ALDS Game 2 - Chicago @ Houston - 1:07pm CDT

[hankchifan]

4 hours ago, NWINFan said:

Excluding 2005, the Sox are 5-17 in the post season since divisional play began. Except for 2020 in a three-game series, the Sox have never pushed a series to the maximum length. History says they won't do it this time. 0-6 in Houston. There is no excuse for that. This is just an embarrassment.

Sox managers during this period such as Ventura, Ricky and TLR were nothing to write home about either.

[caulfield12]

Have Stone or Benetti said anything on social media?  Kasper?

 

Northsiders are undoubtedly enjoying the comeuppance Kimbrel's experiencing after that roller coaster they were on with him during his ill-fated contract.

just not quite as fun as it used to be to hate the Cubs or vice-versa for Sox fans, it's almost like losing a tradition to reason to care about random NL games on t.v.

[Stinky Stanky]

6 hours ago, chetkincaid said:

 

 

[caulfield12]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/08/sport/jim-kaat-apology-slavery-remark-mlb-spt/index.html

[greg775]

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by greg775

[South Side Hit Men]

One of the primary reasons MLB is dying, is because it is owned, operated and presented by people who should be retired and at home trying to figure out how to work a remote control decades earlier. Then you Costas (70 before 2022 Opening Day, if it happens) rambling about the Civil War.

So glad I had Len and DJ on.

 

[hankchifan]

6 hours ago, SCCWS said:

As you say, we can't get rid of the whole team but Hahn assembled the whole team not TLR. So in the private sector Hahn would have been let go and a new GM hired.  Now if the new GM has the final say on a manager, which Hahn didn't have, them maybe Hahn's replacement would get rid of TLR. 

Good point.  However, TLR in game decisions hurt the team more than Hahn sitting on a desk. 

[hankchifan]

6 hours ago, FoxForce2 said:

Do you really think JR and KW are going to go for something like that?
p.s. Aren't the Sox in the 'private sector'?

By private sector I meant a publicly held company.  My bad.  Sox are a family business run by JR who does not respond to Wall Street or many shareholders. But is also in the private sector, you are right.

[hankchifan]

10 hours ago, Slewpy said:

You're crazy.  Lucas set this up in the fifth.  Team gave you the lead and you give some free bases. SMH  The Tony haters are wrong

Proof is in the pudding. We are not haters, our criticism of TLR is based on facts and results..  Giolito was left too long by TLR.  TLRdid not bring in Kopech with a 2 run lead.  TLR brought Crochet in instead after throwing 26 pitches the day before, and having to face at least 3 hitters due to new rules, including righty Gurriel who drove in 2.  TLR moved Leury, a terrible outfield defender, to RF taking Engel out late in a tied game. Please explain why are we wrong on TLR moves this game.  In my view TLR cost us this game. His moves did not work out.

[Two-Gun Pete]

9 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

Tony fucked up plenty, especially with Crochet, but it wasn’t his fault Gio walked so many and Bummer and Kimbrel sucked.

Well, it kinda was his fault:

1. He SHOULD have had more urgency in pulling Giolito in a crucial game. By pulling Giolito earlier, he doesn't walk as many. FFS, at the very fucking least, having someone up and warmed to START the 5th, he should have pulled Giolito BEFORE the second walk that inning.

2. He could/SHOULD have used Kopech for multiple in a game that was a MUST WIN, instead of using Bummer and Kimbrel. 

3. He could/SHOULD like, actually fucking learn how to align the defense better, so that grounders hit up the middle could be caught.

4. He could/SHOULD have tried Hendriks in non-save situations in the regular season, rather than letting Kimbrel fail all fucking season, and then blame his unfamiliarity with the role, after a PLAYOFF loss.

5. He could/SHOULD understand that its not fucking 1985 anymore, and use your fucking closer in the 5th or 7th. Ya know, like MODERN baseball managers do nowadays.

Instead, the fucking imbecile pitched a youngster in back-to-back games, let Kimbrel continue to struggle in a non-save situation, let Kopech continue to ride pine, and then squander your closer in a blowout.

 

So yes, the players needed to play better. But the manager has to do a better job to put them into position to succeed. OR, to properly intervene when they're not playing well.

[Dick Allen]

1 hour ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Well, it kinda was his fault:

1. He SHOULD have had more urgency in pulling Giolito in a crucial game. By pulling Giolito earlier, he doesn't walk as many. FFS, at the very fucking least, having someone up and warmed to START the 5th, he should have pulled Giolito BEFORE the second walk that inning.

2. He could/SHOULD have used Kopech for multiple in a game that was a MUST WIN, instead of using Bummer and Kimbrel. 

3. He could/SHOULD like, actually fucking learn how to align the defense better, so that grounders hit up the middle could be caught.

4. He could/SHOULD have tried Hendriks in non-save situations in the regular season, rather than letting Kimbrel fail all fucking season, and then blame his unfamiliarity with the role, after a PLAYOFF loss.

5. He could/SHOULD understand that its not fucking 1985 anymore, and use your fucking closer in the 5th or 7th. Ya know, like MODERN baseball managers do nowadays.

Instead, the fucking imbecile pitched a youngster in back-to-back games, let Kimbrel continue to struggle in a non-save situation, let Kopech continue to ride pine, and then squander your closer in a blowout.

 

So yes, the players needed to play better. But the manager has to do a better job to put them into position to succeed. OR, to properly intervene when they're not playing well.

I do get a kick out of people who think modern closers should pitch the 5th or 7th innings, which I have not seen once, but also think that a closer like Kimbrel needs to pitch the 9th only. Do you have any examples of established closers pitching the 5th inning?

Edited October 9, 2021 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

22 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

I do get a kick out of people who think modern closers should pitch the 5th or 7th innings, which I have not seen once, but also think that a closer like Kimbrel needs to pitch the 9th only. Do you have any examples of established closers pitching the 5th inning?

I can remember one pitching the 8th inning. Friday October 8. Wasn’t really needed but Dusty Baker wanted to step on his opponents throat to make sure they were out.

[Two-Gun Pete]

32 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

I do get a kick out of people who think modern closers should pitch the 5th or 7th innings, which I have not seen once, but also think that a closer like Kimbrel needs to pitch the 9th only. Do you have any examples of established closers pitching the 5th inning?

There's this bum named Hader who's done it several times. But yeah, we've never ever seen that. Modern bullpen management dictates that you use your "more gooder" pitchers in game/series-crucial situations, not pitch a kid on a back-to-back scenario. 

Insofar as Kimbrel, if he's so mentally weak that he can't pitch apart from closing, well when you've squandered a decade of control of two players to get him? Maybe you've got to adjust in HIS case.

Edited October 9, 2021 by Two-Gun Pete

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

There's this bum named Hader who's done it several times. But yeah, we've never ever seen that.

Insofar as Kimbrel, if he's so mentally weak that he can't pitch apart from closing, well when you've squandered a decade of control of two players to get him? Maybe you've got to adjust in HIS case.

Fwiw, I see. I reason to think that pitching the 9th would somehow solve Kimbrel’s problems, so there’s plenty of blame to go around for that. 

[Two-Gun Pete]

Just now, Balta1701 said:

Fwiw, I see. I reason to think that pitching the 9th would somehow solve Kimbrel’s problems, so there’s plenty of blame to go around for that. 

And thats fair:

We don't know FOR CERTAIN that adjusting his role would have solved his issues. But he's been here since the TDL (late July), so they could have at least TRIED something different to see if it would have worked. I mean, it's been 10 fucking weeks from then til now. Couldn't they have at least given it a shot BEFORE now?

Instead, we've gotten to live the definition of insanity, where alkie Tony has tried the same thing over and over, but expected different results.

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

And thats fair:

We don't know FOR CERTAIN that adjusting his role would have solved his issues. But he's been here since the TDL (late July), so they could have at least TRIED something different to see if it would have worked. I mean, it's been 10 fucking weeks from then til now. Couldn't they have at least given it a shot BEFORE now?

Instead, we've gotten to live the definition of insanity, where alkie Tony has tried the same thing over and over, but expected different results.

And while they never tried it, LaRussa still used that as an excuse yesterday, which is infuriating but expected since it was shifting blame away from him.

[Dick Allen]

18 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

There's this bum named Hader who's done it several times. But yeah, we've never ever seen that. Modern bullpen management dictates that you use your "more gooder" pitchers in game/series-crucial situations, not pitch a kid on a back-to-back scenario. 

Insofar as Kimbrel, if he's so mentally weak that he can't pitch apart from closing, well when you've squandered a decade of control of two players to get him? Maybe you've got to adjust in HIS case.

Here’s his game logs. Never pitched the 5th. Pitched the 7th twice. One was a 7 inning game, and one was a blowout loss to get him some work.

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=haderjo01&t=p&year=2021

[caulfield12]

6 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

And while they never tried it, LaRussa still used that as an excuse yesterday, which is infuriating but expected since it was shifting blame away from him.

Otoh, it plays against the constant trope that LaRussa is now calling the shots on personnel moves…or TLR asked for Kimbrel specifically only to realize later he wasn’t the same guy outside of the closer’s role and is now attempting to shift the blame to Hahn when it backfired.

[Balta1701]

8 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Otoh, it plays against the constant trope that LaRussa is now calling the shots on personnel moves…or TLR asked for Kimbrel specifically only to realize later he wasn’t the same guy outside of the closer’s role and is now attempting to shift the blame to Hahn when it backfired.

An expensive veteran who they didn’t scout well enough and who therefore implodes as soon as he gets to the White Sox? That sounds like the Rick and Kenny show to me.

[Two-Gun Pete]

33 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Here’s his game logs. Never pitched the 5th. Pitched the 7th twice. One was a 7 inning game, and one was a blowout loss to get him some work.

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=haderjo01&t=p&year=2021

Whelp, that proves it, amirite? I mean, there's such a MASSIVE gulf in difference between a closer pitching in a non-save situation in the 5th, vs pitching in a non-save situation in the 7th. I mean, you're right: TLR was absolutely correct to pitch Crochet back-to-back, instead of using his better pitchers in a game that this team ABSOLUTELY needed to win. 

 

Your fealty and loyalty to the hall of fame baseball person is noted.

[Dick Allen]

3 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Whelp, that proves it, amirite? I mean, there's such a MASSIVE gulf in difference between a closer pitching in a non-save situation in the 5th, vs pitching in a non-save situation in the 7th. I mean, you're right: TLR was absolutely correct to pitch Crochet back-to-back, instead of using his better pitchers in a game that this team ABSOLUTELY needed to win. 

 

Your fealty and loyalty to the hall of fame baseball person is noted.

All I asked was that you show me who uses closers in the 5th and 7th innings as you said it is what is done in the modern game. You said Hader does it. He doesn't. Now I am a TLR loyalist? Read the thread. No one has commented more about Crochet back to back than me. Of courseI also don't think Kimbrels problems are solved by giving him the 9th. He was not exactly better there since coming over. Granted small sample. 

[Two-Gun Pete]

Just now, Dick Allen said:

All I asked was that you show me who uses closers in the 5th and 7th innings as you said it is what is done in the modern game. You said Hader does it. He doesn't. Now I am a TLR loyalist? Read the thread. No one has commented more about Crochet back to back than me. Of courseI also don't think Kimbrels problems are solved by giving him the 9th. He was not exactly better there since coming over. Granted small sample. 

And Hader has pitched in the 7th. Is it THAT different for a closer to pitch in the 5th? They're both non-save situations that the better managers deploy their "more gooder" RPs/closers in. Dusty Baker used his closer in a non-save situation just yesterday. To be fair, 5 years ago, alleged wifebeater Chapman was used in non-save situations, so much so that he ran out of gas by the end of the playoffs. This ain't new baseball management theory.

And, it ain't that hard to do: Use your "more gooder" RPs in game/series-crucial situations. The "more gooder" managers already do. That you're defending TLR on the basis of minutia is hilarious.

[Dick Allen]

7 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

And Hader has pitched in the 7th. Is it THAT different for a closer to pitch in the 5th? They're both non-save situations that the better managers deploy their "more gooder" RPs/closers in. Dusty Baker used his closer in a non-save situation just yesterday. To be fair, 5 years ago, alleged wifebeater Chapman was used in non-save situations, so much so that he ran out of gas by the end of the playoffs. This ain't new baseball management theory.

And, it ain't that hard to do: Use your "more gooder" RPs in game/series-crucial situations. The "more gooder" managers already do. That you're defending TLR on the basis of minutia is hilarious.

You have no examples of managers using closers in non save crucial situations. The one that does is LaRussa with Kimbrel, and he is ripped for it.

[Two-Gun Pete]

Just now, Dick Allen said:

You have no examples of managers using closers in non save crucial situations. The one that does is LaRussa with Kimbrel, and he is ripped for it.

Who's the manager of Milwaukee again? You yourself have said that Hader pitched in the 7th, which is a non-save situation.

Who was the manager of the scrubs in 2016? Alleged wifebeater Chapman pitched in plenty of non-save situations.

 

To be fair to Kimbrel, perhaps those guys are more mentally tough than him, and thus, are capable in ways that he is not. Likewise, Hendriks has shown a history of being able to pitch in non-save situations, where Kimbrel has not, over the course of their careers.

 

I like you, and I generally respect your views here. But now, you're just reaching for God knows why.

[Dick Allen]

10 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Who's the manager of Milwaukee again? You yourself have said that Hader pitched in the 7th, which is a non-save situation.

Who was the manager of the scrubs in 2016? Alleged wifebeater Chapman pitched in plenty of non-save situations.

 

To be fair to Kimbrel, perhaps those guys are more mentally tough than him, and thus, are capable in ways that he is not. Likewise, Hendriks has shown a history of being able to pitch in non-save situations, where Kimbrel has not, over the course of their careers.

 

I like you, and I generally respect your views here. But now, you're just reaching for God knows why.

He pitched twice in the 7th inning. One was a save situation. It was a DH. A 7 inning game. The other was a non crucial down by 10 last game of the season needs some work appearance. Not what you are advertising.