MLB 2021-2 off season thread

[Jack Parkman]

4 minutes ago, DirtySox said:

Where as your contributions are raising the quality of the board?

Are you serious?

None of this discussion would even be happening if a certain section would just accept that mega contracts aren't happening until they actually sign one. 

I'm willing to indulge in players that cost under $150M but not more than that. 

I'm tired of having this argument every winter. 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said:

If you remember the negotiations, I don't ever think the Sox had the top offer for Machado. 

They wanted Machado, but they wanted him on their terms. 

I do not think they offered Machado the $250M contract until he already had the $300M offer from the Padres. 

???…look bro, I’m not going to defend the Sox when it comes to Machado, but they definitely had the high offer of 8/$250M on the table well before the Padres entered the mix.  They then added two option years on top of that to counter San Diego’s $300M deal, which was insanely stupid to think he’d accept that, but for a long period of time it was us negotiating against ourselves with the Phillies focused on Harper.  The Sox had a very serious offer for a stretch of time, but completely botched it in the end.  Regardless, they were prepared to spend a boatload of money on a free agent despite your conspiracy theories that say otherwise.

[Snopek]

5 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I'm fine discussing moves that have a chance of actually happening rather than wasting bandwidth on stuff that is a fantasy. Maybe I should just ignore those posts and let them indulge in their fantasy world. 

I just feel like some of the offseason discussion drags down the quality of the board. 

I get where you're coming from to some extent, but a thing I dig about this board is seeing people come at stuff from different angles with different opinions. I don't agree with a lot of it, and I don't have to.

Most of us aren't reporters or journalists with our credibility on the line if we're wrong or don't have confident takes on everything. We're just dumb fans taking guesses, and it's fun as hell. 

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said:

Please explain how I'm moving goalposts?

First off I don't understand the concept. 

The Sox have never signed a 9 figure contract yet. They offered one to Wheeler and it wasn't accepted. Until they actually get one done, I think it's unreasonable to expect one. 

This is just stupid.  The Sox will add a $100M contract sooner rather than later.  I’m not optimistic they’ll ever add a $300M contract with Jerry as owner, but $100M is a low barrier to cross.  Hell, there is a legit chance Giolito agrees to an extension that surpasses that amount this ofxseason.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, maloney.adam said:

 

There goes my offseason plan.

[caulfield12]

8 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

???…look bro, I’m not going to defend the Sox when it comes to Machado, but they definitely had the high offer of 8/$250M on the table well before the Padres entered the mix.  They then added two option years on top of that to counter San Diego’s $300M deal, which was insanely stupid to think he’d accept that, but for a long period of time it was us negotiating against ourselves with the Phillies focused on Harper.  The Sox had a very serious offer for a stretch of time, but completely botched it in the end.  Regardless, they were prepared to spend a boatload of money on a free agent despite your conspiracy theories that say otherwise.

The White Sox will never go over their predetermined amount, unless it's for in-house guys or someone like Robert.

You avoid bad deals like Alex Gordon, but it also leaves you on the outside looking in more often than not.

A seat at the table.

And realistically, we're not one of those Top 6-8 franchises that can go after nearly any FA they choose to.

We're the Cardinals, Mariners, Braves, Blue Jays, Brewers or Padres...optimistically.

Edited November 18, 2021 by caulfield12

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

This is just stupid.  The Sox will add a $100M contract sooner rather than later.  I’m not optimistic they’ll ever add a $300M contract with Jerry as owner, but $100M is a low barrier to cross.  Hell, there is a legit chance Giolito agrees to an extension that surpasses that amount this ofxseason.

Yep, I agree that they're going to get into 9 figures sooner than later, but I don't think anything more than $150M is reasonable to expect at this time. 

Guys like Semien, Seager, and Correa are well out of the Sox price range. I think Semien will get a deal around $200M and the other two, well above, if not reaching $300M. 

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, Tnetennba said:

If I remember correctly they made a pitch to Harper at the Advocate Center early in FA, but I don't recall if they ever made a serious offer.  And after Machado signed there was some word of a pivot to Harper but it always felt way too late.

That’s exactly how I remember it.

[Jack Parkman]

2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

The White Sox will never go over their predetermined amount, unless it's for in-house guys or someone like Robert.

You avoid bad deals like Alex Gordon, but it also leaves you on the outside looking in more often than not.

A seat at the table.

And realistically, we're not one of those Top 6-8 franchises that can go after nearly any FA they choose to.

We're the Cardinals, Mariners, Braves, Brewers or Padres...optimistically.

We all accept that, that's why we're still fans of the team. 

Even if Conforto costs 5/125 I still think that's realistic for the Sox. 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said:

I see them as separate data points that support the argument. I still don't believe that they ever had any intention of signing Machado and that they always did just enough to stay relevant before finally bowing out. 

Why would they do this?  I moved to god forsaken Nashville because they failed to land him!  What did they accomplish by pretending to sign him and lead us on?

[Jack Parkman]

2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Why would they do this?  I moved to god forsaken Nashville because they failed to land him!  What did they accomplish by pretending to sign him and lead us on?

They got the fans and the national media to talk about them all winter, Free publicity, and trying to change the narrative around being cheap with FA while still being cheap with FA. 

Jerry does spend, he just spreads it around among a bunch of players rather than concentrating it on one guy, and he doesn't like long-term commitments. 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[southsider2k5]

22 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I know exactly what that word means and I am using it exactly as intended. 

No one is wasting months of resources on something this dumb. It's one thing to "make an offer".

It is quite another to spend months negotiating so that they can purposefully fail in order to somehow declare victory.  Because somehow Sox management got the idea that people in February would say "HOLY SHIT, we finished 2nd in the Machado bidding! I am going to buy some season tickets now.  I mean if they had finished 3rd in the Machado bidding, no way, but second?  They must be serious!"

And they played this game with Machado and his agent for four months, knowing if they found out it could damage future dealings with both the agent and other players,  but it was worth it, because 2nd generates ticket sales.

I want to know who went out and bought tickets after the Machado failure.

Now I say this knowing the gravity of this statement, but this might be your most ridiculous argument on Soxtalk so far.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said:

Yes. You're naive. I also think that they're not the only team that does it. 

I don't think it's as ridiculous of a concept as you do. 

Jack, please don’t take this the wrong way, but you’ve clearly never had a normal corporate job.  No company in their right mind thinks leading on their customers in a good business strategy.  Like I’d be fired at my job on the spot if I proposed something so dumb.

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Jack, please don’t take this the wrong way, but you’ve clearly never had a normal corporate job.  No company in their right mind thinks leading on their customers in a good business strategy.  Like I’d be fired at my job on the spot if I proposed something so dumb.

Sports isn't a normal business. 

But yeah, You guys know I'm disabled and do gig work so it's fine. I admit ignorance on the corporate world front. 

[Jack Parkman]

8 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

No one is wasting months of resources on something this dumb. It's one thing to "make an offer".

It is quite another to spend months negotiating so that they can purposefully fail in order to somehow declare victory.  Because somehow Sox management got the idea that people in February would say "HOLY SHIT, we finished 2nd in the Machado bidding! I am going to buy some season tickets now.  I mean if they had finished 3rd in the Machado bidding, no way, but second?  They must be serious!"

And they played this game with Machado and his agent for four months, knowing if they found out it could damage future dealings with both the agent and other players,  but it was worth it, because 2nd generates ticket sales.

I want to know who went out and bought tickets after the Machado failure.

Now I say this knowing the gravity of this statement, but this might be your most ridiculous argument on Soxtalk so far.

The Sox got tons of publicity that winter on Twitter, MLBN, ESPN, Sportsblab radio and elsewhere. You don't think that has value? 

As a matter of fact, I think that they actually help the agent drive up the price of their client to other teams that are actually interested in the player. In that case, they're doing the agent and player a favor. 

It's literally free publicity, and quite possibly gaining brownie points with an agent for players in which they're actually interested. 

I actually don't think they wasted much time on it at all, because they were never serious to begin with. They were literally doing Machado and his agent a favor. 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[Chicago White Sox]

We need a rumor ASAP to save this thread!

[southsider2k5]

4 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

The Sox got tons of publicity that winter on Twitter, MLBN, ESPN, Sportsblab radio and elsewhere? You don't think that has value? 

As a matter of fact, I think that they actually help the agent drive up the price of their client to other teams that are actually interested in the player. In that case, they're doing the agent and player a favor. 

It's literally free publicity, and quite possibly gaining brownie points with an agent for players in which they're actually interested. 

Who is buying tickets based on negotiations with a player?  

What would have happened if Machado said yes?

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

Who is buying tickets based on negotiations with a player?  

What would have happened if Machado said yes?

They're buying tickets because they think the Sox will spend in the future. 

They didn't have to worry about that, because there was always a better offer on the table. I think that Lozano and Machado knew that the Sox offer was fake and to help with their negotiations. 

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

They're buying tickets because they think the Sox will spend in the future. 

They didn't have to worry about that, because there was always a better offer on the table. I think that Lozano and Machado knew that the Sox offer was fake and to help with their negotiations. 

It was a kickback scandal...for Jay and Alonso.  That wasn't the greatest look, when all they needed to do was guarantee those last two years if they really wanted him.  And they were fortunate to get Moncada's 2019 season right after that miss.

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

They're buying tickets because they think the Sox will spend in the future. 

They didn't have to worry about that, because there was always a better offer on the table. I think that Lozano and Machado knew that the Sox offer was fake and to help with their negotiations. 

No Sox fan does this. They are some of the biggest bandwagon fans around. They don't show up until the winning starts.  This has been true for decades. No rumor of a negotiation is going to move Sox fans to jump in. After a signing?  Maybe, depending on how big.  I literally didn't see a single person who bought anything because the MIGHT get Machado.

The second part is literally not true.

[Sarava]

14 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Jack, please don’t take this the wrong way, but you’ve clearly never had a normal corporate job.  No company in their right mind thinks leading on their customers in a good business strategy.  Like I’d be fired at my job on the spot if I proposed something so dumb.

I hate to kind of, sort of agree with Jack here. But really - the Sox hard offer of $250 mil + a bunch of incentive money that was unlikely to ever be achieved, just wasn't an offer that was going to get Manny signed. At the end of the day, I felt like the Sox pursuit of him was a bunch of hot air.

And all the while, Rick Hahn kept spewing crap about the Sox having a seat at the table, as if us fans were supposed to feel good about that. It was weird.

[Balta1701]

8 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Who is buying tickets based on negotiations with a player?  

 

Just now, southsider2k5 said:

No Sox fan does this. They are some of the biggest bandwagon fans around. They don't show up until the winning starts.  This has been true for decades. No rumor of a negotiation is going to move Sox fans to jump in. After a signing?  Maybe, depending on how big.  I literally didn't see a single person who bought anything because the MIGHT get Machado.

The second part is literally not true.

Worth noting that the White Sox had a boost of 800 tickets/game in 2019 over 2018, also beating 2017s ticket sales?

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

 

Worth noting that the White Sox had a boost of 800 tickets/game in 2019 over 2018, also beating 2017s ticket sales?

And this was because they talked to Machado for months?  Lol, you can't seriously think Sox fans are that dumb.

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

 

Worth noting that the White Sox had a boost of 800 tickets/game in 2019 over 2018, also beating 2017s ticket sales?

Wouldn't we see the same trends in Royals or Astros t.v. ratings and season ticket uptick at the same point in their rebuilds?

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

And this was because they talked to Machado for months?  Lol, you can't seriously think Sox fans are that dumb.

Yeah, I do think that was largely because of all the press they got in the offseason. Like you said, Sox fans don't turn out unless the winning is starting, and they certainly weren't winning anything that year, but they got a big boost of coverage that offseason that translated to a trickle of new fans.