Madrigal

[Buehrle>Wood]

30 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Giolito and Rodon did their jobs and gave you everything they could. I literally wrote Friday morning that if Giolito gives you 4 innings and then gives up the lead, it’s on the manager not on him. That is exactly how that game went.

Lynn should not have been asked to pitch in Houston. That one I had back in August. I should not be this much better at predicting how games will go than guys paid 7 figures.

So your idea was to start Dylan Cease in Houston? And you think that would have been better? Giolito should also be able to go more than 4 innings. It was a bad performance and embarrassing that his was the "best".

[The Kids Can Play]

9 minutes ago, Buehrle>Wood said:

So your idea was to start Dylan Cease in Houston? And you think that would have been better? Giolito should also be able to go more than 4 innings. It was a bad performance and embarrassing that his was the "best".

Giolito could go more than 4 innings. Unfortunately his loser manager decided to not have faith in him to get out of the jam. We were leading 4-2 with one out and with runners on first and second. I can recall countless times this season where Giolito got out of jams like that because he is capable of striking out two more men. TLR was always too early to pull starters, beside that fact he was a trainwreck handling the bullpen. 

[SCCWS]

52 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

It appears there will always be this division on the Madrigal value in this forum. The reality is we never get anywhere when we debate Madrigal. I think many of us here are like me, feel the Kimbrel trade was dumb and then there are many others like you, who think the trade was awesome and Madrigal was garbage. I guess in the end we will have agree to disagree. The fact is you will never convince me that getting rid of Madrigal was smart. 

Never say never. If Madrigal ends up being a utility guy for Cubs that should convince you. If Kimbrel is a stud reliever for Sox next year and leads us to World Series win that should convince you.  If Kimbrel implodes next year and Madrigal has a solid year w Cubs  you will be correct the trade was dumb. 

[SCCWS]

5 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Giolito could go more than 4 innings. Unfortunately his loser manager decided to not have faith in him to get out of the jam. We were leading 4-2 with one out and with runners on first and second. I can recall countless times this season where Giolito got out of jams like that because he is capable of striking out two more men. TLR was always too early to pull starters, beside that fact he was a trainwreck handling the bullpen. 

I think you missed the key point. When Moncada slid  into the stands on the foul pop , there was an extended delay. When play resumed , Gio seemed to  struggle and TLR  pulled him. After losing game 1, a quick hook was needed in Game 2. If they had won Game 1 , maybe you go longer w Gio in 2.  

[The Kids Can Play]

1 minute ago, SCCWS said:

Never say never. If Madrigal ends up being a utility guy for Cubs that should convince you. If Kimbrel is a stud reliever for Sox next year and leads us to World Series win that should convince you.  If Kimbrel implodes next year and Madrigal has a solid year w Cubs  you will be correct the trade was dumb. 

No kidding and thanks for all the scenarios. However that was not my point. I would have never traded Madrigal. If he was a bust or just a average utility player, then so be it. My point is the Sox should have been in control of that outcome on their watch and not the Cubs. We invested a first round pick, 4th overall to get him. A MLB franchise typically does not throw away their high draft pick assets after only 2.5 years. The smart and winning clubs don't do that, until they know they did everything possible to get the maximum out of that player. 

A team can work on helping a player get into better condition and more flexible to avoid injuries. They can also help that player with his fundamentals like fielding. However, what they can't do is teach a player to have that rare and amazing hand eye coordination that Madrigal had to make contact and get hits. 

[Balta1701]

51 minutes ago, Buehrle>Wood said:

So your idea was to start Dylan Cease in Houston? And you think that would have been better? Giolito should also be able to go more than 4 innings. It was a bad performance and embarrassing that his was the "best".

Personally I would have first actually cared about home field advantage, second I I would have gone Giolito and then Rodon in game 2 if at all humanly possible - game 2 was coming off a long break so the bullpen should have been the most able to cover innings there. Cease pitching game 2 would have been my 3rd option - I preferred him at the Rate, but we saw that didn’t go well. Lynn pitching in Houston was the absolute worst option, you were better off starting Keuchel as it was a white flag either way.

[southsider2k5]

8 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Personally I would have first actually cared about home field advantage, second I I would have gone Giolito and then Rodon in game 2 if at all humanly possible - game 2 was coming off a long break so the bullpen should have been the most able to cover innings there. Cease pitching game 2 would have been my 3rd option - I preferred him at the Rate, but we saw that didn’t go well. Lynn pitching in Houston was the absolute worst option, you were better off starting Keuchel as it was a white flag either way.

I am curious, who was the last team to bench a TOR starter against a team in the playoffs because they didn't match up well during the regular season?

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I am curious, who was the last team to bench a TOR starter against a team in the playoffs because they didn't match up well during the regular season?

Bench ≠ start in a home game.

[southsider2k5]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Bench ≠ start in a home game.

So no?

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

So no?

So which starter are you referring to who was benched, Keuchel or Greinke?

[SCCWS]

8 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

No kidding and thanks for all the scenarios. However that was not my point. I would have never traded Madrigal. If he was a bust or just a average utility player, then so be it. My point is the Sox should have been in control of that outcome on their watch and not the Cubs. We invested a first round pick, 4th overall to get him. A MLB franchise typically does not throw away their high draft pick assets after only 2.5 years. The smart and winning clubs don't do that, until they know they did everything possible to get the maximum out of that player. 

A team can work on helping a player get into better condition and more flexible to avoid injuries. They can also help that player with his fundamentals like fielding. However, what they can't do is teach a player to have that rare and amazing hand eye coordination that Madrigal had to make contact and get hits. 

But Hahn obviously decided Kimbrel was his number 1 deadline addition.  He must have felt the Sox had a chance to win it all. So If Kimbrel is his top target, who do the Cubs want as the headliner? We heard names like Madrigal, Crochet, Vaughn and  Kopech.  Of those 4, I would have chosen Madrigal or Crochet. Especially since he wouldn't have played in this year's playoffs, Madrigal probably over Crochet. But obviously the Cubs also influenced the pick. We will see if it was a mistake or not 

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, SCCWS said:

But Hahn obviously decided Kimbrel was his number 1 deadline addition.  He must have felt the Sox had a chance to win it all. So If Kimbrel is his top target, who do the Cubs want as the headliner? We heard names like Madrigal, Crochet, Vaughn and  Kopech.  Of those 4, I would have chosen Madrigal or Crochet. Especially since he wouldn't have played in this year's playoffs, Madrigal probably over Crochet. But obviously the Cubs also influenced the pick. We will see if it was a mistake or not 

The Cubs reportedly had a choice between Madrigal and Crochet and went with Madrigal.

[flavum]

Just now, Balta1701 said:

The Cubs reportedly had a choice between Madrigal and Crochet and went with Madrigal.

Apparently that was not an accurate report.

[southsider2k5]

34 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

So which starter are you referring to who was benched, Keuchel or Greinke?

Lance Lynn, obviously. 

[Buehrle>Wood]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Personally I would have first actually cared about home field advantage, second I I would have gone Giolito and then Rodon in game 2 if at all humanly possible - game 2 was coming off a long break so the bullpen should have been the most able to cover innings there. Cease pitching game 2 would have been my 3rd option - I preferred him at the Rate, but we saw that didn’t go well. Lynn pitching in Houston was the absolute worst option, you were better off starting Keuchel as it was a white flag either way.

It just seems like we're looking for excuses to not blame the historically bad pitching for being historically bad. Even if Jose Ruiz is your game 1 starter, you need a better performance than what we got. That said I think your solutions are somehow worse. Game 2 vs a lefty was the game we needed to win. Rodon wasn't ready and they've gone into enough detail there on his specific bullpen sessions to show that. Putting Dylan Cease there and his 16.20 ERA at Minute Maid, and his awful numbers vs >.500 team is not the answer for someone who is also bad at Minute Maid. But of course again, there no real answers here as historically bad pitching is historically bad.

[GradMc]

On 10/8/2021 at 5:29 PM, fathom said:

It’s like the Tatis trade.  I’m not mad they traded him as that was just bad luck him turning into a star. The real issue was trading for a washed-up Shields. Same is true about trading for a life long closer and trying to make him something he’s not.

Not only something he's not but clearly did not want to be. I'm so tired of Reinsdorf senior managers who think they know more than anyone else who in reality don't know jack. 

[Quin]

11 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Lance Lynn, obviously. 

I'm agreeing with Balta here. Gio and Rodon had pitched well against the Astros this year, Lynn hadn't. Minute Maid might as well be Lynn's House of Horrors.

Plus, it's not like Lynn is a clear cut ace - Gio, Rodon, and Lynn have all been All-Stars for the Sox, Rodon's getting Cy Young votes, and Gio was the best in the second half.

[southsider2k5]

9 hours ago, Quin said:

I'm agreeing with Balta here. Gio and Rodon had pitched well against the Astros this year, Lynn hadn't. Minute Maid might as well be Lynn's House of Horrors.

Plus, it's not like Lynn is a clear cut ace - Gio, Rodon, and Lynn have all been All-Stars for the Sox, Rodon's getting Cy Young votes, and Gio was the best in the second half.

I am still curious when it has happened.  Who benched their #1 starter in a series because of match ups?

[Bob Sacamano]

3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I am still curious when it has happened.  Who benched their #1 starter in a series because of match ups?

Never. Gotta play and pitch your best to win. It's not like you could just sit him out all series and wait for the ALCS.

[Balta1701]

5 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I am still curious when it has happened.  Who benched their #1 starter in a series because of match ups?

Since you aren’t dropping it, you were one of the chief campaigners for more rest going down the stretch, that Home Field Advantage was less important than that. This entire conversation was a key part of why I was saying it was important. Since they went with your “more rest” strategy, are you happy with the results?

[southsider2k5]

Just now, Balta1701 said:

Since you aren’t dropping it, you were one of the chief campaigners for more rest going down the stretch, that Home Field Advantage was less important than that. This entire conversation was a key part of why I was saying it was important. Since they went with your “more rest” strategy, are you happy with the results?

It failed, obviously, though not because of HFA. Neither rest, nor HFA were beating Tony vs the Astros. 

Now, back to the benching of the #1 starter.

[Balta1701]

5 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

It failed, obviously, though not because of HFA. Neither rest, nor HFA were beating Tony vs the Astros. 

Now, back to the benching of the #1 starter.

If LaRussa had lined up his pitching with Lynn and Cease in 3-4, and you complained about him being benched, people would think you had lost your mind.

And yeah, this series could have been closer than it was, the lack of HFA was just one of Tony’s screwups. But it was a massive one, given this team.

[southsider2k5]

8 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

If LaRussa had lined up his pitching with Lynn and Cease in 3-4, and you complained about him being benched, people would think you had lost your mind.

And yeah, this series could have been closer than it was, the lack of HFA was just one of Tony’s screwups. But it was a massive one, given this team.

All you have to do is isolate game 1 vs game 4 against the same pitcher in different parks to know how much difference it made. 

And considering Tony lined up his rotation to have Lynn first going into the post season, it would have been significant. 

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

All you have to do is isolate game 1 vs game 4 against the same pitcher in different parks to know how much difference it made. 

And considering Tony lined up his rotation to have Lynn first going into the post season, it would have been significant. 

Well, it’s a darn shame that those pitching schedules in September were handed down on stone tablets by a burning bush on top of a mountain in the Middle East, because otherwise we might have adjusted the September schedule to make things work once we decided we were going to go for the 3 seed.

[Quin]

33 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I am still curious when it has happened.  Who benched their #1 starter in a series because of match ups?

Because you decided to just ignore the fact that I laid out an argument for why Lynn wasn't a clear cut #1 starter on this staff, the 2005 White Sox "benched" their All-Star, Opening Day ace for Game 1 of the ALDS, ALCS, and World Series for Jose Contreras because Jose Contreras had a hot hand.