Kopech Starting Game 2

[35thstreetswarm]

13 minutes ago, ptatc said:

A pitcher can't throw 100 pitches and be effective if they haven't worked their way up to it during the season. He could throw that many but he would fatigue probably around the 50 pitch point and probably start causing damage by 100.

Your glenohumeral joint is by design a very unstable joint because it has a large range of motion compared to for example the hip joint. Because of this it is largely dependent on small stabilizing muscles (rotator cuff, supraspinatus, infraspinatus) to keep the joint working properly. Once these fatigue, there starts to be excessive motion or instability in the joint. This in turn will start to place excessive stress on other tissue and cause damage. 

So its not that he couldn't throw 100 pitches. It's that he would be far less effective and cause fatigue which would most likely lead to damage in the joint.

That is helpful, thanks.  Seems to me, though, that he could potentially be pretty effective, and work multiple innings, at far fewer than 100 pitches.  I’m really excited to see him as an X factor in the playoffs.
 

I guess I just don’t see a huge problem with the way he’s been handled given the innings limit he was facing.  Any further “stretching” seems likely to have come at the expense of his availability at the most crucial part of the season.  I love having a well-rested Kopech for October.

[ptatc]

5 minutes ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

That is helpful, thanks.  Seems to me, though, that he could potentially be pretty effective, and work multiple innings, at far fewer than 100 pitches.  I’m really excited to see him as an X factor in the playoffs.
 

I guess I just don’t see a huge problem with the way he’s been handled given the innings limit he was facing.  Any further “stretching” seems likely to have come at the expense of his availability at the most crucial part of the season.  I love having a well-rested Kopech for October.

He should be able to handle at least 50 pitches or so without any detrimental effects based on his previous usage.

I agree. I think the Sox handled him about the best they could with the injury in the middle of it. He was never going to throw more than around 80-100 innings, it was just they were going to use them. The fact that Rodon pitched so well allowed them to take their time with him. He should be in good shape for the playoffs where he could reach up towards 80 total innings which I think was their goal.

Edited September 24, 2021 by ptatc

[South Side Hit Men]

5 minutes ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

That is helpful, thanks.  Seems to me, though, that he could potentially be pretty effective, and work multiple innings, at far fewer than 100 pitches.  I’m really excited to see him as an X factor in the playoffs.
 

I guess I just don’t see a huge problem with the way he’s been handled given the innings limit he was facing.  Any further “stretching” seems likely to have come at the expense of his availability at the most crucial part of the season.  I love having a well-rested Kopech for October.

Teams use pitch count more than inning, and also track bullpen sessions, including relievers warming up. Katz is maniacal about tracking everything he can during and after the game.

The other factor not discussed is the difference between high stress innings (in terms of pitches within innings and also the effort required, max velocity, baserunners, game situation) and innings in a normal game or low stress situation. The stress of pitching in a high leverage playoff situation will take more out of a pitcher than a regular appearance. Higher adrenalin can push athletes through it, but sometimes that backfires as they lose command by throwing too hard. 

[ptatc]

3 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Teams use pitch count more than inning, and also track bullpen sessions, including relievers warming up. Katz is maniacal about tracking everything he can during and after the game.

The other factor not discussed is the difference between high stress innings (in terms of pitches within innings and also the effort required, max velocity, baserunners, game situation) and innings in a normal game or low stress situation. The stress of pitching in a high leverage playoff situation will take more out of a pitcher than a regular appearance. Higher adrenalin can push athletes through it, but sometimes that backfires as they lose command by throwing too hard. 

Yes, pitch count is the standard now. It still mostly equates with innings as they limit innings based on pitch counts. The max effort really isn't much of a factor in today's game as it's all max effort now. Few pitchers start off slow and work their way up for intensity anymore, it's balls out from the beginning which is why most starter don't hit the lineup a 3rd time.

The one most people miss as you state is the amount of get up and downs in the bullpen as those have a greater intensity similar to a game as they may rush to get ready. This is work that the starters don't have so you can probably add a few innings on to Kopech's load from there.

[FoxForce2]

55 minutes ago, ptatc said:

 

Your glenohumeral joint is by design a very unstable joint

I'm eliminating everything else on this post. I appreciate your insights re: anatomy and the effects of activity and dynamics performed by the human body;
However: How exactly, does "my' glenohumoral joint differ from someone else's? Is a male's joint different from a female's?
But more importantly, you refer to this joint as being designed. By whom? By what team? By what individual? Where can 'they' be contacted? Did 'they' design the entire human body - or was it a collaborative effort? i.e. among a set or group of agencies.The human body - or any mammals body - is an extraordinarily complex and effective system. But to imply that our bodies have been 'designed' by some outside agency is more than a bit of a reach.

Go Sox beat the Astros.

Edited September 24, 2021 by FoxForce2

[southsider2k5]

4 minutes ago, FoxForce2 said:

I'm eliminating everything else on this post. I appreciate your insights re: anatomy and the effects of activity and dynamics performed by the human body;
However: How exactly, does "my' glenohumoral joint differ from someone else's? Is a male's joint different from a female's?
But more importantly, you refer to this joint as being designed. By whom? By what team? By what individual? Where can 'they' be contacted? Did 'they' design the entire human body - or was it a collaborative effort? i.e. among a set or group of agencies.The human body - or any mammals body - is an extraordinarily complex and effective system. But to imply that our bodies have been 'designed' by some outside agency is more than a bit of a reach.

Go Sox beat the Astros.

I think you are reading waaaaaaaay too far into this post.  I am pretty sure he is referring to human evolution here, and not whatever it is you are talking about here.

[ptatc]

15 minutes ago, FoxForce2 said:

I'm eliminating everything else on this post. I appreciate your insights re: anatomy and the effects of activity and dynamics performed by the human body;
However: How exactly, does "my' glenohumoral joint differ from someone else's? Is a male's joint different from a female's?
But more importantly, you refer to this joint as being designed. By whom? By what team? By what individual? Where can 'they' be contacted? Did 'they' design the entire human body - or was it a collaborative effort? i.e. among a set or group of agencies.The human body - or any mammals body - is an extraordinarily complex and effective system. But to imply that our bodies have been 'designed' by some outside agency is more than a bit of a reach.

Go Sox beat the Astros.

Not sure who designed it. You can go with evolution, intelligent design or anything else. Fact is that humans needs to reach over there head to accomplish function tasks so that joint needs to be relatively unstable to accomplish this. You can decide how it got there.

Everyone's glenohumeral joint is most certainly slightly different than others. I've looked at hundreds if not thousands of cadaver joints to realize this. Some muscles are bigger, some labrums are thinner, tendons can be calcified. This is why some people can throw 100 mph and other 50. The overall structure is similar but there is definitely differences.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

Honest question here - what exactly is the magic to being "stretched out" (setting aside the question of whether such a "streching" was even possible given his innings limitation)?  He has innings left and seems to be healthy and not terribly fatigued.  Isn't that what we want?  Is there a rule saying he can't go more than 2 innings if he's on fire in the playoffs merely because he's not sufficiently "stretched"?  Seems to me they were ready to ride Crochet last year if he hadn't gotten hurt and the guy was like three weeks in the bigs.  It wouldn't shock me to see them ride Kopech in similar fashion this time around.

 

Any time I see someone say how mismanaged pitchers have been I just shake my head. No one can state this for fact. What exactly were the White Sox supposed to do, leave Kopech and Crochet in the minors stretching them out to throw 5+ innings ? How many innings thrown in the minors would that have taken to accomplish and how are those innings managed to still keep him available for the postseason ?

Would those guys rather pitch in the minors for peanuts or get a big league salary and contribute to the White Sox and their playoffs run ? Are Kopech and Crochet as concerned about their chances to be starting pitchers as the disgruntled fans are or do they trust the White Sox to do what they can to keep them healthy and ready to pitch in October and in the future as starters ?

Until a fan can answer those questions I don't see how anyone can say they were mishandled.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

3 hours ago, asindc said:

How do you know?

Exactly , Kopech could be in complete agreement with how he has been handled. Sure build him up stretch him out but you don't see those posters griping about him being mishandled offering any insight on how that was supposed to be accomplished because all of that requires knowing what the player  wants for his present and his future,  and what the medical personnel have to say about it. Maybe he rather be pitching as a reliever in the big leagues now for a chance to win a World Series  and getting a bigger paycheck than toiling in the minors and having his season cut short because of innings limits without a chance to pitch at all in the playoffs or World Series.

[ptatc]

4 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Exactly , Kopech could be in complete agreement with how he has been handled. Sure build him up stretch him out but you don't see those posters griping about him being mishandled offering any insight on how that was supposed to be accomplished because all of that requires knowing what the player  wants for his present and his future,  and what the medical personnel have to say about it. Maybe he rather be pitching as a reliever in the big leagues now for a chance to win a World Series  and getting a bigger paycheck than toiling in the minors and having his season cut short because of innings limits without a chance to pitch at all in the playoffs or World Series.

To be fair, this shouldn't the primary factor in the decision for the Sox. The decision should be what is best for his future which in turn what is the best for the team to win now and in the future.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

13 minutes ago, ptatc said:

To be fair, this shouldn't the primary factor in the decision for the Sox. The decision should be what is best for his future which in turn what is the best for the team to win now and in the future.

Not the primary factor of course . Only mentioned it because as a young man he may want a 570K salary for being a big leaguer for a year. It would come in pretty handy especially if he blew out his arm again being stretched out in the minors. Maybe the Sox never asked him what he would prefer but I would like to think what ultimately was decided was a collaborative effort that included Kopech's opinion or any worries he had regarding how we was going to be handled.

[RG23SoxFan]

51 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Any time I see someone say how mismanaged pitchers have been I just shake my head. No one can state this for fact. What exactly were the White Sox supposed to do, leave Kopech and Crochet in the minors stretching them out to throw 5+ innings ? How many innings thrown in the minors would that have taken to accomplish and how are those innings managed to still keep him available for the postseason ?

Would those guys rather pitch in the minors for peanuts or get a big league salary and contribute to the White Sox and their playoffs run ? Are Kopech and Crochet as concerned about their chances to be starting pitchers as the disgruntled fans are or do they trust the White Sox to do what they can to keep them healthy and ready to pitch in October and in the future as starters ?

Until a fan can answer those questions I don't see how anyone can say they were mishandled.

I don't know if the White Sox are mismanaging Kopech and/or Crochet.  I DO know that no one on a fan message board knows either.  It is laughable reading the comments from the experts on here lol. 

[35thstreetswarm]

2 minutes ago, RG23SoxFan said:

I don't know if the White Sox are mismanaging Kopech and/or Crochet.  I DO know that no one on a fan message board knows either.  It is laughable reading the comments from the experts on here lol. 

Yeah, well you can put this in the "let's shut down the whole board, then" file.  You can say that about every aspect of team decision-making, and if you believe fans have no basis to discuss or form opinions about the direction of the team you're probably in the wrong place.

[RG23SoxFan]

12 minutes ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

Yeah, well you can put this in the "let's shut down the whole board, then" file.  You can say that about every aspect of team decision-making, and if you believe fans have no basis to discuss or form opinions about the direction of the team you're probably in the wrong place.

I respectfully disagree.  There is a big difference between commenting on what's happening in a game and what occurs behind the scenes.  We all as fans are able to watch the games and at least have partial information to form an advised opinion on that.  In regards to something like how Kopech is being handled by the organization you are flying in the dark trying to figure that out unless you have inside information.  We know nothing about discussion the organization has had with doctors, with Kopech himself, etc.. Just a ton of information missing so not sure how anyone can confidently state how things should have been done with him and how the White Sox got it wrong.  

[South Side Hit Men]

3 minutes ago, RG23SoxFan said:

I respectfully disagree.  There is a big difference between commenting on what's happening in a game and what occurs behind the scenes.  We all as fans are able to watch the games and at least have partial information to form an advised opinion on that.  In regards to something like how Kopech is being handled by the organization you are flying in the dark trying to figure that out unless you have inside information.  We know nothing about discussion the organization has had with doctors, with Kopech himself, etc.. Just a ton of information missing so not sure how anyone can confidently state how things should have been done with him and how the White Sox got it wrong.  

I felt disappointed Kopech will likely not hit 80-100 innings, but felt the team managed him (and Crochet) well. Hoped the Kimbrel trade would allow Kopech to pitch 2-3 inning outings in August, and possibly 3-5 innings in September / October (weekly), but that did not come to fruition. That said, as long as he is healthy at year-end, I'll be satisfied.

While I want the Sox to succeed, I rather lose the playoffs this year than end up injuring a pitcher for going over a reasonable threshold (same with pulling Crochet last year), or even a pending FA like Rodon. The Cubs may have been "smart" to burn Chapman in 2016, but it's not the "right" thing to do, whether the player is high profile like Chapman, or an end of the bench guy like Cordero last season.

With Katz here, and Tony appearing to heed his guidance, I feel the Sox have managed their staff as best as possible during this unprecedented season. The one area they could have sought to improve was to add one or two long or short guys in July, not high priced / cost guys like Kimbrel, but additional insurance. They really needed to do that last year, but they ended up with no approved budget to do anything beyond Jarrod Dyson at the ML minimum.

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I felt disappointed Kopech will likely not hit 80-100 innings, but felt the team managed him (and Crochet) well. Hoped the Kimbrel trade would allow Kopech to pitch 2-3 inning outings in August, and possibly 3-5 innings in September / October (weekly), but that did not come to fruition. That said, as long as he is healthy at year-end, I'll be satisfied.

While I want the Sox to succeed, I rather lose the playoffs this year than end up injuring a pitcher for going over a reasonable threshold (same with pulling Crochet last year), or even a pending FA like Rodon. The Cubs may have been "smart" to burn Chapman in 2016, but it's not the "right" thing to do, whether the player is high profile like Chapman, or an end of the bench guy like Cordero last season.

With Katz here, and Tony appearing to heed his guidance, I feel the Sox have managed their staff as best as possible during this unprecedented season. The one area they could have sought to improve was to add one or two long or short guys in July, not high priced / cost guys like Kimbrel, but additional insurance. They really needed to do that last year, but they ended up with no approved budget to do anything beyond Jarrod Dyson at the ML minimum.

Kopech gets there for sure if his health doesn't fail him.

[RG23SoxFan]

10 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I felt disappointed Kopech will likely not hit 80-100 innings, but felt the team managed him (and Crochet) well. Hoped the Kimbrel trade would allow Kopech to pitch 2-3 inning outings in August, and possibly 3-5 innings in September / October (weekly), but that did not come to fruition. That said, as long as he is healthy at year-end, I'll be satisfied.

While I want the Sox to succeed, I rather lose the playoffs this year than end up injuring a pitcher for going over a reasonable threshold (same with pulling Crochet last year), or even a pending FA like Rodon. The Cubs may have been "smart" to burn Chapman in 2016, but it's not the "right" thing to do, whether the player is high profile like Chapman, or an end of the bench guy like Cordero last season.

With Katz here, and Tony appearing to heed his guidance, I feel the Sox have managed their staff as best as possible during this unprecedented season. The one area they could have sought to improve was to add one or two long or short guys in July, not high priced / cost guys like Kimbrel, but additional insurance. They really needed to do that last year, but they ended up with no approved budget to do anything beyond Jarrod Dyson at the ML minimum.

I don't know if how they handled him was correct or not, but I agree with you that if he is able to pitch in playoff games I am satisfied as well.  I prefer a more conservative approach when handling young pitchers and/or pitchers coming off serious injuries.