Grade this year's trade deadline

[southsider2k5]

30 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Sure, but it's also not guaranteed. No GM is making a trade thinking if we get swept in the first round, we lost that trade no matter what.

Kimbrel's impact on the playoffs is not nearly as significant as people here want to make it out to be. There's nothing that says the Sox couldn't have used another arm to be equally effective in a small sample.

It's like the Chapman nonsense, the guy had an ERA over 3.5 in the playoffs for the Cubs but people act like he won the Cubs the World Series. Countless other relievers could have produced his numbers in the playoffs that year. You're not replacing Kimbrel with Aaron Burr.

Yet you could rewrite exactly that for Nick Madrigal, especially since he isn't even playable. There is also nothing that states those arms wouldn't have failed miserably.  What the Sox did do is go out and get whey they felt was the best guy on the market.  They didn't mess around with plan C or D.  They got plan A done.

[Flash]

For me, Kimbrel was incidental to their willingness to trade Madrigal. With Kimbrel we were betting on whether he could continue his dominant performance through this year and possibly next. So far it looks like a bad bet. Now, if you start with the premise of Madrigal as a trade piece, the question might be...who should we have pursued? My sense is Madrigal, either by himself or coupled with a middling asset or two, might have yielded a more attractive addition, but....obviously I wasn't in the room.  

[FoxForce2]

While I would've preferred the Iglesias pickup, -at the time- I can see how Kimbrel would look awfully good. I argue that the Sox did need relief pitching, just that we didn't need another closer.  The American League hasn't treated Kimbrel especially well this year, at least in the role of set-up, and as I recall, he wasn't especially effective in his last year in Boston. But this is all spitballing - the season that matters now starts next week.  

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

21 minutes ago, kwill said:

I don't understand these threads where the only thing it was made for is to complain about the front office. Let's live in the moment and enjoy October. After that you can judge, criticize or who knows maybe even leave a few positive comments. 

I think the funny part about this is I've been called a Hahn apologist here more times than I can count. I think Hahn in general has done a nice job, but at the same time I'm going to call out a deal that I think is a bad deal when I see one, regardless of who is making it.

[Superstar Lamar]

I wonder if Kimbrel's presence changes the way Hendriks is used in the playoffs?  Larussa could confidently use him for 2 inning saves, knowing Kimbrel can hold down the role if needed the next day.  

[CentralChamps21]

15 minutes ago, Superstar Lamar said:

I wonder if Kimbrel's presence changes the way Hendriks is used in the playoffs?  Larussa could confidently use him for 2 inning saves, knowing Kimbrel can hold down the role if needed the next day.  

I think they will go with more pre-defined roles for the postseason: Tepera 6th, Bummer 7th, Kimbrel 8th, Hendriks 9th. Kopech if you need someone before the 6th.

[Colome's Hat]

8 minutes ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

I think they will go with more pre-defined roles for the postseason: Tepera 6th, Bummer 7th, Kimbrel 8th, Hendriks 9th. Kopech if you need someone before the 6th.

Yeah.  But I do think Tony might feel more comfortable rotating, especially if Tepera keeps pitching lights out.  Like I could see especially against the Astros, Tepara in the 7th and two innings of Liam.  Following day, use Kimbrel in the 9th.  I think we will likely see the value of getting Kimbrel in the playoffs too.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

At THIS POINT, it is hard to not give this deadline an D/F.

 

Hernandez has been worthless.

Kimbrell has been horrid.

Tepera has been good.

No RF added.

[Chisoxfn]

Thus far -> total F. The highest profile move they made was for an expensive, elite reliever and they paid a premium price. The player has an ERA over 5...yes he could be dynamic in the playoffs and that would change the grade but as of today...nothing short of an F.  The Hernandez move, one I liked at the time, has had its challenges too, with the best move thus far really having been the Tepera move.

But no other way of saying that the moves were a total F.  

[mqr]

Everything that has happened thus far is basically totally irrelevant. These guys were brought in to do one thing, help the team win playoff games. Let's talk again after the World Series.

Would I feel better about if they came out gangbusters? Sure, but it still wouldn't make an actual difference. 

Grade - Incomplete

[ShoeLessRob]

Actually Cesar was brought in so Leury wouldn’t be an every day starter at 2nd, yet Leury has vastly outplayed Cesar since the trade.

 

Kimbrel was brought in to stabilize the bullpen due to lack of a RH set up man and our failures in the 8th inning. He has done neither of those. 

[mqr]

57 minutes ago, ShoeLessRob said:

Kimbrel was brought in to stabilize the bullpen due to lack of a RH set up man and our failures in the 8th inning. He has done neither of those. 

If he locks it in in October who cares. 

[Snopek]

3 hours ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

At THIS POINT, it is hard to not give this deadline an D/F.

 

Hernandez has been worthless.

Kimbrell has been horrid.

Tepera has been good.

No RF added.

Seems like this has been overshadowed a bit by the performances of Kimbrel and Cesar. 

Sure, hindsight is 20/20, but banking on some combination of Goodwin, Hamilton, Vaughn, Sheets and Engel to effectively fill that role feels like a "good enough" approach, which is inconsistent with their other "going for it" moves. 

[35thstreetswarm]

11 minutes ago, Snopek said:

Seems like this has been overshadowed a bit by the performances of Kimbrel and Cesar. 

Sure, hindsight is 20/20, but banking on some combination of Goodwin, Hamilton, Vaughn, Sheets and Engel to effectively fill that role feels like a "good enough" approach, which is inconsistent with their other "going for it" moves. 

I have to say, though, that the feeling at the time -- which I think was justified -- was that our lineup was pretty stacked for the foreseeable future, and that adding yet another bat (in the RF position) was kind of a luxury rather than a need.  This was true *particularly* when we assumed we had Engel to fall back on to provide superior defense and an increasingly effective offensive game.  His continued injuries have really hurt.  Our recent offensive struggles also make it a little harder to remember that the lineup was supposed to be this team's strength, which I still believe it will be.  But the old adage "you don't need an all-star at every position" seemed to fit when we were looking at all-star caliber talent at C, 1st, SS, 3rd, LF and CF.  The bullpen, which had been imploding nightly at the time of the deadline, seemed like a much greater need.

[hankchifan]

4 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

Thus far -> total F. The highest profile move they made was for an expensive, elite reliever and they paid a premium price. The player has an ERA over 5...yes he could be dynamic in the playoffs and that would change the grade but as of today...nothing short of an F.  The Hernandez move, one I liked at the time, has had its challenges too, with the best move thus far really having been the Tepera move.

But no other way of saying that the moves were a total F.  

The worst move was the one that they did not make. A good defensive RF with pop.

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

I have to say, though, that the feeling at the time -- which I think was justified -- was that our lineup was pretty stacked for the foreseeable future, and that adding yet another bat (in the RF position) was kind of a luxury rather than a need.  This was true *particularly* when we assumed we had Engel to fall back on to provide superior defense and an increasingly effective offensive game.  His continued injuries have really hurt.  Our recent offensive struggles also make it a little harder to remember that the lineup was supposed to be this team's strength, which I still believe it will be.  But the old adage "you don't need an all-star at every position" seemed to fit when we were looking at all-star caliber talent at C, 1st, SS, 3rd, LF and CF.  The bullpen, which had been imploding nightly at the time of the deadline, seemed like a much greater need.

I feel like most people who don't like the reliever trades are glossing over how scary the pen was right before the deadline.  Ryan Burr was getting big set up man innings was how bad things had gotten.  Bummer had an ERA near 5 at this point.  Heuer was still over 5 for his ERA.  Kopech was just off of injury and wasn't doing back to backs.  Crochet had given up earned runs in four straight outings.  Ruiz had his struggles.  ReyLo had just come up from the minors  in the 2nd half of the month and his 8 ERA at AAA, and hadn't really established himself as trustworthy yet. Burdi had been awful and send out to AAA. 

It was scary trying to get the ball to Hendriks, especially the 2nd half of July.

You can make an argument about WHO we should have gotten, but the pen was really, really bad during this stretch is an absolute fact.

[ChiSox59]

One of the worst parts of the deadline was selling low on Heuer.  He's been better than Kimbrel by himself and is going to be a great pen peice for a long time.  I have no problem selling high on relievers but selling low was so puzzling.  I know Hahn specifically said there was no deal without Codi, but man it was an overpay without him.  Adding him in was just salt in the wound. 

[southsider2k5]

7 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

One of the worst parts of the deadline was selling low on Heuer.  He's been better than Kimbrel by himself and is going to be a great pen peice for a long time.  I have no problem selling high on relievers but selling low was so puzzling.  I know Hahn specifically said there was no deal without Codi, but man it was an overpay without him.  Adding him in was just salt in the wound. 

The funny thing is he had a much lower FIP with the Sox (3.68), than he has had with the Cubs (4.39) even though his ERA with the Cubs had been lower (5.12 Sox vs 3.25 Cubs).  His strikeouts have collapsed with the Cubs 17 in 27 innings vs 39 in 38.2 IP with the Sox.  His walks have also jumped 13 in 27 IP with Cubs vs 10 in 38.2 IP for Sox.  His BABIP is .234 with the Cubs, and was .367 with the Sox.

[Harry Chappas]

7 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

The funny thing is he had a much lower FIP with the Sox (3.68), than he has had with the Cubs (4.39) even though his ERA with the Cubs had been lower (5.12 Sox vs 3.25 Cubs).  His strikeouts have collapsed with the Cubs 17 in 27 innings vs 39 in 38.2 IP with the Sox.  His walks have also jumped 13 in 27 IP with Cubs vs 10 in 38.2 IP for Sox.  His BABIP is .234 with the Cubs, and was .367 with the Sox.

Facing the NL will do that for a guy.

At the end of July the biggest issues were 

Bullpen

Catching question mark

RF 

2B

Since the end of July the bullpen guys have settled down and the injured guys have returned 

 

 

 

[ChiSox59]

11 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

The funny thing is he had a much lower FIP with the Sox (3.68), than he has had with the Cubs (4.39) even though his ERA with the Cubs had been lower (5.12 Sox vs 3.25 Cubs).  His strikeouts have collapsed with the Cubs 17 in 27 innings vs 39 in 38.2 IP with the Sox.  His walks have also jumped 13 in 27 IP with Cubs vs 10 in 38.2 IP for Sox.  His BABIP is .234 with the Cubs, and was .367 with the Sox.

Yeah, I admittedly didn't take a deep dive into Codi's Cubs numbers, but he's still been just a serviceable as Kimbrel.  I'll certainly take Kimbrel over Heuer for the 2021 playoffs.  But still just a huge overpay, and I remain confident that Codi is going to be a very nice backend reliever for a long time, and we controlled him for peanuts. 

[SoxAce]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

The funny thing is he had a much lower FIP with the Sox (3.68), than he has had with the Cubs (4.39) even though his ERA with the Cubs had been lower (5.12 Sox vs 3.25 Cubs).  His strikeouts have collapsed with the Cubs 17 in 27 innings vs 39 in 38.2 IP with the Sox.  His walks have also jumped 13 in 27 IP with Cubs vs 10 in 38.2 IP for Sox.  His BABIP is .234 with the Cubs, and was .367 with the Sox.

Boom. Said something earlier in here about Heuer being very bad recently too. Thank you.

[chw42]

8 minutes ago, SoxAce said:

Boom. Said something earlier in here about Heuer being very bad recently too. Thank you.

How he is pitching with the Cubs is kind of what he was with the Sox for the last month he was here. He wasn't striking people out. He was pitching to contact and walking people. He was basically the relief version of Dallas Keuchel with his peripherals, but with elite stuff. I wonder if he'll ever return to the guy he was in 2020. That Heuer blew guys away with a high 90s power sinker and had a great slider. Now he's averaging 95 on his fastball and hanging his sliders a lot. His change up got better in 2021, but the rest of his pitches regressed a lot. 

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

17 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

One of the worst parts of the deadline was selling low on Heuer.  He's been better than Kimbrel by himself and is going to be a great pen peice for a long time.  I have no problem selling high on relievers but selling low was so puzzling.  I know Hahn specifically said there was no deal without Codi, but man it was an overpay without him.  Adding him in was just salt in the wound. 

this is where I mostly was too.  Madrigal, okay but to include Heuer?  I didn't see the point, nor believed Heuer would be a deal breaker. There had to be someone else to add.

[ChiSox59]

11 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

this is where I mostly was too.  Madrigal, okay but to include Heuer?  I didn't see the point, nor believed Heuer would be a deal breaker. There had to be someone else to add.

Yeah.  I mean the market dictated the return, but obviously the Cubs were very incentivized to move Kimbrel and seeing as though he now a Sox, no one was offering more.  Hahn did specifically say that Heuer was the hold-up that the cubs we not blinking without him, and Hahn finally agreed to include on deadline morning.  

But yeah.  Big Codi fan myself (as well as Nicky), so it was a tough one for me to swallow.  Hopefully Craig shows up with the bright lights turn on next week.  

[hi8is]

I hate it more than the day the deals were made. In 2023 I will despise it. By 2027 I will put it up there with the He Who Shall Not Be Named trade.