COVID Thread Part Deux

[The Beast]

20 minutes ago, Tony said:

 

Bye bye. The NFL teams are definitely doing that with players whether they admit it or not too. See Cam “The Truth” Newton as an example.

[CentralChamps21]

https://nypost.com/2021/08/31/al-leiter-john-smoltz-wont-appear-in-studio-at-mlb-network-after-refusing-vaccine/

Quote

Hall of Famer John Smoltz and former Met and Yankee Al Leiter will no longer appear in-studio for MLB Network after refusing to take the COVID-19 vaccine, The Post has learned.

MLBN has made it mandatory for all employees to be vaccinated, with the mandate going into effect Sept. 1. MLBN executives, Smoltz and Leiter made a compromise to keep them on-the-air, but not in the Secaucus studios. They will both appear remotely for the shows.

 

[he gone.]

On 8/26/2021 at 4:11 PM, Chisoxfn said:

It is crazy schools arent required to distance and mask up - especially given how delta is more infectious for kids. Risks won’t go away but they are certainly reduced which seems like a no brained but hey what do I know. 

Food for thought ... What if I told you that per CDC website, not me, not Fox News, not a university study ... per the CDC that approximately 600 kids 0-18 died of the flu in 2017?

Then what if I told you that 444 kids have died of Covid in 2021 through 3 quarters. Extrapolate that number out one more quarter and you're sitting at exactly 600. 

 

Now think if in 2017 they made kids mask up, socially distance, and generally put fear into a whole generation of kids that year for the flu. 

 

Just saying. When you can't go anywhere for more than like 8 minutes without hearing the word Covid? It gets scary. But if you take facts, numbers, and take a few steps back? All of a sudden it's not so bad. 

[Soxbadger]

7 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

Food for thought ... What if I told you that per CDC website, not me, not Fox News, not a university study ... per the CDC that approximately 600 kids 0-18 died of the flu in 2017?

Then what if I told you that 444 kids have died of Covid in 2021 through 3 quarters. Extrapolate that number out one more quarter and you're sitting at exactly 600. 

 

Now think if in 2017 they made kids mask up, socially distance, and generally put fear into a whole generation of kids that year for the flu. 

 

Just saying. When you can't go anywhere for more than like 8 minutes without hearing the word Covid? It gets scary. But if you take facts, numbers, and take a few steps back? All of a sudden it's not so bad. 

What if I told you the long term health impacts of Covid are likely worse than the Flu. What if I told you that we wont know the impact on children until years from now.

So yeah as a parent Id rather not unnecessarily risk my child having long term health issues. Wearing a mask and being safe isnt going to "put fear into them" because every day I teach them about acceptable risk v reward. We explain to children every day why its okay to run in a field, but not okay to run at the swimming pool.

[he gone.]

I'd say that's fair. It's not a right or wrong issue or trying to slam dunk on others. we're so caught up in this covid thing that I don't think enough people zoom out anymore. When you hear covid, covid, covid, covid, covid, covid every single day it's tough to take a step back. it's overwhelming. there are so many stats, so much information, so much more to learn, etc. 

End of the day it's math. It's science. everybody will get covid in some form. the only difference is vaccine or not. So then it becomes a choice for individuals are you comfortable with the consequences of what may happen after you get covid with or without a vaccine. And that's generally a personal choice. 

So after all kids have a chance to get the vaccine? All of a sudden masks will be dropped again and transmission will continue. in adults the chances of long haul covid are reduced by about half after this vaccine. kids? probably the same. Are you comfortable post vaccine for kids with no masks? if not, when are you comfortable with dropping masks? when are we comfortable addressing that if we're wearing masks it should be n95 and not spongebob cloth masks? if we're following the science, shouldn't we actually be following the science wholly? how do we end and transition back to normal life? mutations will continue. it's just how viruses work. the chance of long haul will continue to be there with or without a vaccine, so how do we take a next step? and what does that step look like?

 

[Kyyle23]

13 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

I'd say that's fair. It's not a right or wrong issue or trying to slam dunk on others. we're so caught up in this covid thing that I don't think enough people zoom out anymore. When you hear covid, covid, covid, covid, covid, covid every single day it's tough to take a step back. it's overwhelming. there are so many stats, so much information, so much more to learn, etc. 

End of the day it's math. It's science. everybody will get covid in some form. the only difference is vaccine or not. So then it becomes a choice for individuals are you comfortable with the consequences of what may happen after you get covid with or without a vaccine. And that's generally a personal choice. 

So after all kids have a chance to get the vaccine? All of a sudden masks will be dropped again and transmission will continue. in adults the chances of long haul covid are reduced by about half after this vaccine. kids? probably the same. Are you comfortable post vaccine for kids with no masks? if not, when are you comfortable with dropping masks? when are we comfortable addressing that if we're wearing masks it should be n95 and not spongebob cloth masks? if we're following the science, shouldn't we actually be following the science wholly? how do we end and transition back to normal life? mutations will continue. it's just how viruses work. the chance of long haul will continue to be there with or without a vaccine, so how do we take a next step? and what does that step look like?

 

The problem is everyone stepped back and said it's not that bad, and the delta stepped in.  
 

wearing a mask is such an easy thing to do and people act like such babies over it

[Soxbadger]

24 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

I'd say that's fair. It's not a right or wrong issue or trying to slam dunk on others. we're so caught up in this covid thing that I don't think enough people zoom out anymore. When you hear covid, covid, covid, covid, covid, covid every single day it's tough to take a step back. it's overwhelming. there are so many stats, so much information, so much more to learn, etc. 

End of the day it's math. It's science. everybody will get covid in some form. the only difference is vaccine or not. So then it becomes a choice for individuals are you comfortable with the consequences of what may happen after you get covid with or without a vaccine. And that's generally a personal choice. 

So after all kids have a chance to get the vaccine? All of a sudden masks will be dropped again and transmission will continue. in adults the chances of long haul covid are reduced by about half after this vaccine. kids? probably the same. Are you comfortable post vaccine for kids with no masks? if not, when are you comfortable with dropping masks? when are we comfortable addressing that if we're wearing masks it should be n95 and not spongebob cloth masks? if we're following the science, shouldn't we actually be following the science wholly? how do we end and transition back to normal life? mutations will continue. it's just how viruses work. the chance of long haul will continue to be there with or without a vaccine, so how do we take a next step? and what does that step look like?

 

Well so far the science seems to show that if you have a vaccine your are less likely to get severe symptoms. So once kids can get the vaccine Im pretty comfortable returning to normal life.

That really doesnt seem like a huge hill to climb. 

[Chisoxfn]

52 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

Food for thought ... What if I told you that per CDC website, not me, not Fox News, not a university study ... per the CDC that approximately 600 kids 0-18 died of the flu in 2017?

Then what if I told you that 444 kids have died of Covid in 2021 through 3 quarters. Extrapolate that number out one more quarter and you're sitting at exactly 600. 

 

Now think if in 2017 they made kids mask up, socially distance, and generally put fear into a whole generation of kids that year for the flu. 

 

Just saying. When you can't go anywhere for more than like 8 minutes without hearing the word Covid? It gets scary. But if you take facts, numbers, and take a few steps back? All of a sudden it's not so bad. 

What if I told you that this new variant, Delta, is far more susceptible to children and the numbers of the past year, to at least some extent benefited from children masking up in school and the fact that for most of that past year, there were material lockdowns and many kids not actually at in-person school. I don't know what the #'s would be if protocol wasn't followed...but i know my kids, who are too young to be vaxxed, have no problem wearing a mask and it isn't some major inconvenience.  

I have 2 good friends that are ER doctors - last year, they weren't very worried at all with their kids (under vax age) and COVID - the past 6 weeks - they have been hyper alert and concerned due to what they are seeing in young patients coming into and more broad data around how Delta impacts kids.  

[he gone.]

33 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

What if I told you that this new variant, Delta, is far more susceptible to children and the numbers of the past year, to at least some extent benefited from children masking up in school and the fact that for most of that past year, there were material lockdowns and many kids not actually at in-person school. I don't know what the #'s would be if protocol wasn't followed...but i know my kids, who are too young to be vaxxed, have no problem wearing a mask and it isn't some major inconvenience.  

I have 2 good friends that are ER doctors - last year, they weren't very worried at all with their kids (under vax age) and COVID - the past 6 weeks - they have been hyper alert and concerned due to what they are seeing in young patients coming into and more broad data around how Delta impacts kids.  

I would say that the numbers of those <18 requiring hospitalization have jumped from .27 per 100,000 in January 2021, or 2.7 visits per million to now .48  per 100,000 or 4.8 per a million. So it definitely is worse and more dangerous. I would also take away that still incredibly rare. 

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#new-hospital-admissions

I think 1 per million is probably too many, but in the same breath it's about 2-3X more dangerous than a bad flu season in terms of hospitalization. I would argue the response is generally more than 2-3X that of a regular flu year. 

I also think, why not do hybrid? If your a parent who is concerned (rightfully so) then you have the option to have your kid learn to attend school via zoom. You also have the option to send them to school with a mask. You also have the option to send them to school without a mask. It gives various options of protection while offering a learning environment. Maybe not the best solution, but also provides alternatives for individuals for the next 2-4 months until they give the approval to administer to those over 2 years old. 

Other side note: I'm sure your ER friends are seeing some terrible shit. no doubt there. I have friends in the medical community who express the same point of view. I would only counter saying that those individuals are a bit skewed right? So i work in finance, and i generally think the financial markets are teetering and horrible stuff is going to happen. Am i right? probably to extent, but also very wrong since it'll likely be okay. I'm just in the middle of it every day. Talk to a cop .... they'll have a skewed outlook on violence, drugs, etc. Talk to a mechanic and they'll have a view on why "they just don't make cars like they used to". Talk to a server about restaurant business ... they'll come away with a negative view. Truth is, those most involved don't have the luxury of being able to zoom out. They go to work and see another dying person each day. They say another child covid case. etc. 

Its also really tough to look at things objectively when it involves health and deaths. humans tend to be pretty irrational about death in general. So yes, it may be a little harsh to be critical on a topic like covid, but also it takes a little bit of that perspective because the US and World population is a big ship ... it's hard to turn big ships. You generally need to keep it moving forward, when you don't all sorts of consequences happen. so it's more a risk reward thing in my midn. 

[CentralChamps21]

1 minute ago, BrianAnderson said:

Other side note: I'm sure your ER friends are seeing some terrible shit. no doubt there. I have friends in the medical community who express the same point of view. I would only counter saying that those individuals are a bit skewed right? So i work in finance, and i generally think the financial markets are teetering and horrible stuff is going to happen. Am i right? probably to extent, but also very wrong since it'll likely be okay. I'm just in the middle of it every day. Talk to a cop .... they'll have a skewed outlook on violence, drugs, etc. Talk to a mechanic and they'll have a view on why "they just don't make cars like they used to". Talk to a server about restaurant business ... they'll come away with a negative view. Truth is, those most involved don't have the luxury of being able to zoom out. They go to work and see another dying person each day. They say another child covid case. etc.

My mom's a nurse, and I don't think that kind of analogy really works. Seeing the horrible stuff going on in hospitals right now is not anywhere near the same level of what one would experience in finanace, autos, retail, etc. The cop is the only one that even kinda works. The others really trivialize what medical professionals are going through right now.

[he gone.]

That's fine. You're nitpicking a post trying to make a point isn't very applicable to the overall argument. The argument is about objectivity. Not about what any certain industry sees on a day to day basis. 

[CentralChamps21]

Just now, BrianAnderson said:

That's fine. You're nitpicking a post trying to make a point isn't very applicable to the overall argument. The argument is about objectivity. Not about what any certain industry sees on a day to day basis. 

You made the point, now you're saying it doesn't apply to the overall argument. That seems like a waste of time and effort to make an irrelevant argument like that.

[he gone.]

I'm saying my point is the original post is about objectivity. Being too close to a situation tends to lend itself to a skewed perspective. 

The point you're tying to make is that nurses see much worse stuff than mechanics. 

Those are two separate arguments. And I'm not saying anything contrary to your point. Yes, nurses seeing death everyday is worse than a brake job.

[CentralChamps21]

1 minute ago, BrianAnderson said:

I'm saying my point is the original post is about objectivity. Being too close to a situation tends to lend itself to a skewed perspective. 

The point you're tying to make is that nurses see much worse stuff than mechanics. 

Those are two separate arguments. And I'm not saying anything contrary to your point. Yes, nurses seeing death everyday is worse than a brake job.

Right, but a pandemic that's already killed hundreds of thousands doesn't get worse because you trust Tucker Carlson more than your mechanic when it comes to what your car needs.

[he gone.]

huh?

I'm not saying i dont trust nurses and doctors at all. I'm saying i trust numbers. CDC numbers. and then taking those numbers and making a risk reward decision based off of statistics vs. the counterweight of other consequences.

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

huh?

I'm not saying i dont trust nurses and doctors at all. I'm saying i trust numbers. CDC numbers. and then taking those numbers and making a risk reward decision based off of statistics vs. the counterweight of other consequences.

No, you're saying you're the arbiter of which numbers should be trusted and what is objective.

[southsider2k5]

What this is totally ignoring is mutations, and the ability to mutate being directly tied to how many opportunities that COVID has to mutate.

[he gone.]

 

35 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

No, you're saying you're the arbiter of which numbers should be trusted and what is objective.

How so? I presented numbers. Up to you on how you want to interpret those numbers and how you want to use those.  Everybody is going to have a different risk appetite which is the complicated part. I'm not telling you what you should do with your kids or life. That's up to you. Every decision you make is always a risk reward calculation. 

 

7 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

What this is totally ignoring is mutations, and the ability to mutate being directly tied to how many opportunities that COVID has to mutate.

Mutations aren't going to stop. They'll continue to pop up in Africa, India, South America, etc. In a global economy they will continue to make their way here. Like i said we'll all contract covid over time, it is just are you vaccinated or not (and likely what booster are you current on)  and what strand is it when you contract. 

[The Beast]

2 hours ago, BrianAnderson said:

I'd say that's fair. It's not a right or wrong issue or trying to slam dunk on others. we're so caught up in this covid thing that I don't think enough people zoom out anymore. When you hear covid, covid, covid, covid, covid, covid every single day it's tough to take a step back. it's overwhelming. there are so many stats, so much information, so much more to learn, etc. 

End of the day it's math. It's science. everybody will get covid in some form. the only difference is vaccine or not. So then it becomes a choice for individuals are you comfortable with the consequences of what may happen after you get covid with or without a vaccine. And that's generally a personal choice. 

So after all kids have a chance to get the vaccine? All of a sudden masks will be dropped again and transmission will continue. in adults the chances of long haul covid are reduced by about half after this vaccine. kids? probably the same. Are you comfortable post vaccine for kids with no masks? if not, when are you comfortable with dropping masks? when are we comfortable addressing that if we're wearing masks it should be n95 and not spongebob cloth masks? if we're following the science, shouldn't we actually be following the science wholly? how do we end and transition back to normal life? mutations will continue. it's just how viruses work. the chance of long haul will continue to be there with or without a vaccine, so how do we take a next step? and what does that step look like?

 

Once my son and niece have the vaccine and my wife is in a school with more vaccinated kids, I am perfectly fine moving back towards normal. Then it comes more deadly to the unvaccinated and I have done everything I possibly can to protect the people closest to me from severe illness and death. Cases unfortunately won’t go away but maybe the transmission and severity of the virus will, especially if we get boosters every year.

I also really hope the unvaccinated people who are vaccine hesitant are heeding the message from employers and other private businesses or organizations that impact their lives. Things may be quite different for the unvaccinated if enough entities require mandates or for people to get or prove negative tests.

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

How so? I presented numbers. Up to you on how you want to interpret those numbers and how you want to use those.  Everybody is going to have a different risk appetite which is the complicated part. I'm not telling you what you should do with your kids or life. That's up to you. Every decision you make is always a risk reward calculation. 

3 hours ago, BrianAnderson said:

Just saying. When you can't go anywhere for more than like 8 minutes without hearing the word Covid? It gets scary. But if you take facts, numbers, and take a few steps back? All of a sudden it's not so bad. 

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

 

How so? I presented numbers. Up to you on how you want to interpret those numbers and how you want to use those.  Everybody is going to have a different risk appetite which is the complicated part. I'm not telling you what you should do with your kids or life. That's up to you. Every decision you make is always a risk reward calculation. 

 

Mutations aren't going to stop. They'll continue to pop up in Africa, India, South America, etc. In a global economy they will continue to make their way here. Like i said we'll all contract covid over time, it is just are you vaccinated or not (and likely what booster are you current on)  and what strand is it when you contract. 

Again

 The ability to mutate being directly tied to how many opportunities that COVID has to mutate.

If you leave billions of people unvaxxinated, soon enough it won't matter who is vaxxinated.  We are already seeing that, and a large segment of the population is actively ignoring it.  We are also ignoring that even if it isn't hurting one group to a high enough level to bother you, those cases are still able to infect and kill other people, just like the school system where two teachers died from COVID.  It isn't nearly as simple as "oh this isn't a big deal for kids, just look at this one number in isolation".

[The Beast]

1 hour ago, BrianAnderson said:

I would say that the numbers of those <18 requiring hospitalization have jumped from .27 per 100,000 in January 2021, or 2.7 visits per million to now .48  per 100,000 or 4.8 per a million. So it definitely is worse and more dangerous. I would also take away that still incredibly rare. 

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#new-hospital-admissions

I think 1 per million is probably too many, but in the same breath it's about 2-3X more dangerous than a bad flu season in terms of hospitalization. I would argue the response is generally more than 2-3X that of a regular flu year. 

I also think, why not do hybrid? If your a parent who is concerned (rightfully so) then you have the option to have your kid learn to attend school via zoom. You also have the option to send them to school with a mask. You also have the option to send them to school without a mask. It gives various options of protection while offering a learning environment. Maybe not the best solution, but also provides alternatives for individuals for the next 2-4 months until they give the approval to administer to those over 2 years old. 

Other side note: I'm sure your ER friends are seeing some terrible shit. no doubt there. I have friends in the medical community who express the same point of view. I would only counter saying that those individuals are a bit skewed right? So i work in finance, and i generally think the financial markets are teetering and horrible stuff is going to happen. Am i right? probably to extent, but also very wrong since it'll likely be okay. I'm just in the middle of it every day. Talk to a cop .... they'll have a skewed outlook on violence, drugs, etc. Talk to a mechanic and they'll have a view on why "they just don't make cars like they used to". Talk to a server about restaurant business ... they'll come away with a negative view. Truth is, those most involved don't have the luxury of being able to zoom out. They go to work and see another dying person each day. They say another child covid case. etc. 

Its also really tough to look at things objectively when it involves health and deaths. humans tend to be pretty irrational about death in general. So yes, it may be a little harsh to be critical on a topic like covid, but also it takes a little bit of that perspective because the US and World population is a big ship ... it's hard to turn big ships. You generally need to keep it moving forward, when you don't all sorts of consequences happen. so it's more a risk reward thing in my midn. 

Not unless the mask mandates are relaxed in schools. Until the vaccination rate goes up, masks will be required for some time, at least in Illinois. We will see what happens in other states.

20 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

What this is totally ignoring is mutations, and the ability to mutate being directly tied to how many opportunities that COVID has to mutate.

Just like some folks don’t think that the science community can change what they know over time and look at it as flip flopping rather than using new data and evidence to produce new guidance.

[he gone.]

3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Again

 The ability to mutate being directly tied to how many opportunities that COVID has to mutate.

If you leave billions of people unvaxxinated, soon enough it won't matter who is vaxxinated.  We are already seeing that, and a large segment of the population is actively ignoring it.  We are also ignoring that even if it isn't hurting one group to a high enough level to bother you, those cases are still able to infect and kill other people, just like the school system where two teachers died from COVID.  It isn't nearly as simple as "oh this isn't a big deal for kids, just look at this one number in isolation".

Yes we agree. and there will be billions of people unvaccinated. imagine going into africa where 400,000 die of malaria a year and telling them that the 177k that died via covid is a bigger deal. those are apples and oranges, but vaccinating the world is a tall, tall task. whether this started out of a lab or a wet market ... look at that point of origin ... eradicating it is probably off the table. 

And two teachers dying ... sad ... aren't they eligible for the vaccine? they should've been getting said vaccine. Right? Like we can't as a society hold back and keep distancing and wearing masks, etc. for the people who've made a decision that goes against science. you have to keep moving forward. those who refuse the vaccine are making their own choice and have to live w hte consequences. 

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

Yes we agree. and there will be billions of people unvaccinated. imagine going into africa where 400,000 die of malaria a year and telling them that the 177k that died via covid is a bigger deal. those are apples and oranges, but vaccinating the world is a tall, tall task. whether this started out of a lab or a wet market ... look at that point of origin ... eradicating it is probably off the table. 

And two teachers dying ... sad ... aren't they eligible for the vaccine? they should've been getting said vaccine. Right? Like we can't as a society hold back and keep distancing and wearing masks, etc. for the people who've made a decision that goes against science. you have to keep moving forward. those who refuse the vaccine are making their own choice and have to live w hte consequences. 

So if one of these guys kills an immunocompromised Balta because they decided that this wasn't a big deal, what should the consequences be?

[Chisoxfn]

1 hour ago, BrianAnderson said:

I would say that the numbers of those <18 requiring hospitalization have jumped from .27 per 100,000 in January 2021, or 2.7 visits per million to now .48  per 100,000 or 4.8 per a million. So it definitely is worse and more dangerous. I would also take away that still incredibly rare. 

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#new-hospital-admissions

I think 1 per million is probably too many, but in the same breath it's about 2-3X more dangerous than a bad flu season in terms of hospitalization. I would argue the response is generally more than 2-3X that of a regular flu year. 

I also think, why not do hybrid? If your a parent who is concerned (rightfully so) then you have the option to have your kid learn to attend school via zoom. You also have the option to send them to school with a mask. You also have the option to send them to school without a mask. It gives various options of protection while offering a learning environment. Maybe not the best solution, but also provides alternatives for individuals for the next 2-4 months until they give the approval to administer to those over 2 years old. 

Other side note: I'm sure your ER friends are seeing some terrible shit. no doubt there. I have friends in the medical community who express the same point of view. I would only counter saying that those individuals are a bit skewed right? So i work in finance, and i generally think the financial markets are teetering and horrible stuff is going to happen. Am i right? probably to extent, but also very wrong since it'll likely be okay. I'm just in the middle of it every day. Talk to a cop .... they'll have a skewed outlook on violence, drugs, etc. Talk to a mechanic and they'll have a view on why "they just don't make cars like they used to". Talk to a server about restaurant business ... they'll come away with a negative view. Truth is, those most involved don't have the luxury of being able to zoom out. They go to work and see another dying person each day. They say another child covid case. etc. 

Its also really tough to look at things objectively when it involves health and deaths. humans tend to be pretty irrational about death in general. So yes, it may be a little harsh to be critical on a topic like covid, but also it takes a little bit of that perspective because the US and World population is a big ship ... it's hard to turn big ships. You generally need to keep it moving forward, when you don't all sorts of consequences happen. so it's more a risk reward thing in my midn. 

On your medical profession - I tried to point out the fact that these same individuals were NOT worried about their kids a year ago and it wasn't until Delta that they stressed. I would actually have put myself in the same area - and my kids were back in person as soon as it was allowed for many reasons which are my own personal owns, but it was important that the school would follow recommended protocols, etc.  If I am required to wear a mask as an unvaccinated individual (which my kids are -> I am vaccinated) in a store -> same should apply to a classroom.  

So no, I don't think in this regard schools should be allowed to be laissez fair, because It more detrimentally impacts the many vs. the few.  Majority are comfortable and approve of masks in schools -> that view should not be tainted by the view of a minority when it comes to a matter of public health.  This is coming from someone who is pretty open to go places, etc -> my risks, but also I will be lining up to get my kids vax whenever eligible.