COVID Thread Part Deux

[southsider2k5]

31 minutes ago, Texsox said:

My point is you should be able to say no if your neighbor wants to dump coal ash in your yard. 

Except your neighbors coal ash may well poison and kill you... a lot like an unchecked virus 

[Texsox]

3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Except your neighbors coal ash may well poison and kill you... a lot like an unchecked virus 

Somehow you equated being able to say no to being required to have something placed in your body with a neighbor dumping coal ash or nuclear waste in their yard. 

I'll continue to try to work with this scenario.  

Coal ash and nuclear waste does get disposed of somewhere and steps are taken to minimize the risks to others. Clearly in a backyard with neighbors isn't allowed. It seems like the same thing could happen here.  People who choose to not be injected could be barred from certain employment, barred from public gatherings etc where they are a danger to others. 

 

[southsider2k5]

21 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Somehow you equated being able to say no to being required to have something placed in your body with a neighbor dumping coal ash or nuclear waste in their yard. 

I'll continue to try to work with this scenario.  

Coal ash and nuclear waste does get disposed of somewhere and steps are taken to minimize the risks to others. Clearly in a backyard with neighbors isn't allowed. It seems like the same thing could happen here.  People who choose to not be injected could be barred from certain employment, barred from public gatherings etc where they are a danger to others. 

 

When your actions, or inactions, are killing other people,  other people gain a vested interest. 

[Texsox]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

When your actions, or inactions, are killing other people,  other people gain a vested interest. 

Yes they do. And our society has always balanced those opposing interests. Using your analogy, we continue to allow coal and nuclear power plants. Again, to use your analogy, If the government decided coal ash was safe they could require you to store coal ash in your backyard.

Using a previous analogy, We continue to allow alcohol to be consumed. 

I believe we would agree there should be limits on what the government forces us to do to our bodies. 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Texsox

[Texsox]

3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Except your neighbors coal ash may well poison and kill you... a lot like an unchecked virus 

And I'm fine with the government saying no,  you can't spread coal ash. I'm against (using your analogy) the government requiring you to store coal ash. Which is why your analogy is awkward to work with. 

The closest I can think of is "ok you can decide to live with coal ash but you must be 60 miles away from anyone" or whatever safety rules need to be in place to keep your decision to spread coal dust from harming others. 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Texsox

[greg775]

9 hours ago, Texsox said:

I believe my point is you should be able to tell the doctor to NOT inject you with cocaine. 

Not sure I'm about to make a good point here or if my point has holes in it, but I thought of something today while watching Kansas lose 45-7 to Baylor. OK this is America, land of the free still. One point I'd like to make is, yes, there are cases in which "some" people have had physical problems upon getting vaccinated. True we don't hear much about those who have had heart problems after being vaxxed (we don't hear about a lot of things nowadays because many media outlets have changed in terms of what they will and won't cover) but some people have been harmed by the vax. I think we can all agree this is true. Most of us know somebody who has had physical problems after being vaxxed.

Also, some anti vaxxers truly are concerned about possible side effects 2-3 years down the line. Not all anti vaxxers are conspiracy theorists, some are afraid for their health down the line if they are vaxxed. I know this because they have told me this at church. There are some people worried about future side effects.

My point is ... considering some have died after being vaxxed or fallen ill and considering some are concerned about future problems after being vaxxed, the fact America is the land of the free does indeed give these people the right to not be vaxxed. To me this point I've made makes perfect sense. Perhaps somebody will dispute it but I think it's cut and dried. If America truly is free, one has a right to say no when they know people who have died after being vaxxed and/or are worried about future side effects. Yes it's a freedom issue IMO.

Edited September 19, 2021 by greg775

[greg775]

9 hours ago, The Beast said:

So if it were out of a Wuhan lab, do they go after Fauci like Paul did for gain of function research? Or do they blame China? Or the Democrats?

I’m not sure who anti-vaxxers actually trust, unless it’s someone on social media. I thought that Fox News viewers would have trusted Francis Collins but I haven’t heard much praise for him, just bitching about Fauci.

Then it goes back to my question, “Who do you trust?

The Beast asked me these questions:

1.) Yes they go after Fauci. Hard. And they also SHOULD blame China big time. However, inexplicably we are in an era where we do not blame China for their atrocities (not talking about Covid, other stuff). I don't like this trend of coddling China. They are our adversary, folks. I won't say enemy here to avoid causing an earthquake.

2.) You wanted to know who I trust cause I musta trusted somebody if I got the 2 doses. Here's my answer: I have some close friends I've kept since high school who I respect and I trust them and they told me to get vaxxed and I know they have my best interests at heart. 2.) I trust my brother a nurse and he told me that the vax is worth getting and won't harm me down the line. He also is directly involved with Covid but not a big covid worrywart. He's never thought Covid was a big problem and I'm not lying, he is a nurse. He's not concerned about Covid much and he works in Chicago area.

Finally I trust the pharmacist who gave me both shots. I know it's stupid but she killed me with kindness and convinced me it was a good idea and I should be OK.

That's my answer. Peace out.

Edited September 19, 2021 by greg775

[caulfield12]

On 9/17/2021 at 11:58 PM, greg775 said:

This issue is complicated compared to other vaccines because of the fact we still don't know for sure where the virus originated, the politics involved in lockdowns and shutdowns, the fact it was administered before full FDA approval which has sparked conspiracy theories, etc.

Say what you want and disagree all you want but because of all the noise and distrust of Fauci and the government (many would never trust a Trump vaccine; many would never trust a Biden vaccine) you get many unwilling to be vaxxed. There's been so much noise and so little discussion of calming people's fears to adverse reactions that have occurred with some, that many are sitting it out.

In answer to your question, yes people have the right to refuse to be jabbed. Personal choice is evident here and understandable. It's just the way it is. Some are rolling the dice rather than trusting politicians and science.

There's also an intolerance regarding calm discussion of the issue. Right wing radio hosts have been outspoken against the vax and more than a few have died from Covid. Left wingers like Howard have exploded and said unvaxxed deserve what they get. Noise, noise, noise. We have to deal with the fallout of an angry society re. this vaccine and future ones surely to come. Not enough calm discussion. Everybody feels they are right and have dug in.

Peace.

But it is the Trump vaccines that are largely being rejected by his own voters...Operation Warp Speed.  His potentially winning in November, 2020, was at least partially predicated on getting them out to the public before the election.

[greg775]

3 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

But it is the Trump vaccines that are largely being rejected by his own voters...Operation Warp Speed.  His potentially winning in November, 2020, was at least partially predicated on getting them out to the public before the election.

Here's an item on just who is hesitant.    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/covid-vaccine-tracker-global-distribution/us-vaccine-demographics.html

[Texsox]

13 hours ago, greg775 said:

Not sure I'm about to make a good point here or if my point has holes in it, but I thought of something today while watching Kansas lose 45-7 to Baylor. OK this is America, land of the free still. One point I'd like to make is, yes, there are cases in which "some" people have had physical problems upon getting vaccinated. True we don't hear much about those who have had heart problems after being vaxxed (we don't hear about a lot of things nowadays because many media outlets have changed in terms of what they will and won't cover) but some people have been harmed by the vax. I think we can all agree this is true. Most of us know somebody who has had physical problems after being vaxxed.

Also, some anti vaxxers truly are concerned about possible side effects 2-3 years down the line. Not all anti vaxxers are conspiracy theorists, some are afraid for their health down the line if they are vaxxed. I know this because they have told me this at church. There are some people worried about future side effects.

My point is ... considering some have died after being vaxxed or fallen ill and considering some are concerned about future problems after being vaxxed, the fact America is the land of the free does indeed give these people the right to not be vaxxed. To me this point I've made makes perfect sense. Perhaps somebody will dispute it but I think it's cut and dried. If America truly is free, one has a right to say no when they know people who have died after being vaxxed and/or are worried about future side effects. Yes it's a freedom issue IMO.

Here's the best example I can come up with. 

Someone has a mental health issue that is controllable with drugs. While medicated they are no threat to themselves or others. As long as they are taking their meds they can live and move about like anyone else. 

If they decide to not take their meds they are confined to a location that prevents them from being a threat to others. I am uncomfortable with the government forcing those meds into their body. 

I support someone's right to not be vaccinated. I also support them not being allowed to cross state lines, being restricted from certain occupations, not allowed in public buildings with occupancy rates over six,  or pretty much any other measure that protects the general public. We've always balanced rights in this country. 

[greg775]

5 hours ago, Texsox said:

Here's the best example I can come up with. 

Someone has a mental health issue that is controllable with drugs. While medicated they are no threat to themselves or others. As long as they are taking their meds they can live and move about like anyone else. 

If they decide to not take their meds they are confined to a location that prevents them from being a threat to others. I am uncomfortable with the government forcing those meds into their body.

I have a problem with this example. It's too subjective. How do we know that while medicated the person is no threat to themselves or others? The drug may or may not have an effect on the mental health patient on a given day. Your scenario is like "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest." Jack Nicholson character should not be confined to a place where he must take drugs and is no threat to others unless he's breaking the law with violent behavior. If so detain him.

There are too many irregularities regarding the vax (some people getting sick and dying from it; still questions about why so many vacced are getting Covid) to punish those who won't get vaxxed. it's not like this vax is 100 percent effective right now.

Edited September 19, 2021 by greg775

[Texsox]

3 hours ago, greg775 said:

I have a problem with this example. It's too subjective. How do we know that while medicated the person is no threat to themselves or others? The drug may or may not have an effect on the mental health patient on a given day. Your scenario is like "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest." Jack Nicholson character should not be confined to a place where he must take drugs and is no threat to others unless he's breaking the law with violent behavior. If so detain him.

There are too many irregularities regarding the vax (some people getting sick and dying from it; still questions about why so many vacced are getting Covid) to punish those who won't get vaxxed. it's not like this vax is 100 percent effective right now.

It requires a history of crimes while not on medication so not really subjective.

[StrangeSox]

 

 

 

[The Beast]

On 9/18/2021 at 7:28 PM, greg775 said:

The Beast asked me these questions:

1.) Yes they go after Fauci. Hard. And they also SHOULD blame China big time. However, inexplicably we are in an era where we do not blame China for their atrocities (not talking about Covid, other stuff). I don't like this trend of coddling China. They are our adversary, folks. I won't say enemy here to avoid causing an earthquake.

2.) You wanted to know who I trust cause I musta trusted somebody if I got the 2 doses. Here's my answer: I have some close friends I've kept since high school who I respect and I trust them and they told me to get vaxxed and I know they have my best interests at heart. 2.) I trust my brother a nurse and he told me that the vax is worth getting and won't harm me down the line. He also is directly involved with Covid but not a big covid worrywart. He's never thought Covid was a big problem and I'm not lying, he is a nurse. He's not concerned about Covid much and he works in Chicago area.

Finally I trust the pharmacist who gave me both shots. I know it's stupid but she killed me with kindness and convinced me it was a good idea and I should be OK.

That's my answer. Peace out.

I hope it is actually found to be from bats and not a lab so that the conspiracy theorists are wrong again just like Qanon is wrong on everything. And yes, China is an enemy. But there are ways to counteract them by focusing on us at home and internationally with our allies. The submarine deal was a good start.

I want to know who those who are vaccine hesitant or anti vaccine trust.

3 hours ago, StrangeSox said:

 

 

 

Oh, but Fauci paid people to put those bats there! He injected them with the virus from the Wuhan lab!

7 hours ago, greg775 said:

I have a problem with this example. It's too subjective. How do we know that while medicated the person is no threat to themselves or others? The drug may or may not have an effect on the mental health patient on a given day. Your scenario is like "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest." Jack Nicholson character should not be confined to a place where he must take drugs and is no threat to others unless he's breaking the law with violent behavior. If so detain him.

There are too many irregularities regarding the vax (some people getting sick and dying from it; still questions about why so many vacced are getting Covid) to punish those who won't get vaxxed. it's not like this vax is 100 percent effective right now.

So you support people who won’t get the vaccine but you can’t understand the people who work with these people, like those who are immunocompromised or have family who can’t get vaccinated yet? Is it unfair to mandate that people get vaccinated and if they don’t, get tested? Lastly, vaccines aren’t necessarily meant to be 100% effective. But their efficacy is high enough.

[greg775]

3 hours ago, The Beast said:

Is it unfair to mandate that people get vaccinated and if they don’t, get tested?

My position right now is I think it's fair to require those who don't get vaxxed to get tested once a week. You know a way to end the vaccine hesitancy? Require the non vaxxed to be tested once every 10 days and make the individual be responsible for the cost of the test, not the government. Once people have to pay, it's all over. People are cheap. They won't lose 200 bucks every 10 days to pay for a test and results. Another way? If you are unvaxxed your insurance company balks at covering Covid expenses in hospital. That also will do it. Nobody will risk the cost of hospitalization. They'll get vaxxed.

This is not going against my theory that Americans have a right to refuse the vax. I think it's fair in a health emergency to require tests. And if insurance companies want to be jerks and not pay, they can also do that. They do enough bad stuff already.

Beast: Are u a Fauci fan?

Edited September 20, 2021 by greg775

[Balta1701]

 

This is ranked by "First dose rate", the US is still high on second doses delivered but losing ground rapidly.

India will pass the US shortly, as in the next 2 weeks or so.

[NWINFan]

19 hours ago, greg775 said:

I have a problem with this example. It's too subjective. How do we know that while medicated the person is no threat to themselves or others? The drug may or may not have an effect on the mental health patient on a given day. Your scenario is like "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest." Jack Nicholson character should not be confined to a place where he must take drugs and is no threat to others unless he's breaking the law with violent behavior. If so detain him.

There are too many irregularities regarding the vax (some people getting sick and dying from it; still questions about why so many vacced are getting Covid) to punish those who won't get vaxxed. it's not like this vax is 100 percent effective right now.

The simple fact is that deaths went down after the vaccine was being given. And now we see hospitals being jammed with Covid patients who didn't get the vaccine. As a result many people are being denied medical care because there is no space for them. What are you going to say to those being denied medical care? They don't have rights?

I recently got a shot for shingles. I had put it off because of known side effects. But the thought of getting a painful condition pushed me to act. I experienced no side effects and have some peace of mind. I also have some peace of mind because I got the vaccine.

This crisis would have been better managed if people weren't so paranoid. 

[Kyyle23]

9 hours ago, greg775 said:

My position right now is I think it's fair to require those who don't get vaxxed to get tested once a week. You know a way to end the vaccine hesitancy? Require the non vaxxed to be tested once every 10 days and make the individual be responsible for the cost of the test, not the government. Once people have to pay, it's all over. People are cheap. They won't lose 200 bucks every 10 days to pay for a test and results. Another way? If you are unvaxxed your insurance company balks at covering Covid expenses in hospital. That also will do it. Nobody will risk the cost of hospitalization. They'll get vaxxed.

This is not going against my theory that Americans have a right to refuse the vax. I think it's fair in a health emergency to require tests. And if insurance companies want to be jerks and not pay, they can also do that. They do enough bad stuff already.

Beast: Are u a Fauci fan?

Nobody is a fan of fauci, ffs.  He is an official that works for the CDC, he isn't someone who requires fandom 

[CentralChamps21]

My mom had a COVID patient last night who refused to be put on a ventilator because she read on Facebook that ventilators are killing COVID patients.

Not kidding.

 

[Kyyle23]

 

[greg775]

On 9/17/2021 at 3:06 PM, NWINFan said:

I've stopped listening to Bill Maher a long time ago. 

Why? His monologue rants on woke culture are priceless IMO. His takes on Americans snitching on each other finding tweets from many years ago to ruin people's lives are exceptional. He still has rants that go against what I believe but is one of the biggest opponents of wokeness which makes me like him immensely. He's also not afraid of the mob which I like. Just the oppo, he encourages people to fight back against the Twitter mob or ignore it.

I seriously wonder why you wouldn't listen to Maher. His position on Covid is good as well. I won't talk about his recent rant against a certain party lest I stir things up. I know my position is in the minority on the board and Maher's won't go over well here. Peace.

Edited September 20, 2021 by greg775

[Iwritecode]

On 9/18/2021 at 6:48 PM, greg775 said:

Not sure I'm about to make a good point here or if my point has holes in it, but I thought of something today while watching Kansas lose 45-7 to Baylor. OK this is America, land of the free still. One point I'd like to make is, yes, there are cases in which "some" people have had physical problems upon getting vaccinated. True we don't hear much about those who have had heart problems after being vaxxed (we don't hear about a lot of things nowadays because many media outlets have changed in terms of what they will and won't cover) but some people have been harmed by the vax. I think we can all agree this is true. Most of us know somebody who has had physical problems after being vaxxed.

Also, some anti vaxxers truly are concerned about possible side effects 2-3 years down the line. Not all anti vaxxers are conspiracy theorists, some are afraid for their health down the line if they are vaxxed. I know this because they have told me this at church. There are some people worried about future side effects.

My point is ... considering some have died after being vaxxed or fallen ill and considering some are concerned about future problems after being vaxxed, the fact America is the land of the free does indeed give these people the right to not be vaxxed. To me this point I've made makes perfect sense. Perhaps somebody will dispute it but I think it's cut and dried. If America truly is free, one has a right to say no when they know people who have died after being vaxxed and/or are worried about future side effects. Yes it's a freedom issue IMO.

What are you considering "physical" problems?

 

And yes of course people are dying after having been vaccinated. It was never said to be 100% guaranteed to make you not die. That's not an excuse to not get it. That's like not wearing your seat belt because you've heard one or two stories about people dying while still wearing them.

AFAIK, nobody has died because of the vaccine either.

[The Beast]

15 hours ago, greg775 said:

My position right now is I think it's fair to require those who don't get vaxxed to get tested once a week. You know a way to end the vaccine hesitancy? Require the non vaxxed to be tested once every 10 days and make the individual be responsible for the cost of the test, not the government. Once people have to pay, it's all over. People are cheap. They won't lose 200 bucks every 10 days to pay for a test and results. Another way? If you are unvaxxed your insurance company balks at covering Covid expenses in hospital. That also will do it. Nobody will risk the cost of hospitalization. They'll get vaxxed.

This is not going against my theory that Americans have a right to refuse the vax. I think it's fair in a health emergency to require tests. And if insurance companies want to be jerks and not pay, they can also do that. They do enough bad stuff already.

Beast: Are u a Fauci fan?

Insurance companies can do that and I think the testing cost is being implemented by United but not all across the board with companies since it puts an undue burden on employees.

It doesn’t really matter if I am a Fauci fan or not. What matters is I believe science changes with new evidence and facts. I think sometimes public figures get ahead of themselves, but I don’t give much thought to the politics people have with Fauci. I want to beat the virus instead of pointing fingers.

[Texsox]

3 hours ago, The Beast said:

Insurance companies can do that and I think the testing cost is being implemented by United but not all across the board with companies since it puts an undue burden on employees.

It doesn’t really matter if I am a Fauci fan or not. What matters is I believe science changes with new evidence and facts. I think sometimes public figures get ahead of themselves, but I don’t give much thought to the politics people have with Fauci. I want to beat the virus instead of pointing fingers.

I want people being tested and quarantined as quickly as possible. Any barrier compromises that. 

[greg775]

6 hours ago, Iwritecode said:

What are you considering "physical" problems?

And yes of course people are dying after having been vaccinated.

I've read stories and seen videos of people telling horror stories of heart problems after getting vaxxed. Also, remember I've said I trust nobody? I happen to believe the media has elected to not sufficiently at least cover those who have fallen ill after being vaxxed. Hell, my nephew passed out after he got vaxxed. Yes getting vaxxed worries me about future complications, sure it does.

Your second sentence is scary to many. If ANY people have died, that is a concern. We should hear more about how many have died and how many have had heart problems so far.

BTW, I went to the doc today for my yearly blood draw, etc, to see if I need any meds for cholesterol, etc. We had a nice talk about COVID. In just shooting the breeze, he said "people are stubborn; they need to get vaccinated and we can end this Covid thing." He also said I should get the flu shot Oct. 1 and both shingles shots at my earliest convenience. Also the booster when it's approved/available. He also said masking up has virtually eliminated colds and flu. He said "there was no flu this past year." He said "there were very few common colds this past year." He said it's cause of masks.

He also was not that worried about Covid. Not so sure what that's all about but he wasn't that worried about travel and stressed one should wear masks pretty much all the time. He said he's worked non stop since covid started and has not had a cold, flu, or Covid. 

STOP READING HERE ... unless u like long posts. Just wanted to share my trip to doc today. What a poorly run profession. Of course I don't trust anybody. So I have a 3:45 pm apptment to draw blood and take my blood pressure, etc. They demanded I come in rather than approve my meds for the next month. After six months or so they want to check BP, cholly levels, etc. Fasting lab tests.

So they stress get there 15 mins early. I get there at 3:30, they take my ID and insurance card and politely demand I wear one of their masks since mine is cloth. ... I wait til 4:30 to get called. I had not eaten all day as u need to fast before the taking of blood for the lab. The only reason I saved myself a future trip later this week is I phoned in at 10 a.m. and asked if I needed to fast today; of course the receptionist initially said  on Friday when I made the appointment I did not need to fast. I was skeptical and called and they called back at 10:45 and said, 'Yes, fast all day. That's why u are coming in; for fasting labs to get your prescriptions approved or changed."

 I said "I'm glad u called back cause I haven't eaten since 10 last night."

So after I get called and doc comes in the room he shoots the breeze with me for 10 minutes about things and he checks my breathing etc., He says he will approve my meds but "you need to come in for fasting labs in the near future." I said, "I haven't eaten today; to save me a trip maybe you can take blood now." he said, "Certainly I'll make sure there's a nurse." There was one nurse left at 4:50 pm, getting ready to leave. She informed the doc in front of me she has to go pick up her grandkid at day care. Doc asks her to quickly stick me saying, "he hasn't eaten all day; I hate to make him come back." She was friendly but hurried, sticks me, gets the blood and they don't even tell me to take a urine sample this time. I didn't even ask for that. I guess I was sick of running the show.

Conclusion: Had I not TWICE asked about fasting labs, I'd have had to schedule another apptment to come in and miss work, etc. I'm not mad as I rather like my doc and he's one of the best in town, but talk about a horrible experience! When it ended, I went to starbucks, got a snack and coffee and the coffee was cold. I did not return it but drank the cold coffee ruminating on a bad day.

Edited September 21, 2021 by greg775