Offseason Thread

[A-Train to 35th]

On 10/12/2021 at 5:56 PM, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

LOL this is absolutely amazing.

Sox are in the middle of their window with a very talented roster. Playoffs are a crap shoot. Season was disappointing but blowing it up is absolutely 100000% not the answer. Anyone stating so likes rebuilding and not actually winning baseball games which is just disturbing.

 Ignore the troll

[hi8is]

47 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I don’t like it when people talk out of both sides of their mouth because the front office needs their brave defense. He was clearly shilling for them at the time and wanted us all to stop calling him out on it.

 

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

If you go back to his posts, I and others were saying that putting him in the bullpen would probably lock him there forever because there wouldn’t be enough innings. He was insisting that they would have to get him to 100, 110 innings, probably not 120, if they wanted him to start in 2022. I can link those if you’d like. He then picked 80-90 as a range so unbelievably low that even he would have to admit they locked him permanently into the bullpen if they didn’t get to it. They missed even that, and then took no steps (like giving him extra starts or time in the minors) to correct it. 

So I’m sorry, by our physical trainers standards, Kopech isn’t ready to be a starter next year and putting him in the bullpen was a “mistake”.

I would agree he isn't ready to be a full time starter next year. It was due to his injury that limited his innings this year. 70 innings is not enough to pitch 200 innings next year. He should probably be at no more than 160.

I disagree that this was the plan and I still disagree that he is stuck in the bullpen.

And it's physical therapist not physical trainer. I worked hard for the degree and license. 

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

If you go back to his posts, I and others were saying that putting him in the bullpen would probably lock him there forever because there wouldn’t be enough innings. He was insisting that they would have to get him to 100, 110 innings, probably not 120, if they wanted him to start in 2022. I can link those if you’d like. He then picked 80-90 as a range so unbelievably low that even he would have to admit they locked him permanently into the bullpen if they didn’t get to it. They missed even that, and then took no steps (like giving him extra starts or time in the minors) to correct it. 

So I’m sorry, by our physical trainers standards, Kopech isn’t ready to be a starter next year and putting him in the bullpen was a “mistake”.

I would agree he isn't ready to be a full time starter next year. It was due to his injury that limited his innings this year. 70 innings is not enough to pitch 200 innings next year. He should probably be at no more than 160.

I disagree that this was the plan and I still disagree that he is stuck in the bullpen.

And it's physical therapist not physical trainer. I worked hard for the degree and license. 

 

Sorry, Don't know why this repeated.

Edited October 14, 2021 by ptatc

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

3 hours ago, raBBit said:

He's not alone. I am glad to have Grandal. I believe the  broadcast for one of the games in Houston said it was his 6th straight postseason. Three different teams. I thought the way Grandal hit after April would chill some people out but they focus on the D. Which could be better.

Could be better? Lol. That’s putting it lightly. Great, he’s made the postseason a bunch of times but he was also benched by the Dodgers in the postseason. Kinda seems like the bat doesn’t play well enough in the postseason to overcome his defensive flaws.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

3 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

Yeah, he’s not perfect. No doubt about it. But he’s one of the best offensive catchers in the game. The running game isn’t really his fault, tho he’s leaves something to be desired defensively as many catchers that can hit do. But he’s not suddenly becoming a backup catcher in 2022 like some here are going to push for all offseason. 

In the playoffs he absolutely should be

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

I don’t like it when people talk out of both sides of their mouth because the front office needs their brave defense. He was clearly shilling for them at the time and wanted us all to stop calling him out on it.

You couldn't be more wrong. You can have any opinion you want. I have no idea why I would be "shilling" for anyone.  I'm only speaking my opinion on physically what the pitchers can and can't handle.

I've never talked out of both sides of my mouth. Opinions can change as injuries and other factors come into play. However I will stick to what I said earlier. If the Sox wanted him to be a full time starter next year he needed to be at 80-90 innings.  I still think that was their plan. It makes sense physically. Unfortunately,  he got hurt and didn't make those innings. Not by plan though.

Since he did not get those innings due to injury he should not be a full time starter.

I fail to see anywhere in any of these discussions where I contradicted myself. If it was the mishandled part, I still don't think he was mishandled. I think it was a good plan that failed due to the injury. If that is what you are referring to then so be it.

[hi8is]

11 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I would agree he isn't ready to be a full time starter next year. It was due to his injury that limited his innings this year. 70 innings is not enough to pitch 200 innings next year. He should probably be at no more than 160.

I disagree that this was the plan and I still disagree that he is stuck in the bullpen.

And it's physical therapist not physical trainer. I worked hard for the degree and license. 

 

Sorry, Don't know why this repeated.

Don’t worry about shortsighted opinions.

[hi8is]

12 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I would agree he isn't ready to be a full time starter next year. It was due to his injury that limited his innings this year. 70 innings is not enough to pitch 200 innings next year. He should probably be at no more than 160.

I disagree that this was the plan and I still disagree that he is stuck in the bullpen.

And it's physical therapist not physical trainer. I worked hard for the degree and license. 

 

Sorry, Don't know why this repeated.

Don’t worry about shortsighted opinions.
 

not sorry, repeated intentionally for emphasis.

[Tony]

3 hours ago, ptatc said:

Makes sense. I would like to see the run differential as well to see where they stand. 

Decided to look more into this. I think RD can be slightly misleading, especially when teams only play a 6 game series in a season. 

Record against .500 teams in 2021:

White Sox: 27-29

Giants: 35-28

Dodgers: 35-27

Rays: 48-42

Astros: 45-32

Red Sox: 46-48

Yankees: 48-43

Brewers: 32-36

So a handful of teams that were considered "very good" had records under .500 against the better teams in the league. But the "elite" seemed to have fairly impressive records against winning teams. 

The Sox need to get better against better teams, no other way around it. 

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

At the very least we’ve seen how much your word is worth.

So you think that an injury and missing innings isn't a cause to change the the expectation for next year?

I disagree the lack of innings changes what should be expected just like his previous history didn't allow for a great number of innings this year.

[ptatc]

2 minutes ago, Tony said:

Decided to look more into this. I think RD can be slightly misleading, especially when teams only play a 6 game series in a season. 

Record against .500 teams in 2021:

White Sox: 27-29

Giants: 35-28

Dodgers: 35-27

Rays: 48-42

Astros: 45-32

Red Sox: 46-48

Yankees: 48-43

Brewers: 32-36

So a handful of teams that were considered "very good" had records under .500 against the better teams in the league. But the "elite" seemed to have fairly impressive records against winning teams. 

The Sox need to get better against better teams, no other way around it. 

No doubt. It's just interesting to see the comparison and judge it that way.

[ptatc]

4 minutes ago, hi8is said:

Don’t worry about shortsighted opinions.
 

not sorry, repeated intentionally for emphasis.

Its not short sighted opinions. Everyone is entitled to opinions. He is saying that I contradicted myself somewhere and I just don't see it.

[caulfield12]

8 minutes ago, ptatc said:

You couldn't be more wrong. You can have any opinion you want. I have no idea why I would be "shilling" for anyone.  I'm only speaking my opinion on physically what the pitchers can and can't handle.

I've never talked out of both sides of my mouth. Opinions can change as injuries and other factors come into play. However I will stick to what I said earlier. If the Sox wanted him to be a full time starter next year he needed to be at 80-90 innings.  I still think that was their plan. It makes sense physically. Unfortunately,  he got hurt and didn't make those innings. Not by plan though.

Since he did not get those innings due to injury he should not be a full time starter.

I fail to see anywhere in any of these discussions where I contradicted myself. If it was the mishandled part, I still don't think he was mishandled. I think it was a good plan that failed due to the injury. If that is what you are referring to then so be it.

I guess it's really going to come down to whether he would have been better off working on all his secondary pitches and throwing 4-5-6 innings per start (ramping up) in Charlotte in August and September after the division race was basically over...also, with the minor league season extending an additional month (due to the later start this year), it would have been the perfect opportunity to do so.

[hi8is]

2 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Its not short sighted opinions. Everyone is entitled to opinions. He is saying that I contradicted myself somewhere and I just don't see it.

When someone is expressing an opinion that’s fine - but when they’re attacking you at the same time that’s nonsense.

Welcome to the off-season. ?

[ptatc]

2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

I guess it's really going to come down to whether he would have been better off working on all his secondary pitches and throwing 4-5-6 innings per start (ramping up) in Charlotte in August and September after the division race was basically over...also, with the minor league season extending an additional month (due to the later start this year), it would have been the perfect opportunity to do so.

That is a valid question. He would not have thrown more innings but they definitely could have distributed them differently in meaningless games in the minors.  Personally, I don't think it would have mattered much bit it's a good discussion.

[Tony]

9 minutes ago, ptatc said:

No doubt. It's just interesting to see the comparison and judge it that way.

...How would you judge it? 

[bmags]

I really adding stuff like this just in training would help just as much as talent diversification. I know there isn't one cool trick to solve everything, but sox hitters have made adjustments before. But a lot of what they are asked is just approach and selection. I think we have some incredibly athletic hitters that could get much better vs. offspeed pitches

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/giants/how-nasty-sliders-help-mike-yastrzemski-giants-games

I'm sure TLR will get right on this.

[ptatc]

2 minutes ago, Tony said:

...How would you judge it? 

As I said just from the records they need to improve on it. But looking at the run differential give a little better perspective on the degree. The run differential and the amount of time lost to injury involved gives a little hope that the difference isn't quite as drastic as the record shows.

A little optimism for next year, I admit. Maybe grasping at straws to feel better about the off season.

[Tony]

8 minutes ago, ptatc said:

As I said just from the records they need to improve on it. But looking at the run differential give a little better perspective on the degree. The run differential and the amount of time lost to injury involved gives a little hope that the difference isn't quite as drastic as the record shows.

A little optimism for next year, I admit. Maybe grasping at straws to feel better about the off season.

ptac, I think there is plenty of reason to be "optimistic" about next season. The White Sox have a very good core. That didn't change because of the playoff failure. But thus far, during this "window," the Sox are 2-5 in the playoffs and quite frankly didn't look very competitive against the class of the AL right now in the Astros. A team like the Rays seemed to run into some bad luck and bounces against the Red Sox......the White Sox got steamrolled. 

The core is there. But it doesn't seem like that's going to take them to the World Series. They need to improve in other areas. They can't just blame injuries and bad luck in 2021, and come back with the exact same core. There is no reason to expect different results in 2022 with the same group. 

[ptatc]

3 minutes ago, Tony said:

ptac, I think there is plenty of reason to be "optimistic" about next season. The White Sox have a very good core. That didn't change because of the playoff failure. But thus far, during this "window," the Sox are 2-5 in the playoffs and quite frankly didn't look very competitive against the class of the AL right now in the Astros. A team like the Rays seemed to run into some bad luck and bounces against the Red Sox......the White Sox got steamrolled. 

The core is there. But it doesn't seem like that's going to take them to the World Series. They need to improve in other areas. They can't just blame injuries and bad luck in 2021, and come back with the exact same core. There is no reason to expect different results in 2022 with the same group. 

No doubt. They do need to get better against better teams. However losing the ayers they did for a large portion of time did change the season. Not so much the playoffs as most of those were back. 

I would expect different results with the same group as most are young and will naturally continue to improve. Plus the missing so much time from Jimenez,  Robert and Grandal.

That being said I would really like them to add at least one high OBP player to either 2B or RF. They have power but an offense that relies on that is inconsistent Ala the Cubs.

I think with the full season played this year the injuries will not be big of a factor for the entire league. 

[fathom]

They just seemed slow in the postseason. They have a lot of good athletes, but my god only Cesar Hernandez seemed to get down the line quickly.  The injuries seemed to sap Robert, Timmy and Engel of any consistent burst.  I can think of one game over last few months where Timmy looked to have plus speed.

[Tony]

17 minutes ago, fathom said:

They just seemed slow in the postseason. They have a lot of good athletes, but my god only Cesar Hernandez seemed to get down the line quickly.  The injuries seemed to sap Robert, Timmy and Engel of any consistent burst.  I can think of one game over last few months where Timmy looked to have plus speed.

What do the Sox clearly do better than the Astros? Seems like Houston plays a better defense, has a deeper offense, and their starting staff was just better than what Sox put out on the mound. 

They were outclassed. Yes, it’s one series…but when you look at what the Sox did against above .500 teams, the picture becomes more clear that they aren’t currently in that elite tier as of now. 

[ptatc]

3 minutes ago, Tony said:

What do the Sox clearly do better than the Astros? Seems like Houston plays a better defense, has a deeper offense, and their starting staff was just better than what Sox put out on the mound. 

They were outclassed. Yes, it’s one series…but when you look at what the Sox did against above .500 teams, the picture becomes more clear that they aren’t currently in that elite tier as of now. 

I'll reserve judgement until I see the Astros against the other teams in the playoffs. There is a reason some of the "experts" picked the Sox to win. There is a great deal of talent there.

[fathom]

3 minutes ago, Tony said:

What do the Sox clearly do better than the Astros? Seems like Houston plays a better defense, has a deeper offense, and their starting staff was just better than what Sox put out on the mound. 

They were outclassed. Yes, it’s one series…but when you look at what the Sox did against above .500 teams, the picture becomes more clear that they aren’t currently in that elite tier as of now. 

Sox throw harder, that’s about it. And I agree about not being at the elite tier, and god knows the Yankees and Jays will keep spending to get to that level.  I still can’t stop thinking about how Eloy should be Yordan like and Yoan was supposed to be Kyle Tucker at the plate.  WAR doesn’t tell the whole story about how disappointing Yoan has been as an offensive force.