Offseason Thread

[Chicago White Sox]

4 minutes ago, Flash said:

Have convinced myself the Diamondbacks are ideal trade partner and Daulton Varsho and Ketel Marte are the ideal targets. Varsho, 5 yrs of arb control and Marte 3 more years of control beginning at $8M for '22. D-backs are years away from challenging and would really benefit from influx of young talent. I'd dangle Eloy, Crochet, Collins, Sheets and be prepared to throw in Lopez, Burger and or Kelley. Varsho provides LH power and strong defense as catcher or any OF position and Marte is the perfect IF addition and middle of the order bat.  I'd also be in discussion with the Phils about Gregorious. They might be very willing to offload his $14M salary in exchange for a closer like Kimbrel. Am guessing Didi  and his LH power could seamlessly slide to 2B, at least through '22.

Why are the D-Backs trading for Eloy if they are years away from competing?

[Flash]

2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Why are the D-Backs trading for Eloy if they are years away from competing?

Eloys only 24. Marte is 28.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 minute ago, Flash said:

Eloys only 24. Marte is 28.

But they’d also be giving up a controllable piece in Varsho.  If they’re going to blow it up, my guess is they’d want prospects and we probably don’t have much that would interest them.

[Flash]

10 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

But they’d also be giving up a controllable piece in Varsho.  If they’re going to blow it up, my guess is they’d want prospects and we probably don’t have much that would interest them.

I don't disagree. But the pu pu platter of young talent I mentioned plus maybe pieces I'm not aware of might get the conversation started. I believe Marte will get moved this offseason and I also believe Varsho would be ideal in WS uniform. Where there's a will..... 

[poppysox]

10 hours ago, kleedawg said:

So, spend lots of $ on Castellanos which makes our defense worse, exacerbates are right handed hitting imbalance, and hampers are being able to re-sign our core players when the time comes. Also, sell low on young , cheap players like Vaughn or potential superstars because they struggled after missing most of the year due to injury like Eloy. 

Seriously people, we have had multiple pages debating me that we can't have Sheets in RF because of his defense, but then  suggestions we get guys like Schwarber & Castellanos to play RF. 

Yep!

[ChiSox59]

10 hours ago, kleedawg said:

So, spend lots of $ on Castellanos which makes our defense worse, exacerbates are right handed hitting imbalance, and hampers are being able to re-sign our core players when the time comes. Also, sell low on young , cheap players like Vaughn or potential superstars because they struggled after missing most of the year due to injury like Eloy. 

Seriously people, we have had multiple pages debating me that we can't have Sheets in RF because of his defense, but then  suggestions we get guys like Schwarber & Castellanos to play RF. 

I don’t think either Castellanos or Schwarber are fits for this team at all. But they’d be far far far far far better options than handing RF to Sheets. 

[hankchifan]

Happy to see Stan Bowman finally leave as Blackhawks GM after 10 years.  Could we also see Hahn joining Bowman in a Greyhound bus out of town with a one way ticket, picking up TLR on the way as well.  Hahn really screwed up mid season acquisitions and TLR threw in the towel on HFA , over did the resting, and mismanaged in game decisions.  Sox had a .500 record the second half of the season with our big guys back during most of that period.  Somebody needs to be accountable.

[Balta1701]

28 minutes ago, hankchifan said:

Happy to see Stan Bowman finally leave as Blackhawks GM after 10 years.  Could we also see Hahn joining Bowman in a Greyhound bus out of town with a one way ticket, picking up TLR on the way as well.  Hahn really screwed up mid season acquisitions and TLR threw in the towel on HFA , over did the resting, and mismanaged in game decisions.  Sox had a .500 record the second half of the season with our big guys back during most of that period.  Somebody needs to be accountable.

Just so someone says it, the type of accountability required by Chicago’s Hockey Franchise isn’t exactly comparable to a bad trade deadline.

[ShoeLessRob]

If they had interest in Castellanos wouldn’t they have signed him before? 

[caulfield12]

It's kind of crazy to keep adding expensive veterans to the young core...

Didn't anyone learn any lessons from the Cubs, who had a budget in the $50-75 million range above and beyond the White Sox?  They had to tear down, because they struck out on nearly all their big FA moves and couldn't successfully supplement the pitching staff from the minors.

No doubt it's like being between a rock and a hard place, but underselling on guys like Vaughn, Jimenez and Crochet (and you can add Burger/Sheets as well if you want) is simply going to lead to another situation like the 2014-15 White Sox faced, with 4-5 really good players, but not enough quality depth surrounding them.

Yes, we have a younger core, more depth and Luis Robert....but we're still realistically 2-3 players away from being at the top of the AL.

Are the White Sox actually going to spend their way out of this dilemma, or be patient for one more year for those aforementioned guys as well as Kopech to develop?

 

Because if they deal more guys (on top of the Madrigal trade) and MISS badly in analyzing all those young talents, then they're essentially looking at 2024 as the last year to keep up the window unless they are willing to spend in the $190-200+ million range in 2024.

Of course, the other pressing problem is the expiring shelf life of those five aging, 30 something high-priced veterans is RAPIDLY approaching.

 

 

Edited October 28, 2021 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

31 minutes ago, ShoeLessRob said:

If they had interest in Castellanos wouldn’t they have signed him before? 

Surely they had INTEREST, but not in that price range.   We have a track record of almost never buying a FA at peak value...other than maybe Dunn and Robertson, although Cabrera, Grandal and LaRoche fit as well.

[Chicago White Sox]

15 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Surely they had INTEREST, but not in that price range.   We have a track record of almost never buying a FA at peak value...other than maybe Dunn and Robertson, although Cabrera, Grandal and LaRoche fit as well.

• Grandal = 4/$73M ($18.3 AAV)
• Castellanos = 4/$64M ($16M AAV)
• Keuchel = 3/$55M ($18.5M AAV)

?‍♂️

[Rey21]

4 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

I don’t think either Castellanos or Schwarber are fits for this team at all. But they’d be far far far far far better options than handing RF to Sheets. 

Are they not fits because of their defense? Because at least you might be able to say Castellanos might be a better hitter than anyone currently on the Sox. 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

• Grandal = 4/$73M ($18.3 AAV)
• Castellanos = 4/$64M ($16M AAV)
• Keuchel = 3/$55M ($18.5M AAV)

?‍♂️

Keuchel always was going to be an overpay...basically, for that one 2020 season.  But he was the VERY back-end of that FA pitching market, at least in terms of the A Tier.

I guess you can argue that Castellanos was almost a hitting version of that, not elite, but a very high quality hitter...obviously younger, of course.

[ChiSox59]

3 hours ago, Rey21 said:

Are they not fits because of their defense? Because at least you might be able to say Castellanos might be a better hitter than anyone currently on the Sox. 

We don’t need more DHs on this roster.

[hi8is]

“Hey, Cubs…. We’d like to talk about that Nick Madrigal guy you’ve got. How about we send over Jake Burger and Gavin Sheets for him to come back here?”

?

[Two-Gun Pete]

9 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

It's kind of crazy to keep adding expensive veterans to the young core...

1. Didn't anyone learn any lessons from the Cubs, who had a budget in the $50-75 million range above and beyond the White Sox?  They had to tear down, because they struck out on nearly all their big FA moves and couldn't successfully supplement the pitching staff from the minors.

2. No doubt it's like being between a rock and a hard place, but underselling on guys like Vaughn, Jimenez and Crochet (and you can add Burger/Sheets as well if you want) is simply going to lead to another situation like the 2014-15 White Sox faced, with 4-5 really good players, but not enough quality depth surrounding them.

3. Yes, we have a younger core, more depth and Luis Robert....but we're still realistically 2-3 players away from being at the top of the AL.

4. Are the White Sox actually going to spend their way out of this dilemma, or be patient for one more year for those aforementioned guys as well as Kopech to develop?

5.Because if they deal more guys (on top of the Madrigal trade) and MISS badly in analyzing all those young talents, then they're essentially looking at 2024 as the last year to keep up the window unless they are willing to spend in the $190-200+ million range in 2024.

1. No. This FO never learns any fucking thing, because they're too stoopid. They forced us to wait and watch for seasons, as they tore it all down, and gained cost-controlled youngsters. They then extended some parts of the core; both of these actions were smart, but then they squandered financial flexibility in the stoopid Kimbrel trade, thus shortening the window.

2. Agreed. Part of the problem is that Vaughn/Sheets/Burger/Jimenez all profile the same way; decent bats that can't field a position to a league-average level. There are only so many players like that you can have on your roster. And there are only so many FOs that have an interest in all bat/no field types in trade.

3. Agreed. And this FO should have KNOWN THAT before they traded 10 years of control for 2 youngsters for a closer.

4. No, they won't spend their way out of this, unless (God Forbid) JR is terminally ill.

5. This window will only last til 2024, as Giolito will be a UFA by then. Of course, not getting the year of control back on Kopech didn't help, while not spending part of 2021 trying to stretch out Crochet didn't help, either. For less cash than they squandered on Kimbrel, they could have signed 2 RPs last offseason, so that Kopech/Crochet could have been stretched out/got the year of control back.

(EDIT) Actually, with as weak as the ALC was this year, they probably only needed to sign 1 RP to take Crochet's place in the pen, while some other AAAA schmuck could have taken Kopech's place for the ~6 weeks or so for Kopech to get the year of control back.

 

In effect, there are 2 more seasons left in this window, IMO.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Two-Gun Pete

[bmags]

30 posts:

Castellanos is a good hitter but we are already too redundant in right handed hitting limited corner outfielder types

Next post:

Do people think Castellanos is not a fit just because of his defense?

30 posts:

Castellanos is a good hitter but we are already too redundant in right handed hitting limited corner outfielder types
 

Next post:

Do people think Castellanos is not a fit just because of his defense?

[Kyyle23]

2 minutes ago, bmags said:

30 posts:

Castellanos is a good hitter but we are already too redundant in right handed hitting limited corner outfielder types

Next post:

Do people think Castellanos is not a fit just because of his defense?

30 posts:

Castellanos is a good hitter but we are already too redundant in right handed hitting limited corner outfielder types
 

Next post:

Do people think Castellanos is not a fit just because of his defense?

Do you like Castellanos in RF next year?  If you do, are you worried about his defense?

 

I will hang up and listen 

[Rey21]

5 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

We don’t need more DHs on this roster.

But IMO he’s a better hitter than anybody else on this roster, isn’t that what we want? As much as we want to say defense/pitching was an issue, the offense was just as shitty in the postseason… So why not add Castellanos who can hit RIGHT NOW, during a championship window. I get the DH/corner overload but he’s a better hitter than any of the DH/corner OF types they have and then allows you to shop Sheets/Vaughn/Eloy/Abreu to fill other holes. We can agree to disagree but Castellanos hit both LHP & RHP very well, regardless of handiness the dude just hits and brings an attitude something this team lacks. For a team who offense looked so inconsistent all season I’m surprised people want to pass up on his bat. 

Edited October 28, 2021 by Rey21

[ChiSox59]

6 minutes ago, Rey21 said:

But IMO he’s a better hitter than anybody else on this roster, isn’t that what we want? As much as we want to say defense/pitching was an issue, the offense was just as shitty in the postseason… So why not add Castellanos who can hit RIGHT NOW, during a championship window. I get the DH/corner overload but he’s a better hitter than any of the DH/corner OF types they have and then allows you to shop Sheets/Vaughn/Eloy/Abreu to fill other holes. We can agree to disagree but Castellanos hit both LHP & RHP very well, regardless of handiness the dude just hits and brings an attitude something this team lacks. For a team who offense looked so inconsistent all season I’m surprised people want to pass up on his bat. 

Yeah, I am going to go with the agree to disagree route.  Did you not also see how poor our defense was in the playoffs?

Abreu is going no where.  Sox are not selling low on Eloy.  Maybe Vaughn is dangled this offseason, but I sure as hell hope not.  Castellanos is a poor defender.  I agree his bat helps this lineup (tho it doesn't help the lineup balance we badly need to address), but he's just not a fit.  We need at worst an average defender in RF with Vaughn/Eloy in LF.  Nick C. is not that.  Yes, he is a good hitter, but Conforto is a far better fit for this lineup.  

Sounds like you're mostly focused on building the best MLB the Show team, so I will leave it at that. 

Edited October 28, 2021 by ChiSox59

[Bob Sacamano]

If you were to sign Castellanos for say 4 or 5 years, that’s the same amount of time you would have Vaughn (5 more years of control, assuming he doesn’t get sent down for a period of time due to struggles) and you can make him available.

Not saying I want to go this route, but if you wanted to deal for another starter or someone at 2B.

[southsider2k5]

 

[kleedawg]

Rey 21 said "But IMO he’s a better hitter than anybody else on this roster, isn’t that what we want? As much as we want to say defense/pitching was an issue, the offense was just as shitty in the postseason… So why not add Castellanos who can hit RIGHT NOW, during a championship window. I get the DH/corner overload but he’s a better hitter than any of the DH/corner OF types they have and then allows you to shop Sheets/Vaughn/Eloy/Abreu to fill other holes. We can agree to disagree but Castellanos hit both LHP & RHP very well, regardless of handiness the dude just hits and brings an attitude something this team lacks. For a team who offense looked so inconsistent all season I’m surprised people want to pass up on his bat. "

 

Yes Castellanos would make our hitting incrementally better if he doesn't regress at a contract that would greatly hamper fixing our other needs and retaining the core.

Let me use this analogy to to help explain the situation. 

You have a house with a good furnace, but its winter and you have all the windows open. What do you do? Option 1  is buy a newer more efficient furnace (castellanos). Option 2 close the windows. Man that new furnace would be great, but its not your most pressing need, and its cheaper to close the damn windows.

Edited October 28, 2021 by kleedawg
quote didnt come through

[Bob Sacamano]

Why do people assume they would shop Abreu? That is never going to happen.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Bob Sacamano