Have we ever had a player with as much raw talent as Luis Robert?

[chitownsportsfan]

1 minute ago, Rusty_Kuntz said:

Similar to Ken Griffey Jr. Probably won't be quite that level of CF as he fills out. 

One Griffey tore his hamstring it was all downhill.  He continued to have problems with it and tore it again later in his career, I think the year before he came to the Sox.  What could have been.

[ron883]

3 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

One Griffey tore his hamstring it was all downhill.  He continued to have problems with it and tore it again later in his career, I think the year before he came to the Sox.  What could have been.

He was still able to play CF after his second hamstring tear. The Sox put him there. 

[Rusty_Kuntz]

3 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

One Griffey tore his hamstring it was all downhill.  He continued to have problems with it and tore it again later in his career, I think the year before he came to the Sox.  What could have been.

He could still hit pretty well after, but yes. I think that happened with Cincinnati where he was hurt on and off for like 3 years and then never really recovered. 

[chitownsportsfan]

3 minutes ago, ron883 said:

He was still able to play CF after his second hamstring tear. The Sox put him there. 

he was able to "play CF" the same way Palka could "play RF". But that gave us the "general soreness" meme which will forever live in our hearts and he made one of the most clutch throws in WS history.

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by chitownsportsfan

[South Side Hit Men]

52 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/leaders_bat_season.shtml

Not too shabby for Albert.  Dick Allen with that monster season, mercy.

I thought it was sad that Frank Thomas' 1997 was the lone Top 10 season I was able to witness (too young to remember the 1972 season. I looked at the 15 other OG teams, and found only a few players have broken into a team's Top 10. Would chalk it up more to the disparity in talent then, and the more equitable / narrower range of talent between the best and worst players in the game today.

Top 10 Franchise bWAR Seasons OG 16 franchises, earned in the DH Era (1973-2020):

• Atlanta: J. D. Drew 2004; Darrell Evans 1973; Lonnie Smith 1989.
• Baltimore: Bobby Grich 1973; Mike Mussina 1992; Jim Palmer 1975 & 1977; Cal Ripken Jr. 1983, 1984 & 1991. 
• Boston: Mookie Betts 2018; Roger Clemens 1987 & 1990; Pedro Martinez 1999 & 2000.
• Chicago Cubs: Rick Reuschel 1977; Ryne Sandberg 1984; Sammy Sosa 2001.
• Chicago White Sox: Frank Thomas 1997.
• Cincinnati: George Foster 1977;  Joe Morgan 1973, 1974, 1975 & 1976; Jose Rijo 1993  Pete Rose 1973; Joey Votto 2017.
• Cleveland: Gaylord Perry 1974.
• Detroit: Mark Fidrych 1976; John Hiller 1973;  Justin Verlander 2011 & 2012.
• Los Angeles: Cody Bellinger 2019; Adrian Beltre 2004; Zack Greinke 2015; Clayton Kershaw 2013; Mike Piazza 1997.
• Minnesota: Bert Blyleven 1973; Rod Carew 1974, 1975 & 1977; Chuck Knoblauch 1996; Joe Mauer 2009; Kirby Puckett 1988; Johan Santana 2004.
• New York Yankees: Catfish Hunter 1975; Ron Guidry 1978; Andy Pettitte 1997.
• Oakland: Rickey Henderson 1990; Jason Giambi 2001.
• Philadelphia: Steve Carlton 1980; Lenny Dykstra 1990; Aaron Nola 2008; Mike Schmidt 1974, 1976, 1977 & 1980; Chase Utley 2008 & 2009.
• Pittsburgh: John Candelaria 1977; Barry Bonds 1990 & 1992.
• Saint Louis: Albert Pujols 2009.
• San Francisco: Barry Bonds 2001, 2002 & 2004.

[FoxForce2]

1 hour ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Bo was a great athlete, maybe one of the best of all time, but he wasn't a great baseball player.

Jackson is probably the greatest 'what if' in the history of the game.

[Dick Allen]

9 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I thought it was sad that Frank Thomas' 1997 was the lone Top 10 season I was able to witness (too young to remember the 1972 season. I looked at the 15 other OG teams, and found only a few players have broken into a team's Top 10. Would chalk it up more to the disparity in talent then, and the more equitable / narrower range of talent between the best and worst players in the game today.

Top 10 Franchise bWAR Seasons OG 16 franchises, earned in the DH Era (1973-2020):

• Atlanta: J. D. Drew 2004; Darrell Evans 1973; Lonnie Smith 1989.
• Baltimore: Bobby Grich 1973; Mike Mussina 1992; Jim Palmer 1975 & 1977; Cal Ripken Jr. 1983, 1984 & 1991. 
• Boston: Mookie Betts 2018; Roger Clemens 1987 & 1990; Pedro Martinez 1999 & 2000.
• Chicago Cubs: Rick Reuschel 1977; Ryne Sandberg 1984; Sammy Sosa 2001.
• Chicago White Sox: Frank Thomas 1997.
• Cincinnati: George Foster 1977;  Joe Morgan 1973, 1974, 1975 & 1976; Jose Rijo 1993  Pete Rose 1973; Joey Votto 2017.
• Cleveland: Gaylord Perry 1974.
• Detroit: Mark Fidrych 1976; John Hiller 1973;  Justin Verlander 2011 & 2012.
• Los Angeles: Cody Bellinger 2019; Adrian Beltre 2004; Zack Greinke 2015; Clayton Kershaw 2013; Mike Piazza 1997.
• Minnesota: Bert Blyleven 1973; Rod Carew 1974, 1975 & 1977; Chuck Knoblauch 1996; Joe Mauer 2009; Kirby Puckett 1988; Johan Santana 2004.
• New York Yankees: Catfish Hunter 1975; Ron Guidry 1978; Andy Pettitte 1997.
• Oakland: Rickey Henderson 1990; Jason Giambi 2001.
• Philadelphia: Steve Carlton 1980; Lenny Dykstra 1990; Aaron Nola 2008; Mike Schmidt 1974, 1976, 1977 & 1980; Chase Utley 2008 & 2009.
• Pittsburgh: John Candelaria 1977; Barry Bonds 1990 & 1992.
• Saint Louis: Albert Pujols 2009.
• San Francisco: Barry Bonds 2001, 2002 & 2004.

His 1994 season was more incredible. Would have been interesting to see where he would have wound up if they played a full season.

[FoxForce2]

2 hours ago, ThirdGen said:

I wish there was a way to go back and use the tools we currently use to evaluate players to evaluate players from previous generations.

I recall Dick Allen having insane power.  But I wonder how his exit velocity would compare to Robert and Jimenez.  The size and strength of today's players makes players from the 70's and 80's look like high school kids.  Frank was part of the first generation that were built like that (many through modern science).

A lot of people blame cell phones and a lack of attention for the need to screen in the stands.  The real reason is that the current generation of players- 1 through 9- hit the ball a hell of a lot harder than prior generations did.

I do believe Robert has the ability to retire as the Sox GOAT.   I've never seen such raw all around talent.

I've always been of the mind that you just can't evaluate any athlete outside of their era/time. Sure, as fans we will speculate and project a player from this time or that into another era - hell, it's fun. But it's really nothing more than playing Hot Tub Time Machine, Back To The Future or Avenger's End Game and there isn't much validity to go around. Would Cobb have put up his numbers, considering just his split grip alone, (even) in the 1930's? Would Koufax have put up those 3(4) gold-standard years coming off the lowered mound?  etc. etc. Obviously, there are numerous Metrics that can be applied to even players from the 1910's that can be adjusted to an overall picture, but the variables are so broad in range that anything approaching a quantitative truth is not doable.
Not arguing with anyone on this - just spitballing.

[lostfan]

2 hours ago, ThirdGen said:

I wish there was a way to go back and use the tools we currently use to evaluate players to evaluate players from previous generations.

I recall Dick Allen having insane power.  But I wonder how his exit velocity would compare to Robert and Jimenez.  The size and strength of today's players makes players from the 70's and 80's look like high school kids.  Frank was part of the first generation that were built like that (many through modern science).

A lot of people blame cell phones and a lack of attention for the need to screen in the stands.  The real reason is that the current generation of players- 1 through 9- hit the ball a hell of a lot harder than prior generations did.

I do believe Robert has the ability to retire as the Sox GOAT.   I've never seen such raw all around talent.

I think about this a lot. We've got so many metrics now to measure things we didn't really know how to quantify when I was a kid and I would've been so into that in the 90s. Stuff like spin rates on pitches, launch angles, exit velocity, WAR (especially dWAR), UZR, all those things.

[Bossanoveralls]

58 minutes ago, ScooterMcGee said:

I literally would go to an MLB game just to see Robert play. 

LaRussa would rest him that game.

[chitownsportsfan]

11 minutes ago, Bossanoveralls said:

LaRussa would rest him that game.

I'd demand, DEMAND a refund in a strongly worded letter.

[Bossanoveralls]

1 minute ago, chitownsportsfan said:

I'd demand, DEMAND a refund in a strongly worded letter.

If they didn't have the nets now and you were sitting close enough, you could personally bean LaRussa with your Ballpark frankfurter for not starting him.

[greg775]

21 hours ago, MnSoxFan said:

Dick Allen with very similar raw talent. 

Good point bringing up Dick Allen. Robert obviously is special if he can stay healthy. Big Frank, Dick Allen, Robert and Eloy. Yes Eloy! He's also freakishly full of superstar potential. ... I don't mention Abreu, who is one of my all time faves, but I wouldn't balk if Abreu was on some sort of list of Sox studs.

Edited August 31, 2021 by greg775

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, Rusty_Kuntz said:

Similar to Ken Griffey Jr. Probably won't be quite that level of CF as he fills out. 

The kid has 75 to 80 speed now and is built like tight end.  I don't know how much more "filling out" he can do.

[southsider2k5]

39 minutes ago, lostfan said:

I think about this a lot. We've got so many metrics now to measure things we didn't really know how to quantify when I was a kid and I would've been so into that in the 90s. Stuff like spin rates on pitches, launch angles, exit velocity, WAR (especially dWAR), UZR, all those things.

The hard part is that you can never take into account the changes into the game itself.  I mean you can compare relative dominance, but if you think about the relative eras, and how much things have changed, it is tough to quantify.  I mean Babe Ruth never played a baseball game against a black player, or a Japanese player, or even a Dominican or Cuban player.  But at the same time, Babe also never had instant replays, advanced statistics or any of the other individually tailored programming that exists today.

[southsider2k5]

2 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

I just don't see it.  He was a 3 WAR player at 27 and it was by far his best year.  For all his athletic gifts he could not hit breaking balls to save his life and defensively he was bad by every advanced metric.  Maybe he could have put it together and had a couple 5 WAR seasons, but that's a very optimistic projection given the swing and miss in his game and the not just mediocre but outright bad defense. It's hard to be negative run values in CF but he was that on both Fangraphs and B-Ref.  Maybe those metrics are just wrong, but I'll take them over the eye test.

Bo Jackson isn't just looking at his numbers. His tools were probably the loudest of that generation before his body failed him. He also did it while dedicating half of his time to another sport. He might be the biggest "what if" in the history of baseball. 

[soulfly]

3 hours ago, Quin said:

To be fair, Harold Reynolds has a high opinion of everyone as a baseball player.

Never forget, Harold said that Gordon Beckham was going to be the best 2nd basemen of his era.

[SpringfieldFan]

I think the key will be whether Robert has too much raw athletic talent for his body to withstand. If so, look out.

[chitownsportsfan]

26 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Bo Jackson isn't just looking at his numbers. His tools were probably the loudest of that generation before his body failed him. He also did it while dedicating half of his time to another sport. He might be the biggest "what if" in the history of baseball. 

His tools were loud.  So were Joe Borchard's.  He doesn't get extra credit for only playing baseball part time.  He was at best a solid regular before he got hurt.  I get it, I like Bo, he's a cool guy, big into golf now, but he had major holes in his swing and had a horrible eye.  He was a much better football player.

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

His tools were loud.  So were Joe Borchard's.  He doesn't get extra credit for only playing baseball part time.  He was at best a solid regular before he got hurt.  I get it, I like Bo, he's a cool guy, big into golf now, but he had major holes in his swing and had a horrible eye.  He was a much better football player.

This take warms me in the Chicago winter.

[chitownsportsfan]

10 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

This take warms me in the Chicago winter.

Bo is lucky he played before statcast and fangraphs.

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Bo is lucky he played before statcast and fangraphs.

I think the opposite.  His EV's and such would have been off of the charts, as would the recordings of his throwing speed.

[ptatc]

4 hours ago, Bossanoveralls said:

Bo Jackson was the best pure raw talent athlete I have seen in my lifetime.

Harold Reynolds has a very high opinion of him as a baseball player.

The best athlete I ever worked with in professional sports (not including the olympic athletes as no one agrees with me on those) was Robin Yount. Not too many players can win an MVP as a shortstop, tear up his shoulder then win an MVP as a CF. He could do everything. He, like Griffey, started in the MLB as an 18 year old.

[southsider2k5]

4 minutes ago, ptatc said:

The best athlete I ever worked with in professional sports (not including the olympic athletes as no one agrees with me on those) was Robin Yount. Not too many players can win an MVP as a shortstop, tear up his shoulder then win an MVP as a CF. He could do everything. He, like Griffey, started in the MLB as an 18 year old.

Olympic athletes are a whole other level than baseball players.  I loves me some of the Olympic sprinters and hurdlers.  Was  a HUGE Michael Johnson fan before Bolt came along and destroyed the Olympics.  The 400 M Hurdles mens race was my favorite Olympic moment this time around.

[asindc]

11 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Olympic athletes are a whole other level than baseball players.  I loves me some of the Olympic sprinters and hurdlers.  Was  a HUGE Michael Johnson fan before Bolt came along and destroyed the Olympics.  The 400 M Hurdles mens race was my favorite Olympic moment this time around.

Good to see another T&F fan here.  Both 400mh races were sublime.  By the way, I think Michael Johnson would have made a great strong safety.

Back to topic.  Answering the thread title question, Robert is the most impressive 5-tool talent I’ve ever seen with the Sox.  Of course, Bo was past his prime when he got here, but prime Bo was the best overall athlete I’ve ever seen in football or baseball.

Edited August 31, 2021 by asindc