Abreu next year and in the future

[South Side Hit Men]

Abreu should be fine next year, but I don't trust any contract beyond that, especially with a manager who doesn't have the balls to even rest Abreu for a day without Jose's permission, let alone reduce playing time if he declines at some point over a new contract. He will be 36 entering 2023, if any deal it is offered it should be a year with an option. In a perfect world, he would opt for a front office or coaching role once he is unable to perform at the high standards he has over his White Sox career.

I don't think he will want to linger in mediocrity or worse like Konerko did during his final contract, but at the same time any player's natural stance when they reach the end of the line is "just is just a slump, I can turn it around, need to play everyday to do so."

[vilehoopster]

Sorry but have to get back on Grandal topic. You can quote war or whatever stats you want, but Grandal is absolutely horrible on defense, horrible. 

This didn’t become clear until we heard other announcers beyond Steve and Jason not just telling the management line. Didn’t I hear, pretty sure I did, that this year Sox were last in the majors in both passed balls and wild pitches (in other words, pitches in the dirt that Grandal didn't block). Last in baseball. 

Also, didn’t I also hear that Sox were worst in majors at throwing out base stealers. Pretty sure I heard that too. Now I know pitchers have to hold runners close, but still most of that is still on the catcher. 

Last in pass balls/ wild pitches and last in throwing out runners, last; but yet somehow according to war or some other stat, Grandal is a good defensive catcher. How is that possible?

When we complain about bad trade or signings, signing Grandal and chasing out McCanns has to be near the top.

 

 

 

 

 

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, vilehoopster said:

Sorry but have to get back on Grandal topic. You can quote war or whatever stats you want, but Grandal is absolutely horrible on defense, horrible. 

This didn’t become clear until we heard other announcers beyond Steve and Jason not just telling the management line. Didn’t I hear, pretty sure I did, that this year Sox were last in the majors in both passed balls and wild pitches (in other words, pitches in the dirt that Grandal didn't block). Last in baseball. 

Also, didn’t I also hear that Sox were worst in majors at throwing out base stealers. Pretty sure I heard that too. Now I know pitchers have to hold runners close, but still most of that is still on the catcher. 

Last in pass balls/ wild pitches and last in throwing out runners, last; but yet somehow according to war or some other stat, Grandal is a good defensive catcher. How is that possible?

When we complain about bad trade or signings, signing Grandal and chasing out McCanns has to be near the top.

 

 

 

 

 

If you think the catchers were responsible for most of the bases stolen against the team this year, you didn't watch the games.  The pitchers did NOTHING to hold runners, and they ran with huge jumps on a regular basis.

[Tony]

4 hours ago, bighurt574 said:

I hope Abreu has a few productive years left in him but this team is too good to keep him around just for sentimentality reasons.  That said, his trade value isn’t much either.  He’s clearly back next year and then they can reevaluate what sort of contract to offer him after that.  

Stop bringing up "Abreu" and "Trade" 

Sorry to single you out, but I've seen it multiple times already this offseason. 

He will NEVER be traded from the White Sox. We need to stop mentioning it. 

[southsider2k5]

Just now, Tony said:

Stop bringing up "Abreu" and "Trade" 

Sorry to single you out, but I've seen it multiple times already this offseason. 

He will NEVER be traded from the White Sox. We need to stop mentioning it. 

There are about zero scenarios that involve Jose Abreu on another roster next year.  There isn't even a real need to discuss it.

[vilehoopster]

10 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

If you think the catchers were responsible for most of the bases stolen against the team this year, you didn't watch the games.  The pitchers did NOTHING to hold runners, and they ran with huge jumps on a regular basis.

There is truth to that. But doesn’t a catcher tell a pitcher to throw to 1st? Certainly, our pitchers deserve blame but not all the blame. Again, last in baseball. And let’s talk passed balls/ wild pitches.

[Thad Bosley]

13 hours ago, ron883 said:

Back on topic folks. We're talking about Abreu's upcoming demise and how it will be handled.

Yes, people, what’s wrong with you!  How dare you sh*t on another one of ron’s pathetic attempts to sh*t on one of the White Sox’ most productive and respected players of all time!  Can’t you just indulge him on his odd desire to see Pito’s “upcoming demise”?  It’s what he seemingly wants more than anything else White Sox-related, so give the man what he wants!

?

[kleedawg]

1 hour ago, vilehoopster said:

There is truth to that. But doesn’t a catcher tell a pitcher to throw to 1st? Certainly, our pitchers deserve blame but not all the blame. Again, last in baseball. And let’s talk passed balls/ wild pitches.

no, a catcher can give a sign to throw to first, but the responsibility to hold runners is the pitchers. He can throw over whenever he wants regardless if he gets a sign or not. He should vary how long he holds before going home. He should vary the speed in which he throws over. If he is a lefty he should have multiple moves. He should vary how many times he looks at 2b. Above the high school level, you always steal on the pitcher, not the catcher. The pitchers deserve 99.99% of the blame on any steal in the majors.

Edited October 21, 2021 by kleedawg

[vilehoopster]

Simple way to check this. Were the Sox last in baseball at throwing out base runners two years ago when McCann was the primary catcher? Again, last in baseball. 
 

still haven’t heard comment on passed balls stat.

[Tony]

17 minutes ago, Thad Bosley said:

Yes, people, what’s wrong with you!  How dare you sh*t on another one of ron’s pathetic attempts to sh*t on one of the White Sox’ most productive and respected players of all time!  Can’t you just indulge him on his odd desire to see Pito’s “upcoming demise”?  It’s what he seemingly wants more than anything else White Sox-related, so give the man what he wants!

?

[kleedawg]

4 minutes ago, vilehoopster said:

Simple way to check this. Were the Sox last in baseball at throwing out base runners two years ago when McCann was the primary catcher? Again, last in baseball. 
 

still haven’t heard comment on passed balls stat.

Correct, because our pitchers have been bad at holding runners for quite some time. Mcann & Yaz are both strong throwing catchers. The question is why organizationally is this true? Some possible explanations may be:

1. emphasis on getting the hitter and not being distracted by runners.

2, Teams for a long period subscribing to "billyball" and not running.

3. Eschewing slide steps for max velocity/spin rate

[southsider2k5]

18 minutes ago, vilehoopster said:

Simple way to check this. Were the Sox last in baseball at throwing out base runners two years ago when McCann was the primary catcher? Again, last in baseball. 
 

still haven’t heard comment on passed balls stat.

Grandal didn't even lead the team in PBs.

[ron883]

1 hour ago, Thad Bosley said:

Yes, people, what’s wrong with you!  How dare you sh*t on another one of ron’s pathetic attempts to sh*t on one of the White Sox’ most productive and respected players of all time!  Can’t you just indulge him on his odd desire to see Pito’s “upcoming demise”?  It’s what he seemingly wants more than anything else White Sox-related, so give the man what he wants!

?

Put a sock in it, Bosley

[Thad Bosley]

23 minutes ago, ron883 said:

Put a sock in it, Bosley

Better suggestion is for you to put a in sock in these attention-seeking smears of one of the most highly-regarded Sox players of all time.  

Edited October 21, 2021 by Thad Bosley

[ShoeLessRob]

I think when you compare Grandal to Collins and/or Zavala, he looks amazing. But I’d rather have an average bat behind the plate who is a GG fielder, which he is not. 

[Eminor3rd]

29 minutes ago, ShoeLessRob said:

I think when you compare Grandal to Collins and/or Zavala, he looks amazing. But I’d rather have an average bat behind the plate who is a GG fielder, which he is not. 

I think a lot of other MLB teams agree with you.

[ShoeLessRob]

3 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

I think a lot of other MLB teams agree with you.

I think the issue was when he was signed, he was billed as being defensively a stud. I don’t care what stats people produce when you watch a game, he’s really bad behind the plate. 

[Eminor3rd]

5 minutes ago, ShoeLessRob said:

I think the issue was when he was signed, he was billed as being defensively a stud. I don’t care what stats people produce when you watch a game, he’s really bad behind the plate. 

Yeah, well he WAS considered a defensive stud for a bit when catcher framing quickly became like the ONLY quantifiable part of catcher defense, and so everyone got obsessed with it. You never hear about it anymore because (1) it turns out it can be taught relatively easily, even to veterans, and pretty much every team does that now, so the difference between good and bad framers is way smaller than it was before, and (2) the teams that were on it quickly have pretty much de-emphasized it, because they've decided that game-calling and pitcher relationships seem to be even more valuable, especially given point #1.

But it isn't unusual for the he White Sox to "catch up" to modern trends after there's little value left to be gained,

[Dick Allen]

25 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

Yeah, well he WAS considered a defensive stud for a bit when catcher framing quickly became like the ONLY quantifiable part of catcher defense, and so everyone got obsessed with it. You never hear about it anymore because (1) it turns out it can be taught relatively easily, even to veterans, and pretty much every team does that now, so the difference between good and bad framers is way smaller than it was before, and (2) the teams that were on it quickly have pretty much de-emphasized it, because they've decided that game-calling and pitcher relationships seem to be even more valuable, especially given point #1.

But it isn't unusual for the he White Sox to "catch up" to modern trends after there's little value left to be gained,

So now you are saying the advanced metrics are wrong and the eye test is correct? 
People make him out to be Yermin Mercedes behind the plate, yet his advanced metrics say he is way better than that. This was the first season since 2013 he didnt throw out baserunners at an above average rate. Plus he was injured for probably the whole year. I am glad the Sox have him. He is the best Sox catcher since Carlton Fisk, and Fisk was only better than the beat up 2021 Grandal a couple of seasons, if that. If Yas is a problem, the White Sox have nothing to worry about.

Edited October 21, 2021 by Dick Allen

[poppysox]

So...who is the best defensive catcher available this off-season?  

[Jerksticks]

7 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

Yeah, well he WAS considered a defensive stud for a bit when catcher framing quickly became like the ONLY quantifiable part of catcher defense, and so everyone got obsessed with it. You never hear about it anymore because (1) it turns out it can be taught relatively easily, even to veterans, and pretty much every team does that now, so the difference between good and bad framers is way smaller than it was before, and (2) the teams that were on it quickly have pretty much de-emphasized it, because they've decided that game-calling and pitcher relationships seem to be even more valuable, especially given point #1.

But it isn't unusual for the he White Sox to "catch up" to modern trends after there's little value left to be gained,

I consider all of this to be completely your opinion.

My opinion is that he’s the best catcher I’ve ever seen play for the Sox.  I was alive for Fisk but my only real memories were mainly centered around ordering The Carlton Fisk n Chips from the Charley Horse in Orland. 

[CeaseAndExist]

7 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

Yeah, well he WAS considered a defensive stud for a bit when catcher framing quickly became like the ONLY quantifiable part of catcher defense, and so everyone got obsessed with it. You never hear about it anymore because (1) it turns out it can be taught relatively easily, even to veterans, and pretty much every team does that now, so the difference between good and bad framers is way smaller than it was before, and (2) the teams that were on it quickly have pretty much de-emphasized it, because they've decided that game-calling and pitcher relationships seem to be even more valuable, especially given point #1.

But it isn't unusual for the he White Sox to "catch up" to modern trends after there's little value left to be gained,

 

There's zero truth to anything you said. Framing is incredibly important. Sure guys can get better at it but there's a massive gap between Realmuto's framing and someone like Collins. And it's not zero sum game between framing and game-calling.

Really though, its amusing to see how even one of the best players at his position, Grandal, isn't good enough for half our fanbase, and gets shredded by the "eye test" crowd. It's also depressing though because the default position seems to be:

Any Sox player = terrible

Any non-Sox player = amazing 

 

[CeaseAndExist]

8 hours ago, ShoeLessRob said:

I think the issue was when he was signed, he was billed as being defensively a stud. I don’t care what stats people produce when you watch a game, he’s really bad behind the plate. 

Thank you for summing up what is wrong with so much of our fanbase. You use the "eye test" to trash the entire roster. Catcher defense can be accurately measured by stats/analytics.

Every MLB organization would laugh at what you're saying. It's not 1986 anymore, nobody outside of Sox fans apparently is using the "eye test" to measure performance

[CeaseAndExist]

8 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

I think a lot of other MLB teams agree with you.

Which ones? 

[ShoeLessRob]

11 minutes ago, CeaseAndExist said:

Thank you for summing up what is wrong with so much of our fanbase. You use the "eye test" to trash the entire roster. Catcher defense can be accurately measured by stats/analytics.

Every MLB organization would laugh at what you're saying. It's not 1986 anymore, nobody outside of Sox fans apparently is using the "eye test" to measure performance

Do you actually watch the games? Your cool with all the passed balls and 0-2 fastballs down the middle?