raBBit Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) 22 minutes ago, tray said: i agree with so much of what you post here but I disagree with the narrative about Rick Hahn being ham-stringed by JR and KW on decisions about Managers. If he was, what self-respecting GM would hang around for years as a mere figure head and even a patsy? -The type of GM who put together a roster capable of being a perennial contender in his hometown where he is raising his family and living down the street from his parents. I didn't say Hahn was hamstrung about managers. I said the LaRussa managerial decision was made by Reinsdorf exclusive of Hahn's view. Hahn was not allowed to execute his plan for a managerial search nor select his preferred candidate. Hahn is a polished and uber-educated individual who has always done well in the media. He's hedging everything and has caveats for everything and rarely shows any emotion past excitement for the future. If you watch the press conference for Tony's hiring, you will see a version of Hahn that we have never seen before. That's everything you need to know. Let's take it back a bit - Did Hahn have ANY say on hiring Ventura and Renteria ? Did he have any input on whether and when they should be let go? -I can't speak to Ventura situation. He was hired before Hahn's title elevation IIRC as well. Hahn wanted Renteria out. Renteria was shown the door. What did Hahn do about the LaRoach, Eaton, and Sale insubordinations? Did he confront the players or even Ventura to deal with it? No, waited for KW to handle it. -Jimmy Rollins went to KW about LaRoche. Kenny is also a far more imposing presence than Hahn and played in the MLB. If you're setting the clubhouse straight on what is appropriate and what isn't I would think Kenny would be the more natural exec to handle that. I don't know that that is how it played out but that's just my view. -I am not sure what you're talking about with Eaton insubordinations and what is public but Hahn made a great trade for him, signed him to a great deal and traded him for a haul. I am not sure Hahn could have done anything better with the Eaton situation. Eaton's a douche but Sox have always liked his game. Not sure what they should have done differently other than not signing him for 2021. -Sale was moved to the bullpen when KW was GM and Sale called KW and told him to fuck off. I don't know if Hahn should have had Kenny 3 way him in so he could handle that but seems strange to be upset about that. -In general, Kenny Williams is the highest ranking and highest paid member of baseball operations. Why you think he should have no involvement in the organization is curious to me. Did Hahn ever consider Hinch as Manager and openly support a possible decision to hire him? Hinch is a guy who many feel should nave been banned from baseball? If Hinch was Hahn's choice, I am glad he was overruled. -Supposedly, Reinsdorf didn't want to hire a cheater but it was really more about him being set on LaRussa than anything else. Even though the story is Hinch hated the cheating in Houston and was against it I do think he should be held responsible. As opposed to LaRussa who created a cheating method while managing the Sox and was never penalized, dragged, held accountable, etc. Did Hahn have any say on trading Madrigal and Heuer for Kimbrel? Or was that JR's decision to go all in for one year? The trade was and is indefensible IMO. -That I don't know about but certainly Hahn had a say. He's the one of the calls with Hoyer. I know at the time, Hahn's side of the front office (more analytically inclined, Hostetler) wanted to draft Madrigal and the old school side (Kenny, older scouts) did not want to draft Madrigal. Regardless, they shopped Madrigal all winter and it was always the case that he was the piece of the core they would trade. Hahn said him and Kenny met in July and both came forward with which player on the market they believed would make the biggest impact in the playoffs. They both said Kimbrel. I hope JR turns the reins over to his children or another ownership group and they reorganize the Front Office. Clean house, including Rick Hahn. -If the Sox let go of Hahn, he would quickly be hired elsewhere. I do share the hope the ownership changes though. Edited October 20, 2021 by raBBit 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kleedawg Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 32 minutes ago, tray said: i agree with so much of what you post here but I disagree with the narrative about Rick Hahn being ham-stringed by JR and KW on decisions about Managers. If he was, what self-respecting GM would hang around for years as a mere figure head and even a patsy? Let's take it back a bit - Did Hahn have ANY say on hiring Ventura and Renteria ? Did he have any input on whether and when they should be let go? What did Hahn do about the LaRoach, Eaton, and Sale insubordinations? Did he confront the players or even Ventura to deal with it? No, waited for KW to handle it. Did Hahn ever consider Hinch as Manager and openly support a possible decision to hire him? Hinch is a guy who many feel should nave been banned from baseball? If Hinch was Hahn's choice, I am glad he was overruled. Did Hahn have any say on trading Madrigal and Heuer for Kimbrel? Or was that JR's decision to go all in for one year? The trade was and is indefensible IMO. I hope JR turns the reins over to his children or another ownership group and they reorganize the Front Office. Clean house, including Rick Hahn. I would say most Gm's are mostly autonomous in their decision making up to a point. all owners have the final say on anything as its their money. Generally, GM's have to get the owners thumbs up on any major expenditures or revenue acquired via trades. I would guess Hahn could hire whoever he wants as manager when renteria was hired, but when LaRussa became available The owner stepped in. Trades have been nixed in the past by various clubs when the Gm wanted to trade the face of the franchise and the owner said not so fast my friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 6 minutes ago, kleedawg said: I would say most Gm's are mostly autonomous in their decision making up to a point. all owners have the final say on anything as its their money. Generally, GM's have to get the owners thumbs up on any major expenditures or revenue acquired via trades. I would guess Hahn could hire whoever he wants as manager when renteria was hired, but when LaRussa became available The owner stepped in. Trades have been nixed in the past by various clubs when the Gm wanted to trade the face of the franchise and the owner said not so fast my friend. It is the normal structure around professional sports. While GMs typically have a lot of power, that power is not absolute. Occasionally that leads to people above the GM stepping in and doing something different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snopek Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 51 minutes ago, raBBit said: Funny how your Nick Williams serving a key role argument has been completely abandoned. Eloy, Robert & Engel got injured in a matter of one month. The three players combined for 3 days on the injury list in 2020 when Engel was exposed to someone who tested positive for COVID. Robert's injury was his second time on the IL since he's been in the states. He missed most of July in 2018. Engel's injury was (excluding his COVID safety stint) was his first IL stint since 2014 as far as I can see. Eloy's injuries have been running into walls. It's a mental shortcoming as opposed to body failures. I think it's reasonable for the Sox to expect him to do what the rest of outfielders do and not challenge inanimate objects to physical battles. And funny you turn to ripping the rotation health, can you guess how many teams had less starting pitchers used than the Sox this year? Before you change your faulty argument, I'll let you know. It is zero. I also think it's reasonable for fans to have a "I'll believe it when I see it" mindset, no? He did look a bit improved after coming back from the torn pec in terms of being reckless out there, but I think it needs to be seen over an extended period of time before he sheds the liability/injury risk labels. To your point about how he's getting injured, yeah, it's a good sign that the majority are not body failures. Instead we have dugout foul balls, wall collisions, player collisions and no hitter celebrations: https://southsideshowdown.com/2021/07/01/eloy-jimenez-injury-updates-history/ "Freak" injuries shouldn't really generate the injury-prone label, but when there's a pattern of freak injuries, what the what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said: To be fair, with 40 man rosters as they are, and options as they are, I am pretty sure there is no being able to insulate yourself against your 7th, 8th and 9th OFs playing in a game at the same time. Unless you are suggesting trading our entire OF, I am not sure what your answer is here that is also realistic. There is no way to have 9 starting OFs in the system. To say it again, when your top OFs include Eloy, Engle, Eaton, Robert, and Hamilton - you cannot go "how on Earth did we wind up playing our 8th outfielder batting 5th against our key division foe no one could ever have foreseen this". If you are stocking your lineup with guys who are injury prone, you must overspend on depth. It is not an accident when all these guys get hurt altogether. Same exact statement in the rotation. If Carlos Rodon, Reynaldo Lopez, Dallas Keuchel, and Michael Kopech are guys you're counting on in your top 7 starters, you can't come to me in August and say "How did we wind up needing our 9th starter this is impossible no team could overcome this". 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 minute ago, Balta1701 said: To say it again, when your top OFs include Eloy, Engle, Eaton, Robert, and Hamilton - you cannot go "how on Earth did we wind up playing our 8th outfielder batting 5th against our key division foe no one could ever have foreseen this". If you are stocking your lineup with guys who are injury prone, you must overspend on depth. It is not an accident when all these guys get hurt altogether. So trade the current OF or sign 9 OFs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 minute ago, Balta1701 said: To say it again, when your top OFs include Eloy, Engle, Eaton, Robert, and Hamilton - you cannot go "how on Earth did we wind up playing our 8th outfielder batting 5th against our key division foe no one could ever have foreseen this". If you are stocking your lineup with guys who are injury prone, you must overspend on depth. It is not an accident when all these guys get hurt altogether. Generally guys who are really good players don't like signing with teams where they are going to be the 8th OF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said: So trade the current OF or sign 9 OFs? Spend extra on your 4th and 5th OFs to make sure they are players who are regularly healthy and capable of playing starting roles for you for several months or in the playoffs. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 Just now, Balta1701 said: Spend extra on your 4th and 5th OFs to make sure they are players who are regularly healthy and capable of playing starting roles for you for several months or in the playoffs. So which starting capable OFs are willing to sign deals and sit around and wait for injuries? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: So which starting capable OFs are willing to sign deals and sit around and wait for injuries? Don't stop him, he's on a roll. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: So which starting capable OFs are willing to sign deals and sit around and wait for injuries? Ironically that's actually Chris Taylor's literal role. 67 games in CF, 46 games at 2b, 30 games in LF, 23 games at SS, 11 games at 3b, 8 games in RF this season (all games played, not just starts). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Hit Men Posted October 20, 2021 Author Share Posted October 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: To say it again, when your top OFs include Eloy, Engle, Eaton, Robert, and Hamilton - you cannot go "how on Earth did we wind up playing our 8th outfielder batting 5th against our key division foe no one could ever have foreseen this". If you are stocking your lineup with guys who are injury prone, you must overspend on depth. It is not an accident when all these guys get hurt altogether. A quality GM passes on guys like Adam Eaton in the first place, a poor signing for both health and production reasons. The only defense sycophants here could muster at the time of the signing was he had a good week against the Astros a few seasons ago, or saying he was good five - seven years ago. And they put Eloy at DH from the onset, to limit his injuries. if he can't learn to hit at that spot, than move him because that is his future if a team wants to compete for "multi championships", Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 minute ago, South Side Hit Men said: A quality GM passes on guys like Adam Eaton in the first place, a poor signing for both health and production reasons. The only defense sycophants here could muster at the time of the signing was he had a good week against the Astros a few seasons ago, or saying he was good five - seven years ago. And they put Eloy at DH from the onset, to limit his injuries. if he can't learn to hit at that spot, than move him because that is his future if a team wants to compete for "multi championships", Yea yea the owner and everyone else is trying to make it all bad we get it you only repeat yourself every day 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kleedawg Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Spend extra on your 4th and 5th OFs to make sure they are players who are regularly healthy and capable of playing starting roles for you for several months or in the playoffs. "regularly healthy outfielders get hurt too. Tampa Bay (an organization the consensus thinks is well run) went through 28 different pitchers by mid August (no clue how many they finished with). Should they have better prepared for that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 minute ago, kleedawg said: "regularly healthy outfielders get hurt too. Tampa Bay (an organization the consensus thinks is well run) went through 28 different pitchers by mid August (no clue how many they finished with). Should they have better prepared for that? That actually sounds like a prime example of a team being quite well prepared for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 minute ago, kleedawg said: "regularly healthy outfielders get hurt too. Tampa Bay (an organization the consensus thinks is well run) went through 28 different pitchers by mid August (no clue how many they finished with). Should they have better prepared for that? 29 teams will be total failures every year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Ironically that's actually Chris Taylor's literal role. 67 games in CF, 46 games at 2b, 30 games in LF, 23 games at SS, 11 games at 3b, 8 games in RF this season (all games played, not just starts). So how about the other 5? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kleedawg Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Ironically that's actually Chris Taylor's literal role. 67 games in CF, 46 games at 2b, 30 games in LF, 23 games at SS, 11 games at 3b, 8 games in RF this season (all games played, not just starts). and he is Starting most of those games not coming of the bench as the 4th or 5th outfielder. he is also on a National league club where benches have to be deeper to ph for the pitcher and for double switches. Kind of like Leury's role no? Problem was we had more injuries than Legend could plug by himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 hour ago, South Side Hit Men said: I can’t of wondered the same thing. Could Hahn be considering an exit? Seems super unlikely, but perhaps losing control to La Russa pushed him towards other opportunities. Just seems odd the end of season presser wouldn’t have been this week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 minute ago, Balta1701 said: That actually sounds like a prime example of a team being quite well prepared for it. Sounds like Tampa should trade all of their injury prone players and then sign new players and make sure they stay healthy am I doing this right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Hit Men Posted October 20, 2021 Author Share Posted October 20, 2021 5 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said: Yea yea the owner and everyone else is trying to make it all bad we get it you only repeat yourself every day It's not intentional. Jerry has never given a rats ass what the team does or doesn't do on the diamond or court, as long as he is making max cash. Hahn doesn't know any better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kleedawg Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: That actually sounds like a prime example of a team being quite well prepared for it. No, in TB case its shows how they treat their pitchers as a disposable commodity. Use them up plug in someone else, use them up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raBBit Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 17 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: To say it again, when your top OFs include Eloy, Engle, Eaton, Robert, and Hamilton - you cannot go "how on Earth did we wind up playing our 8th outfielder batting 5th against our key division foe no one could ever have foreseen this". If you are stocking your lineup with guys who are injury prone, you must overspend on depth. It is not an accident when all these guys get hurt altogether. Same exact statement in the rotation. If Carlos Rodon, Reynaldo Lopez, Dallas Keuchel, and Michael Kopech are guys you're counting on in your top 7 starters, you can't come to me in August and say "How did we wind up needing our 9th starter this is impossible no team could overcome this". How many times had Engel, Robert, Lopez and Keuchel been on the IL in their MLB careers prior to 2021? How many teams needed less starters than the White Sox in 2021? How many games have you actually watched? 14 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Spend extra on your 4th and 5th OFs to make sure they are players who are regularly healthy and capable of playing starting roles for you for several months or in the playoffs. How many IL trips had the Sox 4th outfielder (Adam Engel) and 5th outfielder (Leury Garcia) had coming into 2021? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raBBit Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 Looking towards the offseason though, Balta is making a decent point. We should probably bring in Joc Pederson and Andrelton Simmons for Charlotte in case of injury. Clearly they would prefer that to MLB deals where they have regular roles. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 10 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said: Sounds like Tampa should trade all of their injury prone players and then sign new players and make sure they stay healthy am I doing this right? Or have guys 9 and 10 capable of stepping in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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