maloney.adam Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 Trades and signings can still happen with no CBA @caulfield12 and @Balta1701. https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2021/08/even-with-no-cba-mlb-transactions-can-happen.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 1 hour ago, caulfield12 said: Can I cut and paste this quote for later in the offseason when they still haven’t offloaded him or signed any player to more than a $12.5 million/year contract due to “payroll concerns/flexibility” or hints they will make their needed changes in-season or at the All-Star Break? Hahn really had a good situation with Hernandez at $6 million before that became untenable. Because we have never succeeded under Hahn in FA in the position player market (unless you count international/Cuban free agents only)…so why would or should we suddenly expect that to change or improve? Yes, you can copy and paste this quote. The Sox aren’t going to pick up Kimbrel’s option and hold him into the regular season. It simply won’t happen. And they would never let it put their entire offseason on hold. Stop trying to be Jack Parkman. As for your comment about Hahn not succeeding in any position player market, that’s 100% not true as we signed Grandal. Hahn also made the largest bid to Wheeler, so there is a sweet spot where Hahn can land impact free agents. It just won’t ever be the truly elite guys that require massive multi year commitments, but that’s due to Jerry more than anything. Zero reason we can’t sign Conforto to a 4/$60M type contract unless Reinsdorf has capped our payroll below $170M next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 14 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: Yes, you can copy and paste this quote. The Sox aren’t going to pick up Kimbrel’s option and hold him into the regular season. It simply won’t happen. And they would never let it put their entire offseason on hold. Stop trying to be Jack Parkman. As for your comment about Hahn not succeeding in any position player market, that’s 100% not true as we signed Grandal. Hahn also made the largest bid to Wheeler, so there is a sweet spot where Hahn can land impact free agents. It just won’t ever be the truly elite guys that require massive multi year commitments, but that’s due to Jerry more than anything. Zero reason we can’t sign Conforto to a 4/$60M type contract unless Reinsdorf has capped our payroll below $170M next year. Please acknowledge that the white Sox will make zero moves and will end up with the exact same team 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 9 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said: Please acknowledge that the white Sox will make zero moves and will end up with the exact same team This actually would have been the MUCH better choice this past trade deadline...now we're just older and more expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 Just now, caulfield12 said: This actually would have been the MUCH better choice this past trade deadline...now we're just older and more expensive. I know Caulfield, time to rebuild it is futile to try and compete. There are ten teams better now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsox Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 29 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: Yes, you can copy and paste this quote. The Sox aren’t going to pick up Kimbrel’s option and hold him into the regular season. It simply won’t happen. And they would never let it put their entire offseason on hold. Stop trying to be Jack Parkman. As for your comment about Hahn not succeeding in any position player market, that’s 100% not true as we signed Grandal. Hahn also made the largest bid to Wheeler, so there is a sweet spot where Hahn can land impact free agents. It just won’t ever be the truly elite guys that require massive multi year commitments, but that’s due to Jerry more than anything. Zero reason we can’t sign Conforto to a 4/$60M type contract unless Reinsdorf has capped our payroll below $170M next year. We also signed James McCann as a FA, so there are at least two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 25 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: Yes, you can copy and paste this quote. The Sox aren’t going to pick up Kimbrel’s option and hold him into the regular season. It simply won’t happen. And they would never let it put their entire offseason on hold. Stop trying to be Jack Parkman. As for your comment about Hahn not succeeding in any position player market, that’s 100% not true as we signed Grandal. Hahn also made the largest bid to Wheeler, so there is a sweet spot where Hahn can land impact free agents. It just won’t ever be the truly elite guys that require massive multi year commitments, but that’s due to Jerry more than anything. Zero reason we can’t sign Conforto to a 4/$60M type contract unless Reinsdorf has capped our payroll below $170M next year. Let's see what performance we get out of Grandal during the next two seasons, when he's going to be critical to the team's success in the post-season... Considering we have nearly a decade of moves to look at now with Rick Hahn, I would hardly define that signing as an unparalleled success, especially if you consider what happened against the Astros, and the fact that the Dodgers refused to rely on him defensively when he was even younger. Catchers are not meant to maintain their level of play into their mid-30's unless they switch to 1B/DH. Somehow, Sal Perez and Posey managed career resurgences, but I would hardly count on it, anymore than we should expect a Lance Lynn repeat of his 2021 numbers. To me, Grandal and Jose Abreu are quite similar at this stage in their careers. They're not hurting the team, certainly, but they're not generating any surplus value due to their salaries and decline age curves hitting right in the heart of our window. I would give that signing a B/B-, considering the fact that it was the biggest overall contract in the history of the franchise. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 32 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: Yes, you can copy and paste this quote. The Sox aren’t going to pick up Kimbrel’s option and hold him into the regular season. It simply won’t happen. And they would never let it put their entire offseason on hold. Stop trying to be Jack Parkman. As for your comment about Hahn not succeeding in any position player market, that’s 100% not true as we signed Grandal. Hahn also made the largest bid to Wheeler, so there is a sweet spot where Hahn can land impact free agents. It just won’t ever be the truly elite guys that require massive multi year commitments, but that’s due to Jerry more than anything. Zero reason we can’t sign Conforto to a 4/$60M type contract unless Reinsdorf has capped our payroll below $170M next year. Jerry is correct IMO. Those 10-year commitments become backbreakers for the teams that give them. Teams do need to manage their budgets just like real people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 7 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said: I know Caulfield, time to rebuild it is futile to try and compete. There are ten teams better now Wherever we are in that Top 10, it's much closer to 10th than 1st at the current moment. How would you rank Tony LaRussa against those 10 managers? Which GM's would you take Rick Hahn over in that Top 10? They really have no choice but to make a high-risk trade OR spend money, and it's not Hahn's nature to do either one of those very well...except for extensions of his own players. For example, if Cease was the actually the 4th best pitcher in baseball, according to FG, then he would get a similar haul to the Sale, Q and Eaton trades. If you don't believe he is ever going to be a true TOR guy that you CONFIDENTLY start a Game 5 or Game 7, then of course you don't ever make that trade, but dealing guys like Burger or Sheets isn't going to move the meter, either. That's the kind of move the White Sox would have to make to shake things up, or trading Lucas Giolito. Otherwise, you're having to move Jimenez or Vaughn to get back anything of value, and I don't currently trust this front office to make the right decisions on either one of those guys, TBH. I actually do prefer not to live in a fantasy world where dealing the guys we don't want on the team like Keuchel and Kimbrel are going to replace spots on the roster that only FA spending can replace when our farm system is so bereft of talent ready to contribute at the big league level. At any rate, thanks for putting words in my mouth. Nowhere on this site this entire season have I mentioned rebuilding. I think you're confusing that mindset with Parkman posts. Until proven otherwise, though, assumptions about a 2022 payroll of $170-180 million are coming from where, exactly? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 (edited) 15 minutes ago, poppysox said: Jerry is correct IMO. Those 10-year commitments become backbreakers for the teams that give them. Teams do need to manage their budgets just like real people. Sure, and that's why we are always #2/3/4 for an A-Rod, a Japanese TOR starter, Harper, Machado, Wheeler, etc. It wouldn't be possible to avoid if we were in the West or East in either league. We have a MASSIVE advantage of being in the Central, where you can still win division titles with a mid-tier payroll because 80% of the teams are well below the White Sox in revenues/resources. Unfortunately, we're not as good as the Milwaukee, Minnesota, St. Louis or Cleveland front offices over the last twenty years...and we don't have anything approaching the Cubs' ability to spend near $200 million every year, either. Edited October 23, 2021 by caulfield12 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 (edited) So the Sox went through a total rebuild to have a 1 year window. It was 2021 or bust. The team will be better in 2022 than it was in 2021, breaking several Soxtalk posters hearts. Edited October 23, 2021 by Dick Allen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold's Leg Lift Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 I think the Sox are going to be aggressive early and they're gonna spend. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maloney.adam Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 (edited) Luis Robert and Eloy Jimenez are past their prime and TA and Moncada are toast. We’re so doomed aren’t we @hi8is? Lol Edited October 23, 2021 by maloney.adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 26 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Sure, and that's why we are always #2/3/4 for an A-Rod, a Japanese TOR starter, Harper, Machado, Wheeler, etc. It wouldn't be possible to avoid if we were in the West or East in either league. We have a MASSIVE advantage of being in the Central, where you can still win division titles with a mid-tier payroll because 80% of the teams are well below the White Sox in revenues/resources. Unfortunately, we're not as good as the Milwaukee, Minnesota, St. Louis or Cleveland front offices over the last twenty years...and we don't have anything approaching the Cubs' ability to spend near $200 million every year, either. Jerry could spend $200 million at the drop of a hat. He just doesn't think it's good business. I agree. Now when we get our new mega-rich owner that only cares about winning... we can pay the penalty tax etc. I don't think that is all that far off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 6 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said: I think the Sox are going to be aggressive early and they're gonna spend. Again the hire of Tony kind of painted them into a corner. JR drug the guy back into the dugout as the World Series winning move, as well as rectifying the Hawk Harrelson original sin. If he continues to flop, it really shines a dark light on Jerry and the organization that his handpicked guy which he neutered his own front office for, looked just as bad as the guy like fired. Jerry has to prop him up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 If he’s going to paint them into a corner, glad it’s the one where he needs to spend. That said, he always seems to gravitate toward spending on DHs and Closers, that’s where his ideal top contract tends to get top of market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 18 minutes ago, bmags said: If he’s going to paint them into a corner, glad it’s the one where he needs to spend. That said, he always seems to gravitate toward spending on DHs and Closers, that’s where his ideal top contract tends to get top of market. Except this was never the case historically until Robertson, Hendriks and Kimbrel. Wasted DH spending is altogether different story dating all the way back to 2010 and tge decision to push out Thome for Kotsay/rotating guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NWINFan Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 While I think it is important for the Sox make off-season moves, there is one vastly important factor. It is time to truly develop the young talent. Eloy, Cease, Kopech, Vaughn, Sheets, and, to an extent Moncada, need further developing. They all have talent, but there is no guarantee that they will become the major league players we hope they will be. The Rebuild is over. The future of the team is no longer in the minors. It is here, and they are the backbone of this team. We will see how truly good they are and how successful the Rebuild is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 18 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Except this was never the case historically until Robertson, Hendriks and Kimbrel. Wasted DH spending is altogether different story dating all the way back to 2010 and tge decision to push out Thome for Kotsay/rotating guys. Oh so three examples jfc caulfield 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, bmags said: Oh so three examples jfc caulfield Going back to Roberto Hernandez, we have never ever spent Top 3-5 money on a closer until recently…that’s the only way to survive with a mid-tier budget. The lone except until recently was Billy Koch, and everyone knows how well that worked out. Linebrink and Dotel/Linebrink two others, but for set-up when they were acquired. In fact, the entire draft philosophy for 2-3 years running was advanced collegiate position players and big arms that were supposedly destined for the big league pen…except there’s not much left to show for all those draft picks. Edited October 23, 2021 by caulfield12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boopa1219 Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said: Yes, you can copy and paste this quote. The Sox aren’t going to pick up Kimbrel’s option and hold him into the regular season. It simply won’t happen. And they would never let it put their entire offseason on hold. Stop trying to be Jack Parkman. As for your comment about Hahn not succeeding in any position player market, that’s 100% not true as we signed Grandal. Hahn also made the largest bid to Wheeler, so there is a sweet spot where Hahn can land impact free agents. It just won’t ever be the truly elite guys that require massive multi year commitments, but that’s due to Jerry more than anything. Zero reason we can’t sign Conforto to a 4/$60M type contract unless Reinsdorf has capped our payroll below $170M next year. When the Sox pay up for free agents, they typically perform as expected. Their problem has been when they try to take fliers and find “bargains”. I don’t think that was a Hahn problem, I think that had a lot to do with the Sox pro scouting, which for a long period of time was horrendous. They seemed to have gotten better in that department since Nick Hostetler has taken over that post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rey21 Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 Other than TA, Giolito, Robert, and Hendriks everyone should be available in trade talks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 (edited) 1 minute ago, Rey21 said: Other than TA, Giolito, Robert, and Hendriks everyone should be available in trade talks Abreu (never going to get traded as long JR is owner), Moncada, Kopech and Eloy are probably on this list too. Edited October 23, 2021 by Bob Sacamano Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Rey21 said: Other than TA, Giolito, Robert, and Hendriks everyone should be available in trade talks Giolito is nearing the same position the exact same position the Twins were in with Berrios and Buxton this season…and Moncada starts to look less and less attractive when he nears the ballooning back end of his deal. Edited October 23, 2021 by caulfield12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 2 hours ago, Kyyle23 said: Please acknowledge that the white Sox will make zero moves and will end up with the exact same team I just find it humorous that anyone thinks we’ll pick up Kimbrel’s option and completely freeze the roster. If there’s any chance that Craig is unmovable, then Hahn will simply pass on the option. I also love that people ignore than Kimbrel was 7th in fWAR amongst all relievers despite hit shitty tenure with us. If his bad two months were April & May instead of August & September, nobody would be questioning that teams would be interested in him on a 1/$16M deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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