Offseason Thread

[Chicago White Sox]

2 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

Right, that's one way they accomplish it. I just think it's frustrating that it's been pretty well established that their style of pitching depth is highly associated with winning for nearly ten years now, and the White Sox are still willing to go "all in" with 3.5 starters and a prayer. And while it isn't fair to expect any team to spend like the highest spending team, I would argue there's a GULF of difference between the Dodgers excess and what the White Sox have done. I mean, try to remember how insane it was to have penciled in both Rodon (who was a TOTAL lottery ticket) AND Dylan Cease (who was not at ALL established). Both those things worked out, but neither was likely to work out, and a couple $8-10mm dollar one year deals could have substantially mitigated the risk. Even if you could convince me their scouting was able to see something that made it likelier those guys would do what they did, it's hard to make an argument not to buy the insurance policy nonetheless. 

Which starters in the $8 to $10M ranger took bullpen roles?  And what other cuts would have you made to fit another $16M to $20M worth of pitchers in the budget?  I agree the pitching depth to the enter the season last year was a bit scary, but I honestly don’t think your proposal is very realistic outside of the most elite spenders.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

13 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

You lost me at trading Lance Lynn.  Like it literally would never happen after signing that extension and it doesn’t make a lick of sense IMO.  You simply don’t trade a guy like Lance when you’re trying to win a World Series.

Lynn is his grandal of the pitchers. Been talking about how fat and worthless Lynn is for months now.

[Dick Allen]

If the Sox were stupid enough to trade Vaughn, you know Larussa would compound the mistake and Albert Pujols would be batting clean up for the White Sox 

[ron883]

15 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Seven deep of credible starting options is the standard if you want to be able to survive the season and have a solid rotation available. It's why I proposed getting younger studs like Pablo Lopez, Tony Gonsolin, perhaps using the savings of trading off the high priced veterans and sign another top starter like Robbie Ray. Coupled with Giolito, Cease, and Kopech, you have a tremendous young pitching core which will extend the window, and the depth to absorb one or two major injuries the Sox were fortunate to avoid this season.

Eloy was the one core player I proposed trading, because he doesn't have the desire, nor likely the ability, to contribute consistently at the DH role, and you can get solid value for him now. Coupled with Mercedes, I believe Kim Ng would love to acquire those two players, as she has tons of pitching but little in terms of hitters.

Lynn also holds a lot of trade value know, he will likely regress between health and age. The Dodgers are likely one of the few, if any. other teams willing to take on $16M for Kimbrel (and if not, eat the $2M and move on). With Lux and Gallo two solid LH bats, you improve the lineup against RHP, and the pitchers will also benefit with having catchers able to block sliders in the dirt, catching plays at the plate. A new manager would implement modern defensive alignments, and will lay off the CS failed Hit and Runs, the wasted runs playing the infield in early in games, the poor defensive injury prone LFer and finally field a credible RF.

It would be difficult to pull off all of the moves, but at the same time it illustrates how keeping, not trading young cost controlled players is the key to creating and lengthening a long term competitive window. The Sox have moved in the opposite direction via their trades and signings the past two seasons, and have severely restricted flexibility while reducing their window.

Hitters $79.4M + Pitchers $67.0M = $146.4M

SS Anderson (Age July 1, 2022 29; 2022 actual/projected salary $9.5M) 3B Moncada (27 $13.8) # 1B Abreu (35, $19.7) RF Gallo (28 $9.5)^ CF Robert (24 $6.0) DH Sheets (26 $0.6) ^C Contreras (30 $9.0) LF Vaughn (24 $0.6) 2B Lux (24 $0.6)^

Bench: Gomes (34 $3.5), Engel (30 $2.0), Garcia (31 $4.0), Gonzalez (25 $0.6).

SP: Giolito (27, $8.3), Ray (30, $30.0), Pablo Lopez (26, $2.5), Kopech (26, $0.6), Cease (26, $0.6), Gonsolin (27, $0.6).

RP: Hendriks (33, $13.3), Bummer (28, $2.5), Crochet (23, $0.6M), Reynaldo Lopez (28, $2.0), Ruiz (27, $0.6), Free Agent TBD (30, $3.0), Free Agent TBD (30, $3.0)

Trades:

• Eloy and Mercedes to Miami for Pablo Lopez.
• Lynn, Keuchel and Kimbrel to Los Angeles N.L. for Gavin Lux and Tony Gonsolin.
• Grandal to New York A.L. for Gallo.
• Burger, Collins, prospects to Chicago N.L. for Willson Contreras.

Trade Lance Lynn  keep scrolling folks, nothing worth reading here

[Bob Sacamano]

15 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Seven deep of credible starting options is the standard if you want to be able to survive the season and have a solid rotation available. It's why I proposed getting younger studs like Pablo Lopez, Tony Gonsolin, perhaps using the savings of trading off the high priced veterans and sign another top starter like Robbie Ray. Coupled with Giolito, Cease, and Kopech, you have a tremendous young pitching core which will extend the window, and the depth to absorb one or two major injuries the Sox were fortunate to avoid this season.

Eloy was the one core player I proposed trading, because he doesn't have the desire, nor likely the ability, to contribute consistently at the DH role, and you can get solid value for him now. Coupled with Mercedes, I believe Kim Ng would love to acquire those two players, as she has tons of pitching but little in terms of hitters.

Lynn also holds a lot of trade value know, he will likely regress between health and age. The Dodgers are likely one of the few, if any. other teams willing to take on $16M for Kimbrel (and if not, eat the $2M and move on). With Lux and Gallo two solid LH bats, you improve the lineup against RHP, and the pitchers will also benefit with having catchers able to block sliders in the dirt, catching plays at the plate. A new manager would implement modern defensive alignments, and will lay off the CS failed Hit and Runs, the wasted runs playing the infield in early in games, the poor defensive injury prone LFer and finally field a credible RF.

It would be difficult to pull off all of the moves, but at the same time it illustrates how keeping, not trading young cost controlled players is the key to creating and lengthening a long term competitive window. The Sox have moved in the opposite direction via their trades and signings the past two seasons, and have severely restricted flexibility while reducing their window.

Hitters $79.4M + Pitchers $67.0M = $146.4M

SS Anderson (Age July 1, 2022 29; 2022 actual/projected salary $9.5M) 3B Moncada (27 $13.8) # 1B Abreu (35, $19.7) RF Gallo (28 $9.5)^ CF Robert (24 $6.0) DH Sheets (26 $0.6) ^C Contreras (30 $9.0) LF Vaughn (24 $0.6) 2B Lux (24 $0.6)^

Bench: Gomes (34 $3.5), Engel (30 $2.0), Garcia (31 $4.0), Gonzalez (25 $0.6).

SP: Giolito (27, $8.3), Ray (30, $30.0), Pablo Lopez (26, $2.5), Kopech (26, $0.6), Cease (26, $0.6), Gonsolin (27, $0.6).

RP: Hendriks (33, $13.3), Bummer (28, $2.5), Crochet (23, $0.6M), Reynaldo Lopez (28, $2.0), Ruiz (27, $0.6), Free Agent TBD (30, $3.0), Free Agent TBD (30, $3.0)

Trades:

• Eloy and Mercedes to Miami for Pablo Lopez.
• Lynn, Keuchel and Kimbrel to Los Angeles N.L. for Gavin Lux and Tony Gonsolin.
• Grandal to New York A.L. for Gallo.
• Burger, Collins, prospects to Chicago N.L. for Willson Contreras.

Yeah this definitely feels like a worse team.

[Eminor3rd]

13 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Which starters in the $8 to $10M ranger took bullpen roles?  And what other cuts would have you made to fit another $16M to $20M worth of pitchers in the budget?  I agree the pitching depth to the enter the season last year was a bit scary, but I honestly don’t think your proposal is very realistic outside of the most elite spenders.

Charlie Morton,  James Paxton, Jose Quintana, Rick Porcello, Jon Lester, Brett Anderson, Anthony Desclafani, Cole Hamels, Robbie Ray, Mike Fiers, Martin Perez, JA Happ, Jake Arrieta, Rich Hill, Chase Anderson, Tyler Chatwood, Aaron Sanchez, Chris Archer, Garrett Richards, Matt Shoemaker, Corey Kluber, Trevor WIlliams, Mike Foltynewicz, Collin McHugh, Matt Moore, Jose Urena, Tyler Anderson, Michael Wacha, Alex Wood, Trevor Cahill, and Sam McWilliams all signed one year MLB deals going into the 2021 season, and their ultimate contributions ranged from "minor bullpen piece" to "All-Star starter." It's hard not to use hindsight to rate them all now, but going into the season, you could easily imagine any one of them being all-stars or ending up in the bullpen. I believe the Sox absolutely should have signed AT LEAST one of those guys, maybe two. If two is too rich, Ivan Nova, Jordan Zimmermann, Gio Gonzalez, Tyson Ross, Julio Teheran, Tommy Milone, Jefry Rodriguez, Chi Chi Gonzalez, Jhoulys Chacin, and Wade LeBlanc all signed minor league deals -- and you can't tell me that the White Sox situation wasn't one where there was a good chance for those guys to get a real shot, so it would be hard to believe that those guys wouldn't want to take a deal in Chicago because of the DC.

Before you say it: yes, many of those ended up commanding more than $10mm. That doesn't change the point; none of them commanded over $15mm, which shouldn't be a meaningful difference for the White Sox at this juncture, given their current payroll and position on the win curve.

[Chicago White Sox]

47 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

Charlie Morton,  James Paxton, Jose Quintana, Rick Porcello, Jon Lester, Brett Anderson, Anthony Desclafani, Cole Hamels, Robbie Ray, Mike Fiers, Martin Perez, JA Happ, Jake Arrieta, Rich Hill, Chase Anderson, Tyler Chatwood, Aaron Sanchez, Chris Archer, Garrett Richards, Matt Shoemaker, Corey Kluber, Trevor WIlliams, Mike Foltynewicz, Collin McHugh, Matt Moore, Jose Urena, Tyler Anderson, Michael Wacha, Alex Wood, Trevor Cahill, and Sam McWilliams all signed one year MLB deals going into the 2021 season, and their ultimate contributions ranged from "minor bullpen piece" to "All-Star starter." It's hard not to use hindsight to rate them all now, but going into the season, you could easily imagine any one of them being all-stars or ending up in the bullpen. I believe the Sox absolutely should have signed AT LEAST one of those guys, maybe two. If two is too rich, Ivan Nova, Jordan Zimmermann, Gio Gonzalez, Tyson Ross, Julio Teheran, Tommy Milone, Jefry Rodriguez, Chi Chi Gonzalez, Jhoulys Chacin, and Wade LeBlanc all signed minor league deals -- and you can't tell me that the White Sox situation wasn't one where there was a good chance for those guys to get a real shot, so it would be hard to believe that those guys wouldn't want to take a deal in Chicago because of the DC.

Before you say it: yes, many of those ended up commanding more than $10mm. That doesn't change the point; none of them commanded over $15mm, which shouldn't be a meaningful difference for the White Sox at this juncture, given their current payroll and position on the win curve.

I think you’re missing my point.  Most of the guys in the $8M to $10M aren’t going to sign up for a bullpen role and be seventh in the pecking order behind Giolito, Lynn, Cease, Keuchel, Rodon, & Kopech heading into last season.  They took roles in which they had a shot at immediate starting roles.  I fully agree with you that we need more guys able to jump into the rotation and eat innings, but practically no teams can afford multiple $10M starters in their bullpen.  It’s simply not realistic.  And when you factor in a strict operating budget, it’s going to be even more challenging to have Dodgers like rotation depth.  We should have signed some guys to minor league deals though.  Fully agree there.

[caulfield12]

18 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I think you’re missing my point.  Most of the guys in the $8M to $10M aren’t going to sign up for a bullpen role and be seventh in the pecking order behind Giolito, Lynn, Cease, Keuchel, Rodon, & Kopech heading into last season.  They took roles in which they had a shot at immediate starting roles.  I fully agree with you that we need more guys able to jump into the rotation and eat innings, but practically no teams can afford multiple $10M starters in their bullpen.  It’s simply not realistic.  And when you factor in a strict operating budget, it’s going to be even more challenging to have Dodgers like rotation depth.  We should have signed some guys to minor league deals though.  Fully agree there.

You could have afforded Rodon and had another $15ish million to split between two veteran starters for the same sticker price as Keuchel.  

[Eminor3rd]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I think you’re missing my point.  Most of the guys in the $8M to $10M aren’t going to sign up for a bullpen role and be seventh in the pecking order behind Giolito, Lynn, Cease, Keuchel, Rodon, & Kopech heading into last season.  They took roles in which they had a shot at immediate starting roles.  I fully agree with you that we need more guys able to jump into the rotation and eat innings, but practically no teams can afford multiple $10M starters in their bullpen.  It’s simply not realistic.  And when you factor in a strict operating budget, it’s going to be even more challenging to have Dodgers like rotation depth.  We should have signed some guys to minor league deals though.  Fully agree there.

I see what you're saying, but with Rodon and Cease as question marks going into 2021, it should have appeared that there were certainly roles to be had. I admit it's hard to remember what a total lottery ticket Rodon was, but he was almost in MiLB deal territory. There was no chance Kopech was going to be a starter in 2021, and Lopez looked cooked.

Now, with Cease established, Lopez looking better, and Kopech probably ready to take a shot at the rotation, it may be tougher to make that case this year.

[ChiSox59]

19 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Seven deep of credible starting options is the standard if you want to be able to survive the season and have a solid rotation available. It's why I proposed getting younger studs like Pablo Lopez, Tony Gonsolin, perhaps using the savings of trading off the high priced veterans and sign another top starter like Robbie Ray. Coupled with Giolito, Cease, and Kopech, you have a tremendous young pitching core which will extend the window, and the depth to absorb one or two major injuries the Sox were fortunate to avoid this season.

Eloy was the one core player I proposed trading, because he doesn't have the desire, nor likely the ability, to contribute consistently at the DH role, and you can get solid value for him now. Coupled with Mercedes, I believe Kim Ng would love to acquire those two players, as she has tons of pitching but little in terms of hitters.

Lynn also holds a lot of trade value know, he will likely regress between health and age. The Dodgers are likely one of the few, if any. other teams willing to take on $16M for Kimbrel (and if not, eat the $2M and move on). With Lux and Gallo two solid LH bats, you improve the lineup against RHP, and the pitchers will also benefit with having catchers able to block sliders in the dirt, catching plays at the plate. A new manager would implement modern defensive alignments, and will lay off the CS failed Hit and Runs, the wasted runs playing the infield in early in games, the poor defensive injury prone LFer and finally field a credible RF.

It would be difficult to pull off all of the moves, but at the same time it illustrates how keeping, not trading young cost controlled players is the key to creating and lengthening a long term competitive window. The Sox have moved in the opposite direction via their trades and signings the past two seasons, and have severely restricted flexibility while reducing their window.

Hitters $79.4M + Pitchers $67.0M = $146.4M

SS Anderson (Age July 1, 2022 29; 2022 actual/projected salary $9.5M) 3B Moncada (27 $13.8) # 1B Abreu (35, $19.7) RF Gallo (28 $9.5)^ CF Robert (24 $6.0) DH Sheets (26 $0.6) ^C Contreras (30 $9.0) LF Vaughn (24 $0.6) 2B Lux (24 $0.6)^

Bench: Gomes (34 $3.5), Engel (30 $2.0), Garcia (31 $4.0), Gonzalez (25 $0.6).

SP: Giolito (27, $8.3), Ray (30, $30.0), Pablo Lopez (26, $2.5), Kopech (26, $0.6), Cease (26, $0.6), Gonsolin (27, $0.6).

RP: Hendriks (33, $13.3), Bummer (28, $2.5), Crochet (23, $0.6M), Reynaldo Lopez (28, $2.0), Ruiz (27, $0.6), Free Agent TBD (30, $3.0), Free Agent TBD (30, $3.0)

Trades:

• Eloy and Mercedes to Miami for Pablo Lopez.
• Lynn, Keuchel and Kimbrel to Los Angeles N.L. for Gavin Lux and Tony Gonsolin.
• Grandal to New York A.L. for Gallo.
• Burger, Collins, prospects to Chicago N.L. for Willson Contreras.

LOLZ

[South Side Hit Men]

7 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Lynn is his grandal of the pitchers. Been talking about how fat and worthless Lynn is for months now.

Perhaps he's satisfied with almost getting through four innings, giving up 6 runs in October. Limping through the second half with a sore knee that can't hold up under his enormous weight. Getting ejected from games due to anger with his knee.

Hopefully for Sox fans footing $38M, he comes to camp fit and able to pitch into October the next two seasons. Improve on his 12 + White Sox Playoff ERA. It's possible with the right approach and dedication to returning to health which will allow him to pitch effectively in October.

Edited October 30, 2021 by South Side Hit Men

[Chisoxfn]

I do think Gallo makes some sense as a buy low candidate. I don’t like his style but he brings power and solid defense at a position of need from the left side. I’d like him and a surprise big move for 2B. 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Chisoxfn said:

I do think Gallo makes some sense as a buy low candidate. I don’t like his style but he brings power and solid defense at a position of need from the left side. I’d like him and a surprise big move for 2B. 

So Baez, Story or trade? 

Unfortunately, more high K hitters won't change the complexion of the lineup much...but we're definitely not going after the Big 3 FA middle infielders. 

[hi8is]

Can I have Nick Madrigal, please?

[Dick Allen]

TMZ reports Luis Robert has tricked out his $1 million Lambo with a $10k glow in the dark wrap.

 

I'm guessing he is going to need a financial advisor. 

Edited October 31, 2021 by Dick Allen

[SCCWS]

We have to fill 2B and RF. But watching this year's WS and even the ALCS,, the bullpen staff is really key.   Braves / Astros  have use 12-11-10-11 pitchers in the games played.  Last 2 games have been 3-2  and 2-0  using the 12 and 11. Now  the lack of DH does have a minimal effect. In Boston/Houston, 12-10-10-10-16. Some of the games may be inflated w some blowouts. 

But it is safe to say, a team this year will use at least 5 pitchers per game while still playing back to back games which limits some pitchers in the pen.    Although it backfired w Kimbrel, maybe  Hahn had the right idea at the trade deadline. 

Also don't forget defense when we add at 2B and RF

Edited October 31, 2021 by SCCWS

[hi8is]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

I'm guessing he is going to need a financial advisor. 

1 down… 87 to go. He’s doomed.

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, hi8is said:

1 down… 87 to go. He’s doomed.

Keep him away from Cespedes’ car collection…

[caulfield12]

33 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

We have to fill 2B and RF. But watching this year's WS and even the ALCS,, the bullpen staff is really key.   Braves / Astros  have use 12-11-10-11 pitchers in the games played.  Last 2 games have been 3-2  and 2-0  using the 12 and 11. Now  the lack of DH does have a minimal effect. In Boston/Houston, 12-10-10-10-16. Some of the games may be inflated w some blowouts. 

But it is safe to say, a team this year will use at least 5 pitchers per game while still playing back to back games which limits some pitchers in the pen.    Although it backfired w Kimbrel, maybe  Hahn had the right idea at the trade deadline. 

Also don't forget defense when we add at 2B and RF

But what are the Braves and Astros spending on their pens…?  Less than the White Sox at season’s end, even if you combine the two together.  

Minor league development/draft/trade.

[hi8is]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

Keep him away from Cespedes’ car collection…

Maybe if I ask really nice… he’ll buy me a pony.

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, hi8is said:

Maybe if I ask really nice… he’ll buy me a pony.

Maybe track down the guy who spent $8000 on Shiba Inu now worth almost $5 billion on paper.

Could buy the White Sox twice over if he didn’t crash the market selling them.

Edited October 31, 2021 by caulfield12

[hi8is]

3 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Maybe track down the guy who spent $8000 on Shiba Inu now worth almost $5 billion on paper.

Could buy the White Sox twice over if he didn’t crash the market selling them.

Yea - maybe that guy can buy me a baseball team.

[Dick Allen]

44 minutes ago, hi8is said:

1 down… 87 to go. He’s doomed.

After taxes and his people take their cut, I would imagine he doesn't have another 87 to spend. Plus if he spends that on 1 car, I would think he spends a ton of other things. And I would think the White Sox can't be too thrilled. Guys don't usually spend 1 million on a Lambo to go 45 in a 35, and if you have ever driven in Soutb Florida with all the older drivers, it can be a little hairy just driving normally.

[South Side Hit Men]

[Two-Gun Pete]

1 hour ago, SCCWS said:

Although it backfired w Kimbrel, maybe  Hahn had the right idea at the trade deadline. 

Ok, I have questions:

1. A good FO understands both "talent" and "fit" in players, teams, and coaches. Although Kimbrel had talent once upon a time, where was the fit? Where was the fit for multiple expensive, veteran closers, one who has never "setup?" Where was the fit with a coaching staff that does not use modern bullpen management?

2. A good FO understands life cycles of players/teams and windows. Where was this team in terms of the competitive window, the beginning, middle, or end of the window? If this team is in the beginning of the window, was it wise to squander a decade of control over 2 young players? And where is Kimbrel, relative to HIS age cycle?

3. A good FO understands the financial model of their game and their team. How, exactly, does it make any fucking sense to squander THIS MUCH cash on a bullpen, when there are dire needs elsewhere? How does it make sense to squander money on Kimbrel, while Keuchel is aging out, Rodon will sign elsewhere, and the cupboard looks bare for MiLB SPs in this org?

4. A good FO understands the need to self-scout, and to be HONEST as to where their team is, relative to their enemies. Where, exactly is/was this team, compared to Houston, or Tampa, or LAD? Even if Kimbrel was LIGHTS OUT, was HE ALONE going to make this team better than Houston, or Tampa, or LAD?

 

I think that's it for now. Thanks in advance for your views on the above.