Offseason Thread

[Texsox]

19 hours ago, hankchifan said:

Fans are an important stakeholder for the Sox, and should be listened too.  I guess many players would not prefer a hard driven hard ass manager.  Would prefer a low energy manager not pushing them too hard.

I think most players want a manager that helps their career and lifetime earnings. 

[poppysox]

5 hours ago, Flash said:

Eloy's value is polarizing for fans. There are clearly those who believe he will eventually fulfill on the promise he displayed while literally exploding lights in the OF tower. Since his debut in 2019 he has accumulated 3.4 WAR across almost 900 plate appearance (0.6 across 213 PA in '21). Can he hit for power?...no doubt. Awkward and uncoordinated?...yep.

I am respectful of the opinions of most here and can understand the appeal of Eloy. That said, I am not a fan and believe his value in trade will continue to plummet from today's level which, we might be unpleasantly surprised to find, is not as robust as some believe. Moreover, to me, he appears to lack intensity and seriousness. Maybe I'm being overly critical and I don't expect him to be Juan Soto and stare down pitchers after each pitch but I'd sure like to see him act like he gives a shit.

Obviously, I'd trade him to capitalize on whatever trade value he possesses. I might be wrong but I don't think the Sox can ever reach the promised land with Eloy in LF and the middle of the lineup...especially as long as Abreu is also around.  

Some interesting thoughts to ponder.

[Colome's Hat]

Goddamnit.  I am doing a terrible job of taking a sabatical but I read some of this stuff in this thread and I have thoughts.  

1) We don't need a fulltime catcher.  We need a back up, and I would do everything I can to sign Maldonado for that, but Yasmani Grandal is a really good defensive catcher.  He needs to get better at blocking pitches but his framing is excellent.  And to be honest, the reason the Astros were able to run at will on him is not his fault but the fault of the pitchers.  Pudge Rodriguez in his prime would not have been able to throw these runners out.  The pitchers did such an awful job of holding them on.  Ozzie pointed this out.  The only pitcher it seems who is somewhat good at this is Keuchel.  He works quickly and he has a pretty solid pickoff move.  But the rest are really bad at this.  They need to get better at it.

2) It would be awesome if we got Scherzer but I'm kind of torn about even trading Keuchel.  Keuchel was atrocious but its very likely that we could see a bounce back year.  Dude finished fifth in Cy Young voting in 2020.  And had a solid first half.  That being said, if they can find a suitor and get something back in value, I would do it.  To be honest, I think adding another starting pitcher isn't a priority.  These guys are who they were this season.  And with more experience in the postseason, they will get better.

3) Eloy shouldn't be traded.  This is such an overreaction.  LaRussa actually got an A- from Fangraphs for his lineup construction in the playoffs.  But I do think with Abreu and him, you should break them up in the order.  Let's say we get someone like a McNeil (let me dream for a second), my lineup would be something like this.

TA
McNeil

Abreu

Luis

Eloy

Grandal

Moncada

Sheets

Vaughn

Eloy's struggles this year were pretty bad but Dude is a bonafide superstar.  

4) I think the White Sox should stop looking at the AL Central and look at the Astros as their Northstar or their bullies.  In the same way we did with the Twins in 05, how can we make ourselves a little like the Astros.  How can we gain that killer edge?  How can we match up better with them.  It's a small signing but Maldonado would be huge.  He's a veteran who can likely impart a lot of wisdom onto some of these younger players, especially during the postseason.  

5) Change up the coaching staff.  La Russa isn't going anywhere and quite frankly, nor should he.  And Katz and Cairo are both really good.  But like the rest of the coaching staff is basically what we had with Ventura and Renteria.  Tony has talked about leaning a lot on his coaching staff in St. Louis.  A lot of these guys aren't very good.  Also Menechino, if he doesn't go, is on a short leash.  There's probably not a chance in hell they could get Cintron from Houston but someone like him would be amazing.

 

Anyways, I'll try and get back to my sabbatical. 

[caulfield12]

28 minutes ago, Colome's Hat said:

Goddamnit.  I am doing a terrible job of taking a sabatical but I read some of this stuff in this thread and I have thoughts.  

1) We don't need a fulltime catcher.  We need a back up, and I would do everything I can to sign Maldonado for that, but Yasmani Grandal is a really good defensive catcher.  He needs to get better at blocking pitches but his framing is excellent.  And to be honest, the reason the Astros were able to run at will on him is not his fault but the fault of the pitchers.  Pudge Rodriguez in his prime would not have been able to throw these runners out.  The pitchers did such an awful job of holding them on.  Ozzie pointed this out.  The only pitcher it seems who is somewhat good at this is Keuchel.  He works quickly and he has a pretty solid pickoff move.  But the rest are really bad at this.  They need to get better at it.

2) It would be awesome if we got Scherzer but I'm kind of torn about even trading Keuchel.  Keuchel was atrocious but its very likely that we could see a bounce back year.  Dude finished fifth in Cy Young voting in 2020.  And had a solid first half.  That being said, if they can find a suitor and get something back in value, I would do it.  To be honest, I think adding another starting pitcher isn't a priority.  These guys are who they were this season.  And with more experience in the postseason, they will get better.

3) Eloy shouldn't be traded.  This is such an overreaction.  LaRussa actually got an A- from Fangraphs for his lineup construction in the playoffs.  But I do think with Abreu and him, you should break them up in the order.  Let's say we get someone like a McNeil (let me dream for a second), my lineup would be something like this.

TA
McNeil

Abreu

Luis

Eloy

Grandal

Moncada

Sheets

Vaughn

Eloy's struggles this year were pretty bad but Dude is a bonafide superstar.  

4) I think the White Sox should stop looking at the AL Central and look at the Astros as their Northstar or their bullies.  In the same way we did with the Twins in 05, how can we make ourselves a little like the Astros.  How can we gain that killer edge?  How can we match up better with them.  It's a small signing but Maldonado would be huge.  He's a veteran who can likely impart a lot of wisdom onto some of these younger players, especially during the postseason.  

5) Change up the coaching staff.  La Russa isn't going anywhere and quite frankly, nor should he.  And Katz and Cairo are both really good.  But like the rest of the coaching staff is basically what we had with Ventura and Renteria.  Tony has talked about leaning a lot on his coaching staff in St. Louis.  A lot of these guys aren't very good.  Also Menechino, if he doesn't go, is on a short leash.  There's probably not a chance in hell they could get Cintron from Houston but someone like him would be amazing.

 

Anyways, I'll try and get back to my sabbatical. 

I'm assuming you mean Narron, McEwing or Boston then...?

[CentralChamps21]

42 minutes ago, Colome's Hat said:

1) We don't need a fulltime catcher.  We need a back up, and I would do everything I can to sign Maldonado for that, but Yasmani Grandal is a really good defensive catcher.  He needs to get better at blocking pitches but his framing is excellent.  And to be honest, the reason the Astros were able to run at will on him is not his fault but the fault of the pitchers.  Pudge Rodriguez in his prime would not have been able to throw these runners out.  The pitchers did such an awful job of holding them on.  Ozzie pointed this out.  The only pitcher it seems who is somewhat good at this is Keuchel.  He works quickly and he has a pretty solid pickoff move.  But the rest are really bad at this.  They need to get better at it.

 

Of course Keuchel is better at holding runners. Look at how much practice he got.

[Balta1701]

50 minutes ago, Colome's Hat said:

Goddamnit.  I am doing a terrible job of taking a sabatical but I read some of this stuff in this thread and I have thoughts.  

1) We don't need a fulltime catcher.  We need a back up, and I would do everything I can to sign Maldonado for that,

Maldonado is under contract with the Astros for next year and will not be a free agent. You would have to trade for him.

[hankchifan]

7 hours ago, Flash said:

Obviously. My point was Eloy and Abreu have similar batting profiles. Free swingers prone to chasing sliders out of the zone. When they connect, its fun but too often pitchers can induce Ks or weak contact.

 

Or hit into double plays.

[reiks12]

Grandal, Abreu, Leury, Vaughn, and Eloy are double play machines which is why i dont understand how this team can be ok taking a contact approach. Its a waste. We ranked 27th in GDP. 

Edited October 17, 2021 by reiks12

[hi8is]

10 hours ago, CentralChamps21 said:

Of course Keuchel is better at holding runners. Look at how much practice he got.

Burned.

[Boopa1219]

22 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Maldonado is under contract with the Astros for next year and will not be a free agent. You would have to trade for him.

I was going to say but that’s the type of catcher the Sox should look to acquire this winter. 

[hi8is]

Too bad Seiya Suzuki isn’t left handed.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=suzuki001sei

[Chimpton]

I was just looking at the Sox top 30 prospects to see if there was any hope on there of adding to the squad for 2022. Does anyone think that Cespedes (Yoelqui)  will be MLB ready at any time next year as the ETA on the list says?  Also what happens to Lambert and Stiever, neither is getting any younger will they be trade pieces? Finally Yolbert Sanchez is he a long term (or short term) hope for 2B or just another make weight in a trade?

[Jerry McNertney]

I see Cespedes' top side potential as a 2015-2016 Adam Eaton comp. He might have a little bit of power, maybe 15 home runs a year and a .280 BA with speed. Unfortunately, he hits right handed, and those Eaton comps are a best case scenario.

[Kyyle23]

Wat

[bmags]

2 hours ago, Chimpton said:

I was just looking at the Sox top 30 prospects to see if there was any hope on there of adding to the squad for 2022. Does anyone think that Cespedes (Yoelqui)  will be MLB ready at any time next year as the ETA on the list says?  Also what happens to Lambert and Stiever, neither is getting any younger will they be trade pieces? Finally Yolbert Sanchez is he a long term (or short term) hope for 2B or just another make weight in a trade?

There isn’t a lot. Yolbert could be a utility soon, but Romy is an interesting guy there. He hit for a lot of power and played multiple positions. Going 20/20 in Birmingham is pretty eye opening.

Carlos Perez is a guy I think can be a backup catcher and just bring in a vet like Chirinos.

But, in bullpen you could end up with bounce back years from Foster, Fry and Marshall. McClure and Schryver have interesting arms or profiles (McClure is super tall) but need to show more.

Starting….you basically need Kopech and Crochet to convert - those are your main prospects there. 
 

Birmingham will be interesting. With Jose Rodriguez, if he continues to keep raking, being a guy many of us hope is the next position player starter. He’d only be 21 and who knows, he could explode and be ready.

But mostly, if they weren’t in AAA last year not much in depth.

[bmags]

43 minutes ago, Jerry McNertney said:

I see Cespedes' top side potential as a 2015-2016 Adam Eaton comp. He might have a little bit of power, maybe 15 home runs a year and a .280 BA with speed. Unfortunately, he hits right handed, and those Eaton comps are a best case scenario.

I don’t think this is a very good comp, both BA and BB% very unlikely to be at Eaton levels, but he could end up with plus power.

[Two-Gun Pete]

On 10/16/2021 at 5:35 PM, Colome's Hat said:

Katz and Cairo are both really good. 

WRT Katz, what is he really good at?

Is he good at helping the pitchers hold the runners, or do they do a shitty job at it?

Is he good at helping Alkie Tony manage the bullpen, or did he help turn a 71.7% chance of winning game 2 into a loss by running Crochet out there?

Does he know how to help manage a bullpen with 2 old/expensive closers, or did he let Kimbrel suck out loud all year, without taking action? 

I think Katz has some skills/strengths, but there are some real weaknesses that he has. And with a geezing geezer as manager, both the bench coach and pitching coach need to up their games.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Two-Gun Pete

[southsider2k5]

2 hours ago, Jerry McNertney said:

I see Cespedes' top side potential as a 2015-2016 Adam Eaton comp. He might have a little bit of power, maybe 15 home runs a year and a .280 BA with speed. Unfortunately, he hits right handed, and those Eaton comps are a best case scenario.

I am curious when you saw him and what you saw/

[kleedawg]

Do you really think Katz is the reason our pitchers are bad at holding runners? For chrissake how long had Lance Lynn been in the league? 

[Colome's Hat]

3 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

WRT Katz, what is he really good at?

Is he good at helping the pitchers hold the runners, or do they do a shitty job at it?

Is he good at helping Alkie Tony manage the bullpen, or did he help turn a 71.7% chance of winning game 2 into a loss by running Crochet out there?

Does he know how to help manage a bullpen with 2 old/expensive closers, or did he let Kimbrel suck out loud all year, without taking action? 

I think Katz has some skills/strengths, but there are some real weaknesses that he has. And with a geezing geezer as manager, both the bench coach and pitching coach need to up their games.

Katz is arguably responsible for the success our starting staff had.  Without him, I don't think Rodon and Cease have the years they do.  Or even perhaps Lynn.  Obviously he can get better but I'm not sure we are going to find a much better pitching coach for this staff than him.  Also I can't blame him for the bullpen.  Bullpen pitchers are volatile. 

[Balta1701]

18 minutes ago, Colome's Hat said:

Katz is arguably responsible for the success our starting staff had.  Without him, I don't think Rodon and Cease have the years they do.  Or even perhaps Lynn.  Obviously he can get better but I'm not sure we are going to find a much better pitching coach for this staff than him.  Also I can't blame him for the bullpen.  Bullpen pitchers are volatile. 

"I will give this guy credit for all good things and use an excuse for all the bad things, thus proving he must be great".

[reiks12]

Its hilarious to me, Don Cooper failed our starters but always seemed to have a good bullpen, now Katz improved our starters but failed our bullpen. Bring back Cooper for our pen! Have Katz focus on the starters!

[Dick Allen]

18 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

"I will give this guy credit for all good things and use an excuse for all the bad things, thus proving he must be great".

That was Don Cooper the last 15 years of his tenure.

[bmags]

Sox were 5th in ERA this year. 162 games.

In February/March, gospel around here was our offense would crush but we were severely challenged for depth in the pitching staff.

Would love to go back and time and ask if the sox finished 1st in pitching WAR and 5th in ERA if they think that would qualify the pitching coach to have done a good job, or if the better evaluation is to be traumatized by a playoff series.

For all the talk of cutting the legs out from under the offense to get better at the margins, the pitching staffs no control/ all velo approach seems like the better place to optimize for the playoffs. Getting a guy like Joe Kelly (curveball heavy) or McHugh (slider heavy/cutter) are interesting players to add and Kelly is never fazed in the playoffs.

[Boopa1219]

6 hours ago, Jerry McNertney said:

I see Cespedes' top side potential as a 2015-2016 Adam Eaton comp. He might have a little bit of power, maybe 15 home runs a year and a .280 BA with speed. Unfortunately, he hits right handed, and those Eaton comps are a best case scenario.

Very optimistic, I hope the Sox trade him for something useful to the ML team