Offseason Thread

[hankchifan]

12 hours ago, bmags said:

Yes, should not be hard to add a reasonable 2b at the deadline. The 2b additions did reasonably well

Using OPS+ since fangraphs maddeningly never splits out team additions like baseball ref does

Harrison on As - 79

Escobar on Brewers - 113

Turner on Dodgers - 152

Schoop (unmoved) - 95 ( ish)

Iglesias on Red Sox - 142

Baez on Mets - 141

Frazier on Padres - 86

Story (unmoved) - 120 (ish)

Hernandez on White Sox - 69 (nice)

Red sox acquired Schwarber (154 OPS+) for their 19th ranked relief prospect and picked up Iglesias off of waivers. Better scouting is needed, but how much are we willing to pay? The true upgrades will require substantial cost. If they go for a top guy like Semien, I'm all ears. But if you were to throw a bucket of escobar, leury, iglesias, galvis, etc in a bowl, I wouldn't say with certainty anyone provides meaningful upgrades over what the sox got out of Leury this year. And I think it's reasonable Romy could pace that on 550k. And if he doesn't, go trade for Jose Iglesias again, nobody seems to want his very good production plus defense ever.

 

Schwarber would have been a good addition.  Lefty power, could play outfield and DH. Postseason experience.  Iglesias would have been better than Cesar. Most any deal would have been better than the Kimbrel deal,

[hankchifan]

16 hours ago, Jerry McNertney said:

Just imagine having Kyle Schwarber as the Sox DH. (White Sox, not Red)

Agree. He gets the ball up in the air often. Lefty power and can also play the outfield. Cubs were stupid to let him go.

[hi8is]

3 hours ago, hankchifan said:

Cubs are stupid.

Fixed ?

[poppysox]

17 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

Bottom line - the team didn't play good enough. They actually hit for a high average - but couldn't hit with enough power/get big hit when it mattered. Bullpen was a train wreck and starting rotation didn't deliver.  They were on the cusp and not near a bad as the series indicated but the horses that they saw all season didn't show up against the Astros, who were hot.  

Astros on the other hand had 2 electric starts from there ace and a TON of timely hits and played great defense.  Everything exasperated things but I wouldn't go as far as saying if you played those series another 5 times that the Sox lose 5 of them...maybe Houston takes 3 and the Sox take 2.  Bottom line - guys didn't show up. It happens and the team needs to learn from this with the good news being the roster still has a ton of talent, many of which is still trending in the "up" direction vs. stable or down. There will obviously be losses too...ROdon was amazing and he wont' replicate but I'd also bet Keuchel isn't as bad either and having Robert/Eloy hopefully healthy is a big boost too.  

I'm excited for next year and curious to see what moves they actually do make.  Still hate the Kimbrel move but whatever, teams will make bad moves and that doesn't take away from how good this team is and that they absolutely should contend again.  

This is a well-thought-out and well-written post.

[Two-Gun Pete]

19 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

Bottom line - the team didn't play good enough.

They were on the cusp and not near a bad as the series indicated but the horses that they saw all season didn't show up against the Astros, who were hot.  

 

 Still hate the Kimbrel move but whatever, teams will make bad moves and that doesn't take away from how good this team is and that they absolutely should contend again.  

While I'll add my voice to those who said this was a well-thought post, I don't think it was the bottom line. I agree with Balta, in that this was a multi-system failure:

1. The FO measurably made the 2021 team worse, while reducing financial flexibility for 2022, while erasing the future opportunity to either use Madrigal/Heuer/Pilkington for this team, or for future trades. In sum, they fucked up the short term, mid term, and long term. Even if Kimbrel was "lights out," he BY HIMSELF wasn't going to be enough to close the gap between our SOX and the other contenders, IMO.

2. The coaching staff fucked up the overall season strategy WRT HFA/getting the team hot for the playoffs. They fucked up the strategy WRT setting the rotation for the series, and they fucked up virtually every tactical decision in the series. The bench coach and pitching coach HAVE TO up their "in game" games, because TLR ain't getting younger/better; this is akin to Penn State having Paterno as "head coach" in title, but the assistants did all the work in his final seasons there.

3. And yes, the players didn't perform, in part because of #s 1 & 2. If it was "just" the players, then better players solve the issues, but I don't see this as being the only problem right now.

So yeah, the players didn't play.  But, the "adults in the room" (FO/Coaches) shit their pants as well. And this is concerning, as we look to the future. Here's hoping that some of this gets unfucked.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Two-Gun Pete

[Superstar Lamar]

any thoughts on trading Grandal?

We would be selling high, after his strong second half.  He has a big contract, but it is only for two more years, so it shouldn't be daunting to even budget minded teams.

Replace him with a more defensive minded catcher, who will obviously be cheaper.

Then they would really have to find a veteran LH hitter for either RF or 2B.  

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

5 minutes ago, Superstar Lamar said:

any thoughts on trading Grandal?

We would be selling high, after his strong second half.  He has a big contract, but it is only for two more years, so it shouldn't be daunting to even budget minded teams.

Replace him with a more defensive minded catcher, who will obviously be cheaper.

Then they would really have to find a veteran LH hitter for either RF or 2B.  

I am absolutely open to it if you can get good value.

[Two-Gun Pete]

11 minutes ago, Superstar Lamar said:

any thoughts on trading Grandal?

We would be selling high, after his strong second half.  He has a big contract, but it is only for two more years, so it shouldn't be daunting to even budget minded teams.

Replace him with a more defensive minded catcher, who will obviously be cheaper.

Then they would really have to find a veteran LH hitter for either RF or 2B.  

I think that if you trade Grandal, the lineup gets far worse, in that we don't have many OBP-types that can draw walks and work a count.

If you an find a positionally appropriate for this roster, LH, OBP type, then I'm on board. We've simply got too many free swinging RH types that are fun when they make contact, but infuriating vs the trashstros. 

[bmags]

The excitement over getting a veteran LH hitting 2b or RF will be shortlived after viewing the list.

Grandal offers plus LHH out of (ostensibly) the catcher position. Sheets, if the sox believe in him, provides DH LH power.

The sox have two options to diversify offensively:

- Add players with strong chase rates, bringing in much more discipline to our hitting

- Add more left handed hitters

- Ideally do this with defense

For RF and 2b, the available players bringing plus defense and strong discipline (notice, they still K, they just don't chase) would be Mark Canha and using Chris Taylor as a 2b, and relying on a Romy to also be a leury. 

Chris Taylor Ks a lot, he walks a lot, he doesn't crush the ball but he makes good contact. He also doesn't hit ground balls a lot, only 35%.

Mark Canha Ks less, walks more (12%). doesn't chase, and definitely has polarizing defensive metrics but OAA has him +2 in RF. He hits fewer Ground balls.

Both of them are right handed

Obviously, Eminor3d's RF he mentioned from JApan fits the bill in many of these, hopefully.

Lefthanded hitters?

- Well for 2b, you have a bunch of switch hitters. Escobar, Hernandez, Leury Garcia, Freddy Galvis. Basically Leury was the best hitter vs. RHP. Galvis, Escobar, Hernandez should be defensive upgrades. Jonathan Villar could play 2b, if you'd like that. 

- Outfield? You have Michael Conforto, the young...bounce back candidate. Joc Pederson, whom if you hated him for his splits maybe you like that he's average vs both this year?

Now, starling marte does crush RHP despite being RH. But he's 33, and he would be the sox probably last big money spend if they get him.

Who do you feel good about getting you Grandals power, walks and switch hitting? Who is the catcher you are signing?

 

[ChiSox59]

39 minutes ago, Superstar Lamar said:

any thoughts on trading Grandal?

We would be selling high, after his strong second half.  He has a big contract, but it is only for two more years, so it shouldn't be daunting to even budget minded teams.

Replace him with a more defensive minded catcher, who will obviously be cheaper.

Then they would really have to find a veteran LH hitter for either RF or 2B.  

Sox are better off moving Grandal to DH most of the time and signing another regular catcher than trading him.  He quite literally excels offensively at nearly everything this Sox lineup needs.  Trading him is robbing Peter to pay Paul.  

That said, the Sox aren't trading Grandal. 

[ron883]

6 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Sox are better off moving Grandal to DH most of the time and signing another regular catcher than trading him.  He quite literally excels offensively at nearly everything this Sox lineup needs.  Trading him is robbing Peter to pay Paul.  

That said, the Sox aren't trading Grandal. 

What do we do with Vaughn and Sheets if Grandal is the DH most of the time?

[ChiSox59]

16 minutes ago, ron883 said:

What do we do with Vaughn and Sheets if Grandal is the DH most of the time?

I am not saying you actually make Grandal the DH most of the time.  It makes no sense.  But subtracting him from the roster makes less sense when he quite literally excels and everything the Sox lineup Sox lineup is terrible at.  We need more guys who get on base, work counts, hit for power and bat from the left side, not less. 

Also - I have said it before and I will say it again, Sheets was a nice story in 21 and hopefully is a useful bat for the Sox moving forward.  But I am not making decisions to sharpie him into the lineup.  Eloy should be primary DH and Vaughn should be in LF.  They should sign a RF (cough...Conforto...cough) that does the aforementioned things this lineup needs.  Sheets can work his way into the lineup on good matchups, injury fill ins, etc.  I am far from convinced he is suddenly a 30 homer guy in the big leagues.  He is also a DH only guy on a team with a fair share of guys that should DH occasionally, so while its great he does some things this team needs, he's not a guy I am building around. 

[Two-Gun Pete]

23 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Sox are better off moving Grandal to DH most of the time and signing another regular catcher than trading him.  He quite literally excels offensively at nearly everything this Sox lineup needs.  Trading him is robbing Peter to pay Paul.  

That said, the Sox aren't trading Grandal. 

This is true. Grandal does everything this lineup needs. At the same time, Madrigal also did a lot of the things that this lineup needed, WRT taking a metric fuckton of pitches, being a pest, and getting on base.

I think it was illuminating that the team's record suffered when Madrigal & Grandal were out. We've got enough RH free swingers that suck when they don't make contact already.

 

The other side of the coin is that yes, if you DH Grandal more, what becomes of the pile of DHs that are here? I think this speaks to the lack of flexibility and variability in the roster. Given that we're in the window NOW, I'd rather trade away Sheets or Vaughn or Burger than Grandal right now, if a return is decent.

KW & RH have their work cut out for them. Here's hoping they don't shit their pants. Again.

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

This is true. Grandal does everything this lineup needs. At the same time, Madrigal also did a lot of the things that this lineup needed, WRT taking a metric fuckton of pitches, being a pest, and getting on base.

I think it was illuminating that the team's record suffered when Madrigal & Grandal were out. We've got enough RH free swingers that suck when they don't make contact already.

Yep.  Madrigal was a great fit in this lineup.  Stupid fucking trade.  But he's not a world beater and he's a Cub now.   Time to move on. ITs a trade the Sox can recover from if they stop making stupid fucking trades.  

Trading Eloy or Andrew Vaughn at this moment would qualify as stupid fucking trades. 

[bmags]

I was very nervous about conforto but I think that is a no brainer addition.

Realistically, cesar or leury are the most sensible 2b for us. They are good defensively. Cesar actually doesn't chase. He was so bad it was painful, but we really should have a switch hitter here, and he has the benefit over leury of not swinging at everything.

This solves problems without shooting us in the foot in another place.

[Two-Gun Pete]

7 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Yep.  Madrigal was a great fit in this lineup.  Stupid fucking trade.  But he's not a world beater and he's a Cub now.   Time to move on. ITs a trade the Sox can recover from if they stop making stupid fucking trades. 

Agreed. I think Madrigal is a ~2-ish WAR "just a guy" type. In a vacuum, he's not much. But, to THIS lineup, at the league minimum salary, he was ideal. IOW, he was more valuable to our SOX than he would be to other MLB teams.

And yes, we get frustrated seeing them scrimp and save and ID/acquire/extend core pieces during the rebuild. Then we get frustrated when they stoopidly trade for a guy who fucks your financial flexibility and who wouldn't (BY HIMSELF) get this team past the trashstros, even if he was lights out.

Yes, they can recover, but they made their own lives harder, for no good fucking reason.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Two-Gun Pete

[bmags]

scary as hell that former mets are the key to our improvement, however, I think soxtalk is right. 

conforto is a high obp lefthanded outfielder

And if they sign baez, there is a possibility of a buy low on Mcneil. I don't think that's likely, as he'd probably be 3b. But of potential 2b that provide what this lineup needs, man conforto/mcneil stick out.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

3 minutes ago, bmags said:

scary as hell that former mets are the key to our improvement, however, I think soxtalk is right. 

conforto is a high obp lefthanded outfielder

And if they sign baez, there is a possibility of a buy low on Mcneil. I don't think that's likely, as he'd probably be 3b. But of potential 2b that provide what this lineup needs, man conforto/mcneil stick out.

Those are the two i've wanted.

[southsider2k5]

Looking as his numbers last year Conforto was pretty mediocre.  What was wrong with him in 21?  Is this a red flag year, or is there something that is legitimately fixable?

[raBBit]

51 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

This is true. Grandal does everything this lineup needs. At the same time, Madrigal also did a lot of the things that this lineup needed, WRT taking a metric fuckton of pitches, being a pest, and getting on base.

 I think it was illuminating that the team's record suffered when Madrigal & Grandal were out. We've got enough RH free swingers that suck when they don't make contact already.

 

 The other side of the coin is that yes, if you DH Grandal more, what becomes of the pile of DHs that are here? I think this speaks to the lack of flexibility and variability in the roster. Given that we're in the window NOW, I'd rather trade away Sheets or Vaughn or Burger than Grandal right now, if a return is decent.

KW & RH have their work cut out for them. Here's hoping they don't shit their pants. Again.

On Madrigal "taking a metric fuckton of pitches" what is your source? Madrigal saw 3.76 P/PA. For all qualified hitters, that rate would have him at 109/136 players. Not exactly a "metric fuckton."

When Madrigal and Grandal were out, Robert and Eloy were also out. That was the month of July (Eloy came back last weekend of July). The month of July was the team's best offensive month (in terms of OPS). It was also their worst pitching month (in terms of ERA & OPS against). 

[bmags]

31 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Looking as his numbers last year Conforto was pretty mediocre.  What was wrong with him in 21?  Is this a red flag year, or is there something that is legitimately fixable?

He was really miserable in the first half, but he had a 6 week downtime with a hamstring injury. His power was just gone. WAs it because of that? I don't know. But his second-half was better, his slugging returned to .450. And through both slump and non-slump he kept a .340 obp. I don't know what the guy's market is, but I kinda see this as when the dodgers signed pollock. Feels like we really need this guy for this team.

[ChiSox59]

46 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Looking as his numbers last year Conforto was pretty mediocre.  What was wrong with him in 21?  Is this a red flag year, or is there something that is legitimately fixable?

First half was terrible.  Struggled with injuries.  Conforto was looking at an $100M deal 12 months ago.  Whoever signs him is going to get something between an amazing bargain or at worst, a player earning his keep if he can stay healthy.  Obviously, as with any player, injuries are a concern.  

IF, and its probably an big IF, the Sox can get Conforto on a 3-4 year deal around $15-17M AAV, its going to be a very nice piece and a good price. Even in a down year, he was well above average at getting on base.  Lifetime wRC+ of 124.   He's by far the best realistic fit on the FA market. 

[Chicago White Sox]

9 minutes ago, bmags said:

He was really miserable in the first half, but he had a 6 week downtime with a hamstring injury. His power was just gone. WAs it because of that? I don't know. But his second-half was better, his slugging returned to .450. And through both slump and non-slump he kept a .340 obp. I don't know what the guy's market is, but I kinda see this as when the dodgers signed pollock. Feels like we really need this guy for this team.

He’s about as perfect of a fit as we’re going to find for RF and I hope the Sox prioritize him accordingly this offseason.  I just pray that KW & Hahn don’t somehow use Cespedes & Colas as reason to go with a stopgap.  For years many of us thought one of the Adolfo, Rutherford, Gonzalez, & Basabe group would grab ahold of the RF job and we may be a few months away from all them being out of the organization.  Point is we can’t bank on non-blue chip prospects becoming everyday guys, even if you have multiple of them.  Go get Conforto and worry about finding space for the prospects later if need be.

[ChiSox59]

2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

He’s about as perfect of a fit as we’re going to find for RF and I hope the Sox prioritize him accordingly this offseason.  I just pray that KW & Hahn don’t somehow use Cespedes & Colas as reason to go with a stopgap.  For years many of us thought one of the Adolfo, Rutherford, Gonzalez, & Basabe group would grab ahold of the RF job and we may be a few months away from all them being out of the organization.  Point is we can’t bank on non-blue chip prospects becoming everyday guys, even if you have multiple of them.  Go get Conforto and worry about finding space for the prospects later if need be.

Conforto is also a guy, that if he bounces back to previous career norms, and Cespedes/Colas explode such that they need a spot in the OF everyday, you have the extreme luxury of deciding which super valuable piece to trade. 

[Chicago White Sox]

4 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Conforto is also a guy, that if he bounces back to previous career norms, and Cespedes/Colas explode such that they need a spot in the OF everyday, you have the extreme luxury of deciding which super valuable piece to trade. 

Agree.  Plus at some point Jose will retire / be let go, which would open up 1B for Vaughn and an OF spot for Cespedes / Colas.  And honestly, zero problem with those guys being depth for a couple of years and having to earn spots.  Would be an excellent problem to have.