Nitengale: La Russa "definitely" returning to the Sox

[harkness99]

dumb fucks.. not surprised though

 

not like this organization has a history of doing smart things.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

24 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

Poor anyone who has had a life impacted by addiction or disease.

Everyone has problems, maybe I'm a bad person because I'd rather see people get help and succeed than be buried by past mistakes.

/shrugs 

Agree its horrific. I just dont know the best way to deal with it. Ive always found criminalizing addict behavior is not helpful. But at the same time drunk driving could hurt someone else. Its a tricky one because does jail really help an addict or does it make them worse? Should we be punishing or rehabiliting?

Those are way above my pay grade, but I just see some hypocrisy. People mention Blackhawks as good, but didn't they have an employee sexually harassed? 

I just dont know, but today at least I just got tiring reading the same old attacks.

Tony larussa deserves zero sympathy for his alcohol usage and chosing to drink and drive. He faced zero responsibility 

[wegner]

10 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Tony larussa deserves zero sympathy for his alcohol usage and chosing to drink and drive. He faced zero responsibility 

Replace DUI with cheating and it sounds like Altuve.

[hi8is]

2 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

That's a good Sex Pistols song. I forget which one . Bodies ? Yep it's Bodies at the 1:55 mark.

 

I heard they only drink iced tea.

[GradMc]

14 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Here's to 2023.

That's funny.

[GradMc]

13 hours ago, quickman said:

The players wanted him back that starts with the leaders like Abreu and Anderson. those are you clubhouse voices.

 

And neither did much on the big stage.

[GradMc]

12 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

So basically TLR punted game 1 and that supposed to be a notch in the positive column for him? Giolito should have started game #1.  75% of this board felt the same way.  Giolito also could have started game 4 if he started game 1.  McCullers is really good and certainly a tough match up for the Sox, but lets not act like he's suddenly prime Pedro Martinez.  Gio wasn't great by any means in game 2 and he deserves critiism for that.  But he should have been yanked after the lead-off walk in the 5th and things potentially look a lot different.  If Kopech (or Bummer) comes in in that spot, the whole complexion of the series could have looked different.  

Kopech and Crochet are not relievers. They are starters. I'm not sure Kopech would have fared any better. He needs to add some more pitches. They were teeing off on his fast balls. But that's mentality of senior management...homers and strikeouts...all or nothing all.

And they got nothing.

[caulfield12]

11 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The Sox are who they always have been; sure they "rebuilt" but that was a concession Jerry could live with because it saved them some money.

They'll always be the "serious talking" half-assed walking organization when it comes to operating like a contender. They have always talked the talk, but they don't walk the walk. The organization is riddled with nepotism, the "advancements" and tech were just getting 5 years behind other teams instead of being 10, and the payroll is going to be the same spend high at positions that high doesn't cost much so you can claim you were playing with the big boys. The Sox won't pony up big cash to supplement the core like they claimed, instead they'll claim that cash was used to keep the core... whatever that means.

Fact is, the Sox don't know how to act like big boys, and their owner is stuck in a game that existed three decades ago. As long as LaRussa is in charge, we'll continue to see shit like this:

 

28	Chicago White Sox	-12	-21	-6	-14	3	2	0	7	-11	3	14	-5	-40
29	New York Yankees	-10	-5	-7	-12	-5	-15	-5	-5	6	-1	16	2	-41
30	Philadelphia Phillies	10	-8	-9	4	-11	-18	-9	0	-9	-9	9	-4	-54

White Sox -40 defensive runs. 20% shifts compared to league average of 30% and compared to 46% from Astros and 50% from Dodgers. As long as the Sox have a dinosaur in the dugout, they'll continue playing a game that hasn't existed since the Mesozoic era.

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/2021/
#1-4-5-12 in payrolls in the Final Four.  Three of Top 5.  Giants were #10.

White Sox at #15 (league average) are certainly not the Braves, Rays, Cardinals, Brewers, etc.

But we might just get stuck being cute with QO’s to Kimbrel and Rodon and blow the entire offseason budget with no RF, 2B, veteran starter, RH reliever (Tepera) or decent veteran backup catcher.

[GradMc]

10 hours ago, ron883 said:

This. Tony sucks, but talent wins out. Hahn absolutely shit the bed during this trade deadline. Jerry needs to open the checkbook and Hahn needs to have one hell of an offseason. 

Reinsdorf's checkbook should be open wide but not to Hahn. 

And no owner in his mind right mind would make Hahn head of baseball operations.

Before summoning security they would say FTJR for Shields.

Like it or not that is his legacy. 

Edited October 15, 2021 by GradMc

[South Side Hit Men]

9 minutes ago, GradMc said:

And neither did much on the big stage.

That's not true.

2021 OPS / Player / Career Postseason OPS / (2021 Salary)

• 1.022 Robert .952  ($3.5M)
• 1.000 Vaughn 1.000 ($0.6M)
• 1.000 Sheets 1.000 ($0.6M)
• .857 Abreu .871 ($19.7M)
• .831 Hernandez .900 ($5.0M)
• .737 Anderson 1.030 ($7.3M)
• .717 Garcia .515 ($3.5M)

2021 Zack Collins OPS .669

2021 CWS Adam Eaton OPS .642 

• .635 Grandal .605 ($18.3M)
• .588 Jimenez .684 ($4.3M)
• .544 Moncada .398 ($6.8M)
• .000 Engel .526 ($1.4M)

[Jerry McNertney]

I didn't want to see La Russa back. I've never liked him, going back to the 1980's.

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, GradMc said:

Reinsdorf's checkbook should be open wide but not to Hahn. 

And no owner in his mind right mind would make Hahn head of baseball operations.

Before summoning security they would say FTJR for Shields.

Like it or not that is his legacy. 

It feels like the trade deadline wiped away any good will he’d created.  Hernandez and Kimbrel couldn’t have worked out worse than just picking names at random from a trade targets jar.

He essentially lucked into Rodon and Lance Lynn in his mid 30s isn’t an automatic guarantee anymore either…added on to Grandal and Keuchel jamming up the payroll.

Way too many one-dimensional 1B/DH/1B types.

Also, unsure what’s going to happen with Kopech and Crochet.

Finally, giving up on top 5 picks Madrigal and now possibly Vaughn or Eloy at 75 cents on the dollar (to replace them with fading veterans) seems idiotic, at best.

[South Side Hit Men]

Just now, Jerry McNertney said:

I didn't want to see La Russa back. I've never liked him, going back to the 1980's.

Yep, he wasn't the answer before, and he's not the answer now. Assuming JR and TLR remain alive, I believe Tony will stick around through the rest of the window, perhaps for most of the decade to catch Connie Mack, and the Sox will waste the entire window to placate JR's ego and hubris.

 

[Balta1701]

8 hours ago, Soxbadger said:

 

Then get mad at JR but TLR has been the whipping boy at historic levels on this site. Id rather discuss legitimate arguments like why Astros can win with Dusty who isn't some genius.

TLR is just a minor part of a larger problem.

This is an underrated point and we saw how it mattered throughout that series. The Astros got this far with Dusty because Dusty is a collaborator with the rest of their organization. I seriously doubt Dusty was using computerized defensive positioning when he coached the Giants or Cubs 20 years ago, but that information is available now so he’s using it. When he decided McCullers was pitching game 4, did he decide that based on his gut or did he consult with others in the organization to come up with the decision that gave them the best chance to win the series - the right way would be the latter. He made a LaRussa level mistake in game 3, literally blew the game, but when other people have good information he used it.

Contrast that with the White Sox. After the famous “LaRussa gets the rules explained to him” incident, it was reported that people in the dugout were trying to explain the rule to him and he told them to shut up - exactly the opposite of a positive, collaborative relationship. Their analytics coordinator is a nepotism hire from the Cardinals in Shelley Duncan - the Pale Hose Eric Trump - exactly the kind of hire you make so that LaRussa wouldn’t have to put up with all that crap Baker has to hear from those people who don’t know the “right way” to play baseball.

And the end result we see on the field. We’ve covered the lack of shifting and how that was key to this series ad nauseam, but how about the pitching decisions? Lynn goes game 1 in Houston when he’s known to struggle there - did they know about that and ignore it or did they not even bother checking? Afterwards what was their comment- “oh maybe the game plan was bad”. What was the game plan? He threw about 70 pitches, 6 of which were offspeed, just like Lance Lynn the entire year, so was the game plan anything other than “be Lance Lynn but with playoff level TWTW?” Doesn’t appear so. Did LaRussa know how rarely Crochet was used in back to back outings and not care, or is Duncan there just so LaRussa isn’t bothered with that stuff? 

Sometime last offseason LaRussa had a quote about how he thought they had a lot to learn from him and the way things used to be done, and while seemingly innocuous, this type of performance is exactly what we were expecting. The White Sox remain an organization who are obsessed with playing the old fashioned way, with going with your gut and winning because your TWTW is higher than the other team, LaRussa is a symptom of that organizational failing, but he is also bringing in people and doing things to make it worse. 

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

This is an underrated point and we saw how it mattered throughout that series. The Astros got this far with Dusty because Dusty is a collaborator with the rest of their organization. I seriously doubt Dusty was using computerized defensive positioning when he coached the Giants or Cubs 20 years ago, but that information is available now so he’s using it. When he decided McCullers was pitching game 4, did he decide that based on his gut or did he consult with others in the organization to come up with the decision that gave them the best chance to win the series - the right way would be the latter. He made a LaRussa level mistake in game 3, literally blew the game, but when other people have good information he used it.

Contrast that with the White Sox. After the famous “LaRussa gets the rules explained to him” incident, it was reported that people in the dugout were trying to explain the rule to him and he told them to shut up - exactly the opposite of a positive, collaborative relationship. Their analytics coordinator is a nepotism hire from the Cardinals in Shelley Duncan - the Pale Hose Eric Trump - exactly the kind of hire you make so that LaRussa wouldn’t have to put up with all that crap Baker has to hear from those people who don’t know the “right way” to play baseball.

And the end result we see on the field. We’ve covered the lack of shifting and how that was key to this series ad nauseam, but how about the pitching decisions? Lynn goes game 1 in Houston when he’s known to struggle there - did they know about that and ignore it or did they not even bother checking? Afterwards what was their comment- “oh maybe the game plan was bad”. What was the game plan? He threw about 70 pitches, 6 of which were offspeed, just like Lance Lynn the entire year, so was the game plan anything other than “be Lance Lynn but with playoff level TWTW?” Doesn’t appear so. Did LaRussa know how rarely Crochet was used in back to back outings and not care, or is Duncan there just so LaRussa isn’t bothered with that stuff? 

Sometime last offseason LaRussa had a quote about how he thought they had a lot to learn from him and the way things used to be done, and while seemingly innocuous, this type of performance is exactly what we were expecting. The White Sox remain an organization who are obsessed with playing the old fashioned way, with going with your gut and winning because your TWTW is higher than the other team, LaRussa is a symptom of that organizational failing, but he is also bringing in people and doing things to make it worse. 

Can we also have the Pale Hose Sinema or Manchin just to even things out?…as those comps to TLR are probably just as accurate.

Okay, now we can leave politics behind again.

[reiks12]

10 hours ago, tray said:

A lot of fans would have started Vaughn instead of Leury in Game 3, and the Sox would have been swept.

Astros have been dominant under different managers.

10 - 1 loss is not the Manager's fault.

I do not want Hahn OR LaRussa to return, but scapegoating on them does not seem to be impressing the people that matter.

Cubs won once in 100+ years. What about their organization and Manager? Where are they at now?

When is the last WS that the Rays won?

Look, the Sox lost to a better team, primarily because of their pitching staff. Sox got taught. It is what it is.

OK, let's hear a few more LaRussa drinking jokes if that makes you feel better.

Its a system issue. Dave Roberts said he didnt have a choice on who started game 5. The organization did.

We had a 70% chance to win game 2. The moves made there were total head scratchers, and the lack of shifting easily cost us multiple runs. 

Also calling out the Rays is laughable, they have one of the lowest payrolls in the league and didnt benefit from tanking and trading generational talent for easy top prospects. The Rays will be good for another decade with how their minor leagues are breaking records. Our window will close and we will be bottom feeders again playing 1995 baseball.

Edited October 15, 2021 by reiks12

[caulfield12]

Something we have never heard about the White Sox...like ever.

"All of our success has been driven by players exceeding expectations and that's a tribute to their work, and the staff, and the infrastructure that we've built to support them.” That’s Giants president of baseball operations Farhan Zaidi, who took over after the 2018 season and has built a deeper, more modern team while staying — at times confoundingly — invested in the same core that formed the backbone of a dynasty almost a decade ago.....If you pull the individual threads that constitute the tapestry of their success this season, many lead back to Zaidi’s ability to identify overlooked talent. Arming those players with the information to maximize their largely untapped potential has led to breakouts for Wade, Darin Ruf, Kevin Gausman and Webb, among others.

“I feel like sometimes guys are kind of taught the same thing. But really, every guy's different and they do a really good job of telling guys, ‘You're really good at this, do that,’” says Webb, who has leaned into his sinker to get more ground balls this season. “There’s so many different numbers now.”

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/how-the-san-francisco-giants-took-a-familiar-roster-and-unearthed-the-best-team-in-baseball-122426831.html

Edited October 15, 2021 by caulfield12

[greg775]

7 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Finally, giving up on top 5 picks Madrigal and now possibly Vaughn or Eloy at 75 cents on the dollar (to replace them with fading veterans) seems idiotic, at best.

If he trades Vaughn or Eloy you rebuilding fans will have your rebuilding plan torn up completely. Eloy is a huge piece of the rebuilding.

[greg775]

5 hours ago, reiks12 said:

and didnt benefit from tanking and trading generational talent for easy top prospects. The Rays will be good for another decade 

Tanking is one of the biggest reasons sports generally reek nowadays. It's a horrific way to 'build' a team for a small window of greatness. If Sox can get a title out of it like the Cubs, one title, I guess that's a huge success nowadays.

[Dick Allen]

2 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Tanking is one of the biggest reasons sports generally reek nowadays. It's a horrific way to 'build' a team for a small window of greatness. If Sox can get a title out of it like the Cubs, one title, I guess that's a huge success nowadays.

I agree. I understand tanking, but it really sucks. It would be a lot better if everyone was trying to win every year. Tanking has always been around, it's just that there are a lot more tankers now than ever before.

[Saufley]

8 hours ago, Jerry McNertney said:

I didn't want to see La Russa back. I've never liked him, going back to the 1980's.

On vacation and when I heard the news the vacation is now ruined!

[Chimpton]

9 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Yep, he wasn't the answer before, and he's not the answer now. Assuming JR and TLR remain alive, I believe Tony will stick around through the rest of the window, perhaps for most of the decade to catch Connie Mack, and the Sox will waste the entire window to placate JR's ego and hubris.

 

Well that's enough to make a man turn to drink! A pity it is the Sox manager.

[poppysox]

9 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

It feels like the trade deadline wiped away any good will he’d created.  Hernandez and Kimbrel couldn’t have worked out worse than just picking names at random from a trade targets jar.

He essentially lucked into Rodon and Lance Lynn in his mid 30s isn’t an automatic guarantee anymore either…added on to Grandal and Keuchel jamming up the payroll.

Way too many one-dimensional 1B/DH/1B types.

Also, unsure what’s going to happen with Kopech and Crochet.

Finally, giving up on top 5 picks Madrigal and now possibly Vaughn or Eloy at 75 cents on the dollar (to replace them with fading veterans) seems idiotic, at best.

As someone who is frequently accused of being too easy on the FO...let me just say that if either Vaughn or Eloy are deemed expendable like my boy Madrigal...I will be going over to the other side.  We need to develop our young guys like Eloy, Robert, Vaughn, Burger, Sheets and to a lesser extent Collins.  

[ron883]

36 minutes ago, poppysox said:

As someone who is frequently accused of being too easy on the FO...let me just say that if either Vaughn or Eloy are deemed expendable like my boy Madrigal...I will be going over to the other side.  We need to develop our young guys like Eloy, Robert, Vaughn, Burger, Sheets and to a lesser extent Collins.  

=O a threat to become a Cubs fan? Ballsy!

[Tony]

30 minutes ago, poppysox said:

As someone who is frequently accused of being too easy on the FO...let me just say that if either Vaughn or Eloy are deemed expendable like my boy Madrigal...I will be going over to the other side.  We need to develop our young guys like Eloy, Robert, Vaughn, Burger, Sheets and to a lesser extent Collins.  

There is a large difference between Eloy and Robert and Vaughn, Burger, Sheets, Collins, etc. 

The difference isn't just talent. It's money. Eloy and Robery and locked into long-term, somewhat expensive deals. The others are not. 

Here is what the Sox are going to need to decide, and quickly. How long do they truly envision their "window" being open? They need to be very honest with themselves. They know they don't have an owner that is going to support a long term payroll of 200 million+, and if they want to keep this entire core together, it's going to cost that much to accomplish. If they really believe they can make the playoffs with the current payroll restraints year after year, you need to hang onto those young players as they will play a very key role in staying within the payroll limits imposed. 

If they decide the window is closer to 2-3 more years....then trading some cost-controlled players like Vaughn actually makes some sense. Make the roster as good as you can until 2024, because at that point Grandal-Abreu-Lynn-Giolito will all be FA's. I'm not saying that's what they should do or that's what will happen, but if you've made the determination that this is the group and once that group hits FA it's over.....then trade anyone with cost-controlled value that will help you NOW, win as much as you can the next 2-3 seasons, and then start it all over again (with a few key pieces to either help start the rebuild over in Robert and Eloy) or build around those guys moving forward.