially give Madrigal away, they wouldn't have to trade away such talent to get him back.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, Jerry McNertney said:

The Sox have an unbalanced offense, way too many strikeouts and potential designated hitters. They should try to get Madrigal back in the off season, if healthy. The Cubs will want a bundle for Madrigal, and rightly so. A guy like Madrigal who'll probably hit .300+ for a decade or more and who seldom strikes out is just what the Sox need. Trading Madrigal for a super expensive 33 year-old inconsistent set-up man has to be one of the dumbest trades in Sox history. The Sox may have to give up Vaughn and Crochet, maybe Kopech instead of Crochet. If The Sox didn't essentially give Madrigal away, they wouldn't have to trade away such talent to get him back.

 

 

You need to get with Elsa and Let,It.Go.

[Lillian]

Regarding where Moncada should bat, in the order: He has had his best success this season, by far, hitting 3RD. That is the spot, at which he has the most plate appearances and he's hitting .294 with an OBP of .422 and a SLG of .421. Nevertheless, hitting him 3RD would be a big gamble, at this point, with the way he looks at the plate. Perhaps he needs more help than simply moving him up in the order. What about a change in his approach to hitting? 

When he was a prospect, the talk was always about his comp to his idol, Robinson Cano. He was supposed to be "Cano with speed". That hasn't been the case. Maybe he should shorten up his swing and try to be more of a contact hitter, who is willing to spray the ball to all fields. His approach is more of a slugger's, which he does not appear to be. A few attempted bunts, for a base hit, wouldn't be a bad idea either. With his speed, especially from the left batter's box, he could probably grab quite a few hits, with such an approach. Moreover, it would force opposing teams to leave the third baseman in, and on the left side of the diamond. The other change in his approach, which I have wanted for a long time, is becoming more of a defensive hitter, with 2 strikes. I've said it before, but he just doesn't seem to battle and foul off pitches, with 2 strikes. Far too often, he strikes out looking, or takes his normal big hack, with unsatisfactory results. He appears to be looking for something he likes, in his sweet spot, as most hitters do when ahead in the count, even when he has 2 strikes. That might be his most frustrating tendency.  

Again, I don't know what they should, or will do about his struggles at the plate. However, simply moving him to the heart of the order may not be worth risking potentially negative effects, on the total offense, especially when the Sox have so many much better options for that critical part of the lineup. 

[Bob Sacamano]

Only 3 things seem certain with the lineup in regards to the order: TA will lead off, Abreu is entrenched in the 3-spot struggling or not, Eloy 4. Where anyone hits seems to be dependent on the handedness of the opposing starting pitcher.

[South Side Hit Men]

No, the Sox offense does not need an adjustment. 

The Sox lead MLB with 72 home runs since June 30 and are sixth in MLB in runs scored during this timeframe.

The only suggestion would be to have this playoff lineup once Grandal and Engel return:

RH Starters: TA, YM, JA, EJ, LR, YG, AV, CH, AE

LH Starters: TA, LR, JA, EJ, YM, YG, AV, CH, AE

[Tnetennba]

26 minutes ago, Lillian said:

Regarding where Moncada should bat, in the order: He has had his best success this season, by far, hitting 3RD. That is the spot, at which he has the most plate appearances and he's hitting .294 with an OBP of .422 and a SLG of .421. Nevertheless, hitting him 3RD would be a big gamble, at this point, with the way he looks at the plate. Perhaps he needs more help than simply moving him up in the order. What about a change in his approach to hitting? 

When he was a prospect, the talk was always about his comp to his idol, Robinson Cano. He was supposed to be "Cano with speed". That hasn't been the case. Maybe he should shorten up his swing and try to be more of a contact hitter, who is willing to spray the ball to all fields. His approach is more of a slugger's, which he does not appear to be. A few attempted bunts, for a base hit, wouldn't be a bad idea either. With his speed, especially from the left batter's box, he could probably grab quite a few hits, with such an approach. Moreover, it would force opposing teams to leave the third baseman in, and on the left side of the diamond. The other change in his approach, which I have wanted for a long time, is becoming more of a defensive hitter, with 2 strikes. I've said it before, but he just doesn't seem to battle and foul off pitches, with 2 strikes. Far too often, he strikes out looking, or takes his normal big hack, with unsatisfactory results. He appears to be looking for something he likes, in his sweet spot, as most hitters do when ahead in the count, even when he has 2 strikes. That might be his most frustrating tendency.  

Again, I don't know what they should, or will do about his struggles at the plate. However, simply moving him to the heart of the order may not be worth risking potentially negative effects, on the total offense, especially when the Sox have so many much better options for that critical part of the lineup. 

Curious what his stats are hitting 2nd, or what resource you used to dig this up.  

[Lillian]

10 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

Curious what his stats are hitting 2nd, or what resource you used to dig this up.  

Baseball Reference, under "Splits":  https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.fcgi?id=moncayo01&year=2021&t=b

 

[Tnetennba]

11 minutes ago, Lillian said:

Baseball Reference, under "Splits":  https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.fcgi?id=moncayo01&year=2021&t=b

 

Thanks.  Totally missed that searching earlier.  

His stats batting 2nd are pretty bad this year.  Much better hitting 3rd with a larger sample.  I'd still like to see him hit 2nd with Abreu and Eloy behind him and see what happens over more than just the 14 games he hit 2nd earlier in the season.

[CentralChamps21]

vs RHP: TA, Yoan, Jose, Eloy, Yas, Luis, Vaughn, Goodwin, Hernandez

vs LHP: TA, Yoan, Jose, Eloy, Vaughn, Luis, Yas, Engel, Hernandez