flavum Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 On 10/13/2021 at 2:42 PM, Balta1701 said: But the games were still played without him though right? Expand I guess. But so was the entire 2019 season. I’m being nitpicky, but he was at the alt site for the first week last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 On 10/13/2021 at 2:42 PM, Chi Town Sox said: Similar has been said directly from the mouth of a Brewers scout that I know. I remember outside of his 2 strike prowess, nothing but complaints about Madrigal about his defense, his range, his base running, his lack of power, etc. up and down this board. The trade didn't work out, it would be nice to move on. Kimbrel is one reason the Sox didn't win this series but it isn't the main reason. Nick Madrigal is on the Cubs now. Some on here post about him like He is Fernando Tatis. Move on. Expand His defense and base running did improve during this season compared to last year and his awful start. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 (edited) On 10/13/2021 at 2:42 PM, Chi Town Sox said: Similar has been said directly from the mouth of a Brewers scout that I know. I remember outside of his 2 strike prowess, nothing but complaints about Madrigal about his defense, his range, his base running, his lack of power, etc. up and down this board. The trade didn't work out, it would be nice to move on. Kimbrel is one reason the Sox didn't win this series but it isn't the main reason. Nick Madrigal is on the Cubs now. Some on here post about him like He is Fernando Tatis. Move on. Expand Kimbrel could have been the guy the Sox thought they were getting, and the Sox still wouldn't have won this series. Their pitching was horrific. Their offense except for Sunday night, the same. Their defense, horrible. Maybe it wakes some people in the organization up and they realize that while they are the class of the AL Central, there is a lot of work to be done. Edited October 13, 2021 by Dick Allen 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chetkincaid Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 On 10/13/2021 at 1:57 PM, BrittBurnsFan said: I know Stone is a mouthpiece for the organization but he went out and praised this trade as much as anyone could praise it! And while doing so...it seemed he was a bit critical of Madrigal. I recall him using phrases like "Madrigal is done developing, low ceiling, defense had been disappointing, and fragile". Obviously the Cubs brass didn't view Madrigal that way but I do remember thinking that Stone really went after Madrigal in his overwhelming praise of the trade! Expand I remember Stone trashing Madrigal on his way out the door and I couldn’t help but think he was only doing that to justify the trade. Stone is knowledgeable but he’s kind of a bag. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chi Town Sox Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 On 10/13/2021 at 2:45 PM, Balta1701 said: His defense and base running did improve during this season compared to last year and his awful start. Expand He still showed a negative dWar this year in his time. I never thought anybody would be so angry about a guy on pace for 6 homers and 60 rbi's. Hahn needs to go out and find a proper replacement since Hernandez did not work out, that's it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wegner Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 On 10/13/2021 at 2:46 PM, chetkincaid said: I remember Stone trashing Madrigal on his way out the door and I couldn’t help but think he was only doing that to justify the trade. Stone is knowledgeable but he’s kind of a bag. Expand I wonder what he'll say about Kimbrel when he's gone...via trade or decline of the option. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reiks12 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 On 10/13/2021 at 2:46 PM, Dick Allen said: Kimbrel could have been the guy the Sox thought they were getting, and the Sox still wouldn't have won this series. Their pitching was horrific. Their offense except for Sunday night, the same. Their defense, horrible. Maybe it wakes some people in the organization up and they realize that while they are the class of the AL Central, there is a lot of work to be done. Expand I get we needed bullpen help, Tepera was a tremendous addition, but if they were going to trade Madrigal, Pilkington, and Heuer I wish it was for a player that had more impact than a closer/setup man. Kimbrel got 1 out. What kind of RF, 2B, or SP could we have gotten for a package of the 3? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 Steve Stone says guys suck then he says the same guys are awesome a few days later. He isn't going to rock the boat too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrittBurnsFan Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 On 10/13/2021 at 2:46 PM, chetkincaid said: I remember Stone trashing Madrigal on his way out the door and I couldn’t help but think he was only doing that to justify the trade. Stone is knowledgeable but he’s kind of a bag. Expand Yeah...Stone has an ego for sure...but he is usually strong in his assessments. I also recall him saying Madrigal was "over"-drafted meaning he was taken too high. That is a shot at the organization...right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 On 10/13/2021 at 2:40 PM, The Kids Can Play said: You are missing the point. The Sox were patient with Rodon. Before the Sox DFA'd him last year, they hung with him for 6 years. What the Sox did to try and find starters is another thing. The fact is they hung in with Rodon for 6 years. Expand They weren't patient with him. He was out with surgery for two years, so they didn't really have a choice. They DFA'd him when they did. They replaced him in the rotation multiple different times over those 6-7 years. Exactly like Madrigal. I would imagine if a situation came up where the Sox thought they could benefit by including Rodon in a deal during that time, they would have done it, but don't lose sight of the fact that the team was in talent accumulation mode when Rodon was out, versus win now mode now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 On 10/13/2021 at 2:52 PM, reiks12 said: I get we needed bullpen help, Tepera was a tremendous addition, but if they were going to trade Madrigal, Pilkington, and Heuer I wish it was for a player that had more impact than a closer/setup man. Kimbrel got 1 out. What kind of RF, 2B, or SP could we have gotten for a package of the 3? Expand Everyone is praising Tepera, but he missed a ton of time too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 On 10/13/2021 at 2:46 PM, Dick Allen said: Kimbrel could have been the guy the Sox thought they were getting, and the Sox still wouldn't have won this series. Their pitching was horrific. Their offense except for Sunday night, the same. Their defense, horrible. Maybe it wakes some people in the organization up and they realize that while they are the class of the AL Central, there is a lot of work to be done. Expand The number of pitchers who did their job in this series and are getting blamed for not being able to do things they should not have been asked to do is astonishing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrittBurnsFan Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 On 10/13/2021 at 2:51 PM, wegner said: I wonder what he'll say about Kimbrel when he's gone...via trade or decline of the option. Expand That is a good question...but certainly Stone will say he didn't perform up to the levels that were expected when he was acquired. Why that didn't happen would also be an interesting take from Stone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 On 10/13/2021 at 2:52 PM, reiks12 said: I get we needed bullpen help, Tepera was a tremendous addition, but if they were going to trade Madrigal, Pilkington, and Heuer I wish it was for a player that had more impact than a closer/setup man. Kimbrel got 1 out. What kind of RF, 2B, or SP could we have gotten for a package of the 3? Expand If Kimbrel had been who he was supposed to be, they come into that series in Chicago. As it was, Game 2 partially turned on Kimbrel, along with LaRussa (5th inning), LaRussa (Crochet back to back nights), LaRussa (pinch hitting Hernandez and moving Leury to RF), and LaRussa (defensive positioning, esp when Bummer came in). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buehrle>Wood Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 On 10/13/2021 at 2:53 PM, Balta1701 said: The number of pitchers who did their job in this series and are getting blamed for not being able to do things they should not have been asked to do is astonishing. Expand I mean starters are supposed to start. We essentially had the worst starting pitching performance in baseball history. That throws everyone else for a loop too. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wegner Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 On 10/13/2021 at 2:56 PM, Balta1701 said: If Kimbrel had been who he was supposed to be, they come into that series in Chicago. As it was, Game 2 partially turned on Kimbrel, along with LaRussa (5th inning), LaRussa (Crochet back to back nights), LaRussa (pinch hitting Hernandez and moving Leury to RF), and LaRussa (defensive positioning, esp when Bummer came in). Expand WTF was that all about anyway. Shouldn't someone's head roll in the offseason over that awful positioning all series long? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wegner Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 On 10/13/2021 at 2:59 PM, Buehrle>Wood said: I mean starters are supposed to start. We essentially had the worst starting pitching performance in baseball history. That throws everyone else for a loop too. Expand From what many of us felt was the strength of this team no so long ago. Very frustrating. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kids Can Play Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 On 10/13/2021 at 2:53 PM, southsider2k5 said: They weren't patient with him. He was out with surgery for two years, so they didn't really have a choice. They DFA'd him when they did. They replaced him in the rotation multiple different times over those 6-7 years. Exactly like Madrigal. I would imagine if a situation came up where the Sox thought they could benefit by including Rodon in a deal during that time, they would have done it, but don't lose sight of the fact that the team was in talent accumulation mode when Rodon was out, versus win now mode now. Expand It appears there will always be this division on the Madrigal value in this forum. The reality is we never get anywhere when we debate Madrigal. I think many of us here are like me, feel the Kimbrel trade was dumb and then there are many others like you, who think the trade was awesome and Madrigal was garbage. I guess in the end we will have agree to disagree. The fact is you will never convince me that getting rid of Madrigal was smart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 On 10/13/2021 at 2:59 PM, wegner said: WTF was that all about anyway. Shouldn't someone's head roll in the offseason over that awful positioning all series long? Expand That was all about Tony LaRussa not believing in it. ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wegner Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 On 10/13/2021 at 3:04 PM, Balta1701 said: That was all about Tony LaRussa not believing in it. ? Expand I'm fine with him being the fall guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 On 10/13/2021 at 2:59 PM, Buehrle>Wood said: I mean starters are supposed to start. We essentially had the worst starting pitching performance in baseball history. That throws everyone else for a loop too. Expand Giolito and Rodon did their jobs and gave you everything they could. I literally wrote Friday morning that if Giolito gives you 4 innings and then gives up the lead, it’s on the manager not on him. That is exactly how that game went. Lynn should not have been asked to pitch in Houston. That one I had back in August. I should not be this much better at predicting how games will go than guys paid 7 figures. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 On 10/13/2021 at 3:02 PM, The Kids Can Play said: It appears there will always be this division on the Madrigal value in this forum. The reality is we never get anywhere when we debate Madrigal. I think many of us here are like me, feel the Kimbrel trade was dumb and then there are many others like you, who think the trade was awesome and Madrigal was garbage. I guess in the end we will have agree to disagree. The fact is you will never convince me that getting rid of Madrigal was smart. Expand None of that was actually said, but OK, I can at least agree with the last part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kids Can Play Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 On 10/13/2021 at 3:14 PM, southsider2k5 said: None of that was actually said, but OK, I can at least agree with the last part. Expand Ok fair enough, my bad as maybe I paraphrased some words. but the bottom line is, you like many others here, which is fine, didn't see Madrigal as a good future value due to his injuries. Yet I believe there are many of us that feel he would have been good and these injuries would have been behind him. Keep in mind, Madrigal wouldn't be the first player in MLB history to start out slowly due to injures and then have a long successful career because he eventually learned how to proactively train correctly and play smarter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Hit Men Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 On 10/13/2021 at 2:46 PM, chetkincaid said: I remember Stone trashing Madrigal on his way out the door and I couldn’t help but think he was only doing that to justify the trade. Stone is knowledgeable but he’s kind of a bag. Expand Yes, but multiple reports out of Sox world indicate Madrigal was a d bag in the clubhouse. part of the calculus of moving him. Addition by subtraction, "3,000 hits" notwithstanding. On 10/13/2021 at 2:59 PM, wegner said: WTF was that all about anyway. Shouldn't someone's head roll in the offseason over that awful positioning all series long? Expand I believe Dave Duncan's son is primarily responsible for the statistics and defensive alignment "strategery" employed by La Russa all season. He ain't going anywhere until Tony leaves the organization. Streets and Sans has less cronyism than this organization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 On 10/13/2021 at 3:28 PM, The Kids Can Play said: Ok fair enough, my bad as maybe I paraphrased some words. but the bottom line is, you like many others here, which is fine, didn't see Madrigal as a good future value due to his injuries. Yet I believe there are many of us that feel he would have been good and these injuries would have been behind him. Keep in mind, Madrigal wouldn't be the first player in MLB history to start out slowly due to injures and then have a long successful career because he eventually learned how to proactively train correctly and play smarter. Expand He also would be the much rarer guy who isn't exactly what he has shown us for an injury history going back to college. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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