MLB 2021-2 off season thread

[Balta1701]

10 hours ago, Sambuca said:

This is kind of intriguing, but I honestly have no idea what his value is.  Very hard player to gauge.  

For the Rays to move him, they would probably expect the return of a 4 win player with 3 years of control remaining, which is a lot. But he’s only been a <2 win player the last 2 seasons (short 2020 included). A 2 win player in his arb years shouldn’t be worth very much, but you’d probably have to pay a lot more based on his pedigree and 2019.

This seems like a guy I’d target if I was pretty desperate for a LH bat solution at the trade deadline.

[poppysox]

10 hours ago, SoxAce said:

Please don't trade with the Rays and that front office.

I know what you are saying... the best front office in baseball IMO.

[ChiSox59]

I've always been a fan of Meadows, but I don't love the fit.  He's checks a good amount of boxes for the Sox, but he's a very poor defender.  We need at least an average RF defensively.  Wouldn't be a terrible fallback option if Sox strike out on Conforto, but there are other trade options I'd explore first.  Even though I don't really want him, I'd much prefer just giving Castellanos $ than providing the Rays a chance to fleece us . 

[Chicago White Sox]

Just now, ChiSox59 said:

I've always been a fan of Meadows, but I don't love the fit.  He's checks a good amount of boxes for the Sox, but he's a very poor defender.  We need at least an average RF defensively.  Wouldn't be a terrible fallback option if Sox strike out on Conforto, but there are other trade options I'd explore first.  Even though I don't really want him, I'd much prefer just giving Castellanos $ than providing the Rays a chance to fleece us . 

Fully agree.

[poppysox]

12 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I've always been a fan of Meadows, but I don't love the fit.  He's checks a good amount of boxes for the Sox, but he's a very poor defender.  We need at least an average RF defensively.  Wouldn't be a terrible fallback option if Sox strike out on Conforto, but there are other trade options I'd explore first.  Even though I don't really want him, I'd much prefer just giving Castellanos $ than providing the Rays a chance to fleece us . 

If "he's a very poor defender" why would we take him over Vaughn/Sheets?  

[ChiSox59]

2 minutes ago, poppysox said:

If "he's a very poor defender" why would we take him over Vaughn/Sheets?  

I literally just said he's not a good fit.  But he's miles and miles and miles better than Sheets.

Vaughn is my LF.  Eloy DH. 

[poppysox]

2 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

I literally just said he's not a good fit.  But he's miles and miles and miles better than Sheets.

Vaughn is my LF.  Eloy DH. 

Does Grandal DH when not catching?

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Does Grandal DH when not catching?

He DH'd in 9 games last year. 

[ChiSox59]

6 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Does Grandal DH when not catching?

Sure, he can DH and play some 1B here and there.  There aren't as many moving parts as you seem to think.  I guess when you're trying to jam Sheets into an everyday role it gets a bit crowded, but that's the beauty of depth.  Gavin should be in AAA playing everyday until an injury.  He's a nice fallback option.  He should not be shoehorned into an everyday role from the get go, and if he is, we're all going to be disappointed. 

Eloy and Vaughn can cover LF and DH.  Grandal is going to catch most days.  Abreu is going to play 1B most days.  Whoever we sign to play RF is going to play RF most days.  When Grandal needs to DH or play 1B, Vaughn is probably most likely to get the breather against the tough righty.  IF Sox are dumb enough to run Eloy out in LF everyday, it won't take long for this little problem to solve itself when he runs into a wall in mid April. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by ChiSox59

[poppysox]

23 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Sure, he can DH and play some 1B here and there.  There aren't as many moving parts as you seem to think.  I guess when you're trying to jam Sheets into an everyday role it gets a bit crowded, but that's the beauty of depth.  Gavin should be in AAA playing everyday until an injury.  He's a nice fallback option.  He should not be shoehorned into an everyday role from the get go, and if he is, we're all going to be disappointed. 

Eloy and Vaughn can cover LF and DH.  Grandal is going to catch most days.  Abreu is going to play 1B most days.  Whoever we sign to play RF is going to play RF most days.  When Grandal needs to DH or play 1B, Vaughn is probably most likely to get the breather against the tough righty.  IF Sox are dumb enough to run Eloy out in LF everyday, it won't take long for this little problem to solve itself when he runs into a wall in mid April. 

Gavin will be on the major league team and play regularly against right-handers IMO.  

[ChiSox59]

3 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Gavin will be on the major league team and play regularly against right-handers IMO.  

I think that would be a horrible mistake.  He has 2 option years left. We're in the midst of our window.  Let's not waste it trying to make a strong-side platoon player out of a guy with very little pedigree and minor league success. Not to mention he is a bull in a china shop in RF, he's a poor 1B and we have plenty of those guys to go around anyway.  What could possibly go wrong? 

His lefty stick is nice.  Not suggesting we get rid of him.  But any scenario that involves Gavin playing most of the time against RHP completely punts OF defense which I am very much again.  Even if he DHs.  Sheets will get plenty of MLB at bats in 22 even if he doesn't break camp with a starting role.  

[Tnetennba]

28 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Sure, he can DH and play some 1B here and there.  There aren't as many moving parts as you seem to think.  I guess when you're trying to jam Sheets into an everyday role it gets a bit crowded, but that's the beauty of depth.  Gavin should be in AAA playing everyday until an injury.  He's a nice fallback option.  He should not be shoehorned into an everyday role from the get go, and if he is, we're all going to be disappointed. 

Eloy and Vaughn can cover LF and DH.  Grandal is going to catch most days.  Abreu is going to play 1B most days.  Whoever we sign to play RF is going to play RF most days.  When Grandal needs to DH or play 1B, Vaughn is probably most likely to get the breather against the tough righty.  IF Sox are dumb enough to run Eloy out in LF everyday, it won't take long for this little problem to solve itself when he runs into a wall in mid April. 

162 or whatever this year will be is a grind.  Guys get banged up and need days off.  Eloy is bound to hurt himself in LF to where he might need to sit a game or two (please nothing serious again!).  There really isn't a log jam amongst guys deserving to play everyday when you factor in rest/maintenance days over the course of a long season.

[ChiSox59]

Just now, Tnetennba said:

162 or whatever this year will be is a grind.  Guys get banged up and need days off.  Eloy is bound to hurt himself in LF to where he might need to sit a game or two (please nothing serious again!).  There really isn't a log jam amongst guys deserving to play everyday when you factor in rest/maintenance days over the course of a long season.

Agreed. 

[Two-Gun Pete]

Since they both suck at defense, I'll just put this out there:

Andrew Vaughn vs RHP: 68 wRC+

Gavin Sheets vs RHP: 143 wRC+.

Yes, its SSS, and one has more of a prospect pedigree than the other. I just think that since they both suck at fielding, I don't know that I would automatically write in Vaughn into the 26 man roster. Especially when this roster is desperate for lefty production.

IMO, this isn't a question of who is the better prospect, so much as who is the better FIT for the rest of this roster.

(Yes, I already know that Vaughn did well vs LHP, but we already have a roster full of guys that can do that, AND field a position.)

Edited February 14, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[Two-Gun Pete]

2 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

But any scenario that involves Gavin playing most of the time against RHP completely punts OF defense which I am very much again.  Even if he DHs. 

How would Sheets DHing impact OF defense?

I mean, he'll be chomping on sunflower seeds in the dugout while the actual OFers are playing in the OF.

And yes, I agree that this org punts on OF defense too much. 

Thanks.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

How would Sheets DHing impact OF defense?

I mean, he'll be chomping on sunflower seeds in the dugout while the actual OFers are playing in the OF.

And yes, I agree that this org punts on OF defense too much. 

Thanks.

Pretty simple really.

If Sheets in DHing, Eloy and Vaughn are both in the OF.  That is an easy no for me.  If Sheets is in RF, Eloy or Vaughn are in LF.  Again, easy no for me.   Only 1 of those 3 should be playing OF at any given time with any sort of consistency.  The Sox need to sign a left handed hitting RF that is passable defensively.  There is one guy out there that just so happens to be a near perfect fit.  

[Two-Gun Pete]

10 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Pretty simple really.

If Sheets in DHing, Eloy and Vaughn are both in the OF.  That is an easy no for me.  If Sheets is in RF, Eloy or Vaughn are in LF.  Again, easy no for me.   Only 1 of those 3 should be playing OF at any given time with any sort of consistency.  The Sox need to sign a left handed hitting RF that is passable defensively.  There is one guy out there that just so happens to be a near perfect fit.  

I'm using the working assumption that this org will sign a proper OFer for RF.

To me, that means that it's a question of EITHER Vaughn or Sheets as primary DH. But not both on Opening Day.

Sheets or Vaughn can't hurt the defense if they're the DH most days, assuming they sign an OFer.

 

For me, while I'd prefer a LHH OFer, in looking at the OF defensively, its more important to find someone who can field the position now during the offseason. If they find a OFer who happens to be RHH, so be it, as long as he isn't a negative with the glove.

Then, assuming they don't moronically look to acquire another closer they don't need, look for a lefty bat at the TDL. 

[ChiSox59]

Just now, Two-Gun Pete said:

I'm using the working assumption that this org will sign a proper OFer for RF.

To me, that means that it's a question of EITHER Vaughn or Sheets as primary DH. But not both on Opening Day.

Sheets or Vaughn can't hurt the defense if they're the DH most days, assuming they sign an OFer.

For me, while I'd prefer a LHH OFer, in looking at the OF defensively, its more important to find someone who can field the position now during the offseason. If they find a OFer who happens to be RHH, so be it, as long as he isn't a negative with the glove.

Then, assuming they don't moronically look to acquire another closer they don't need, look for a lefty bat at the TDL. 

I mean, Vaughn is the incredibly easy answer between Sheets and Vaughn.  IDGAF about SSS splits you laid out from 21.   Making AV a weakside platoon player at this point in his career to cater to Sheets would be an astronomically stupid decision. Sheets is just a guy that happens to have a skillset the Sox badly lack. Vaughn is a future cornerstone of this franchise. There is no chance he is not on the OD roster if he's healthy. 

I am hopeful the Sox have learned their lesson with Eloy and mostly DH him moving forward.  He can play LF once or twice a week to keep him happy and keep his bat in lineup in interleague games, but I am not running him out there as the primary LF any longer.  I would play Vaughn in LF most of the time for the next couple seasons.  He graded out around average defensively among his peers in LF.  He's not going to win a GG, but hes fine and can improve.  He's not a danger to himself and others.  IIRC, you are one of the posters here that despises AV, so I suspect you'll disagree.  THat's fine.  That all said, based on how the Sox played Eloy when he returned from his injury, do I expect them to play him in LF consistently.  Not how I would do it, but oh well.  At least don't double down on stupid and flank him in RF with two 1B, one of which is quite literally a guy I would hesitate to plug into RF defensively on my beer league softball team (Sheets). 

I am also operating under the assumption that the Sox sign a real RF.  If they don't, well....the calculus changes.  But there is basically no way to avoid a league worst OF defense with 2 of Eloy/Vaughn/Sheets are playing the OF daily, and you're consistency putting your best asset in Robert in danger.  Doesn't make a lick of sense.  

Just sign Conforto and let the chips fall where they may.  There will be plenty of at bats to go around.  

[Two-Gun Pete]

3 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

1. Making AV a weakside platoon player at this point in his career to cater to Sheets would be an astronomically stupid decision. 

2. Sheets is just a guy that happens to have a skillset the Sox badly lack.

3. Vaughn is a future cornerstone of this franchise.

4. I am hopeful the Sox have learned their lesson with Eloy and mostly DH him moving forward. 

5. IIRC, you are one of the posters here that despises AV, so I suspect you'll disagree. 

1. No one wants to make Vaughn a platoon player. But if he cannot hit RHP, there really isn't a spot for him here, in all honesty.

2. DING! DING! DING! DING! DING!!!!!!! Thats the entire crux of the argument. If (and I'll grant you that's an "If") Sheets is anywhere near the bat vs RHP he was in 21, how in GOD'S NAME can you not have him here?

I get that he's an oaf, and he can't play a position. But he very well might be able to do something that NO ONE else in the roster can do.

3. I dont disagree. That is, IF he can actually hit RHP. I'll agree that he was put into an impossible situation, due to injuries in 21. But he's not an OFer, he's a guy that they have standing so deep that he's 2 steps away from the front row of the bleachers.

Oh, and for him to be league-average vs RHP, he'd need a 47% quantum leap in wRC+ to go from 68 to 100. This, coupled with him not being an OFer means that he doesn't need to be here until he can improve one or both issues.

4. I've made peace with the reality that Jimenez will be in LF more often than not in 2022. Hes already signed a contract, so he's gonna be out there, for better or worse.

5. This is really silly. We're all diehards here. And NONE of us "hate" people we don't know personally; none of us "hate" any of the players on this team.

I did HATE the 69 wRC+ vs RHP that Vaughn did in 21. His inferior performance hurt the team.

But (and hear me out) hating a player's performance is NOT the same as hating a player. You're a better poster than that.

[ChiSox59]

5 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

1. No one wants to make Vaughn a platoon player. But if he cannot hit RHP, there really isn't a spot for him here, in all honesty.

2. DING! DING! DING! DING! DING!!!!!!! Thats the entire crux of the argument. If (and I'll grant you that's an "If") Sheets is anywhere near the bat vs RHP he was in 21, how in GOD'S NAME can you not have him here?

I get that he's an oaf, and he can't play a position. But he very well might be able to do something that NO ONE else in the roster can do.

3. I dont disagree. That is, IF he can actually hit RHP. I'll agree that he was put into an impossible situation, due to injuries in 21. But he's not an OFer, he's a guy that they have standing so deep that he's 2 steps away from the front row of the bleachers.

Oh, and for him to be league-average vs RHP, he'd need a 47% quantum leap in wRC+ to go from 68 to 100. This, coupled with him not being an OFer means that he doesn't need to be here until he can improve one or both issues.

4. I've made peace with the reality that Jimenez will be in LF more often than not in 2022. Hes already signed a contract, so he's gonna be out there, for better or worse.

5. This is really silly. We're all diehards here. And NONE of us "hate" people we don't know personally; none of us "hate" any of the players on this team.

I did HATE the 69 wRC+ vs RHP that Vaughn did in 21. His inferior performance hurt the team.

But (and hear me out) hating a player's performance is NOT the same as hating a player. You're a better poster than that.

I am not overly concerned about a former golden spikes winner's 298 PA sample size against RHP in a year in which: 

1) he was facing MLB pitching for the first time in his career;

2) quite literally did not play baseball in 2020;

3) had zero at bats above A ball in his career;

4) struggled with a back injury 2nd half of the season;  

5) had a 4-5 week period in the summer where he was our most effective hitter before he got hurt and;

6) the only reason he was out there to begin the season was due to the guy he was replacing injuring himself because he is an awful OF. 

The sky is the limit for AV offensively.  Completely unconcerned with 2021 results. 

I also don't think its fair to call him "not an OF".  He was plenty serviceable out there as it compares to LF league-wise while playing a position he hadn't played in like a decade.  He did an admirable job in LF and I don't see why he couldn't continue to play out there and improve with more experience. 

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, ChiSox59 said:

I am not overly concerned about a former golden spikes winner's 298 PA sample size against RHP in a year in which: 

1) he was facing MLB pitching for the first time in his career;

2) quite literally did not play baseball in 2020;

3) had zero at bats above A ball in his career;

4) struggled with a back injury 2nd half of the season;  

5) had a 4-5 week period in the summer where he was our most effective hitter before he got hurt and;

6) the only reason he was out there to begin the season was due to the guy he was replacing injuring himself because he is an awful OF. 

The sky is the limit for AV offensively.  Completely unconcerned with 2021 results. 

I also don't think its fair to call him "not an OF".  He was plenty serviceable out there as it compares to LF league-wise while playing a position he hadn't played in like a decade.  He did an admirable job in LF and I don't see why he couldn't continue to play out there and improve with more experience. 

The dumbest thing possible with Vaughn is to quote SSS splits from 2021 as if he is anywhere close to a finished product. 

[michelangelosmonkey]

3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

The dumbest thing possible with Vaughn is to quote SSS splits from 2021 as if he is anywhere close to a finished product. 

The thing that terrifies me about trading AV is looking at the comparables with Mike Schmidt.  MS and AV both debuted to much acclaim at 23, each had a bit over 400 at bats, each put up a "disappointing" OPS around .700, and neither could touch right handed pitching (almost identical .610 OPS).  And then, as expected Mike Schmidt at 24 began destroying baseball.  I'm not saying AV will become a Hall of Famer...but it's not ridiculous to say that is his upside.  Also note...MS career OPS vs RH pitchers settled in just under .900 over his next 7000 at bats.  A bit of patience hoping for greatness.  

[Two-Gun Pete]

2 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

I am not overly concerned about a former golden spikes winner's 298 PA sample size against RHP in a year in which: 

1) he was facing MLB pitching for the first time in his career;

2) quite literally did not play baseball in 2020;

3) had zero at bats above A ball in his career;

4) struggled with a back injury 2nd half of the season;  

5) had a 4-5 week period in the summer where he was our most effective hitter before he got hurt and;

6) the only reason he was out there to begin the season was due to the guy he was replacing injuring himself because he is an awful OF. 

The sky is the limit for AV offensively.  Completely unconcerned with 2021 results. 

I also don't think its fair to call him "not an OF".  He was plenty serviceable out there as it compares to LF league-wise while playing a position he hadn't played in like a decade.  He did an admirable job in LF and I don't see why he couldn't continue to play out there and improve with more experience. 

Pretty much all of these things are also true about Sheets as well: faced MLB pitching for the 1st time, played OF, where he hadn't previously, didn't play in 2020, and yes, was only in MLB because of the cavalcade of injuries.

The key difference is that he's a LH bat, full stop.

Insofar as AV as an OFer, his lack of athleticism/lack of range is what undercuts him ever becoming an average defender. He, like Jimenez and Sheets, are all positioned extremely deep, so as to hide their weaknesses. After all, if he were truly a capable defender in the OF, why wouldn't his college have him play there, and an inferior athlete take 1B?

 

And in no way am I doubting the man's future. I believe that he will be a big part of this club's future, post-Abreu.

Its just as you said, that Sheets might be able to do what this roster desperately needs. And if they get a proper OFer for RF, there's really only room for one of them in the 26 man roster on Opening Day.

[tray]

5 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Insofar as AV as an OFer, his lack of athleticism/lack of range is what undercuts him ever becoming an average defender.

That is a fact but be careful because you might be accused of hating that player. LOL.

You are right about how Vaughn and other outfielders cover up for their lack of speed by making sure they are positioned  correctly for each hitter. No problem there - that is always a good idea.  However, Vaughn went a step further than that  by employing what almost became a signature AV dive/belly flop (like the Fosbury flop became in gymnastics). After Vaughn continued to lay himself out time after time to catch  balls  it became obvious that he  had to dive because he lacked the speed  to get to balls that would have been routine plays for average Major league outfielders.  (Google "Andrew Vaughn dives for a ball" or something like that to see a bunch of them.)

Here is one diving belly flop catch made by Vaughn where he is positioned pretty well but breaks a few steps left toward  center and then dives to catch the ball to his right side before he crashes down.  If you look back on some of his dives, you see the same thing over and again. He has to dive to compensate for lack of speed (and he has the hang time of a lead balloon.)

Vaughn is a  decent first base prospect but he is blocked for several years at that position  by Jose Abreu.   That leads me to suggest some hypothetical trades (or maybe diabolical trade suggestions to some Vaughn fans) that could help Vaughn develop, help the Sox in 2022 and likewise benefit  the team that  gets AV:

Vaughn to the Dodgers for Lux or Bellinger, or

Vaughn to the Cubs for Wilson Contreras  and Ed Henry (or one of their other top prospects).

Vaughn and Kimbrel to ____ for _____. (you fill in the blanks)

If /when Vaughn gone,  that might unblock a path for Burgur  to finally make the team or for Sheets to become a full time player at DH/1B.  

 

 

[ChiSox59]

10 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Pretty much all of these things are also true about Sheets as well: faced MLB pitching for the 1st time, played OF, where he hadn't previously, didn't play in 2020, and yes, was only in MLB because of the cavalcade of injuries.

The key difference is that he's a LH bat, full stop.

Insofar as AV as an OFer, his lack of athleticism/lack of range is what undercuts him ever becoming an average defender. He, like Jimenez and Sheets, are all positioned extremely deep, so as to hide their weaknesses. After all, if he were truly a capable defender in the OF, why wouldn't his college have him play there, and an inferior athlete take 1B?

 

And in no way am I doubting the man's future. I believe that he will be a big part of this club's future, post-Abreu.

Its just as you said, that Sheets might be able to do what this roster desperately needs. And if they get a proper OFer for RF, there's really only room for one of them in the 26 man roster on Opening Day.

To the last point, there is basically no chance Sheets is on the roster and AV isn’t assuming health. But I’ll just leave it there and agree to disagree on the rest. We’ll find out soon enough.