Abreu next year and in the future

[CeaseAndExist]

1 minute ago, ShoeLessRob said:

Do you actually watch the games? Your cool with all the passed balls and 0-2 fastballs down the middle? 

back it up with stats. You claim he's awful, let's see more than the "eye test".

I've seen Realmuto, Molina, and every other C give up passed balls.

And wtf even is 0-2 fastballs down the middle? How does that even relate to Grandal lol

[Chicago White Sox]

11 minutes ago, CeaseAndExist said:

back it up with stats. You claim he's awful, let's see more than the "eye test".

I've seen Realmuto, Molina, and every other C give up passed balls.

And wtf even is 0-2 fastballs down the middle? How does that even relate to Grandal lol

Unfortunately that’s the hot new claim amongst Grandal haters.  He apparently calls a ton of 0-2 fastballs because he’s aware he can’t catch the breaking stuff.

[hi8is]

Yaz has defensive issues that I believe go under the radar in stats measurements @CeaseAndExist. After watching him here in LA for years I expected them when we signed him.

Pitch selection when up the the count could be attributed to his game calling also.

Edited October 22, 2021 by hi8is
I should also point out that I am supportive of him and was excited when we signed him.

[greg775]

Abreu is still a vital cog. I hope he stays healthy. This team's flop in the playoffs really changes my outlook on the "rebuild."

Sox pitching staff is really in shambles following the decline of Keuchel and dead arm or whatever Rodon had. Also, Lynn wasn't exactly money in the playoffs and Cease wasn't either. The bullpen is not lockdown. Liam had a nice year but also was far from automatic.

The lineup? Injury after injury. Rick Hahn needs to address injuries. No excuse when you are a team like the White Sox to not have the BEST trainers. Maybe the Sox do have the best. I sure hope so.

As far as Jose ... I could see him having an even better year next year. If I had to guess ... a monster year next year and Sox win it all. After that his decline begins. Sox lineup could be deadly with Robert and Eloy and Adolpho coming with Timmy and the many other bats. Sheets looks like a star; Vaughn and Burger MLB quality bats.

Edited October 22, 2021 by greg775

[caulfield12]

35 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Abreu is still a vital cog. I hope he stays healthy. This team's flop in the playoffs really changes my outlook on the "rebuild."

Sox pitching staff is really in shambles following the decline of Keuchel and dead arm or whatever Rodon had. Also, Lynn wasn't exactly money in the playoffs and Cease wasn't either. The bullpen is not lockdown. Liam had a nice year but also was far from automatic.

The lineup? Injury after injury. Rick Hahn needs to address injuries. No excuse when you are a team like the White Sox to not have the BEST trainers. Maybe the Sox do have the best. I sure hope so.

As far as Jose ... I could see him having an even better year next year. If I had to guess ... a monster year next year and Sox win it all. After that his decline begins. Sox lineup could be deadly with Robert and Eloy and Adolpho coming with Timmy and the many other bats. Sheets looks like a star; Vaughn and Burger MLB quality bats.

We might need a few more Hail Mary's and Our Father's to win a championship with Micker Adolfo playing  a key role next season...

[ron883]

1 hour ago, greg775 said:

Abreu is still a vital cog. I hope he stays healthy. This team's flop in the playoffs really changes my outlook on the "rebuild."

Sox pitching staff is really in shambles following the decline of Keuchel and dead arm or whatever Rodon had. Also, Lynn wasn't exactly money in the playoffs and Cease wasn't either. The bullpen is not lockdown. Liam had a nice year but also was far from automatic.

The lineup? Injury after injury. Rick Hahn needs to address injuries. No excuse when you are a team like the White Sox to not have the BEST trainers. Maybe the Sox do have the best. I sure hope so.

As far as Jose ... I could see him having an even better year next year. If I had to guess ... a monster year next year and Sox win it all. After that his decline begins. Sox lineup could be deadly with Robert and Eloy and Adolpho coming with Timmy and the many other bats. Sheets looks like a star; Vaughn and Burger MLB quality bats.

greg's back!

[vilehoopster]

4 hours ago, CeaseAndExist said:

back it up with stats. You claim he's awful, let's see more than the "eye test".

I've seen Realmuto, Molina, and every other C give up passed balls.

And wtf even is 0-2 fastballs down the middle? How does that even relate to Grandal lol

Oh my God! Didn’t I start with stats? Sox LAST in baseball in passed balls and wild pitches. Sox LAST in baseball in throwing out runners. Those are stats!  

You guys quote this stat or that stat as empirical proof. Isn’t often the difference between a hit and a error an “eye test”, an opinion. Doesn’t that opinion affect offensive and defensive war? Isn’t the weight given to offense vs. defensive stats in war, and how war was created based on the values attributed to this or that based completely on opinion.

Quote any stat you want, You cannot watch Grandal catch a week’s worth of games and claim he is anywhere near the defensive catcher McCann was.

You guys making fun of the “eye test” are like the guy standing in the rain while everyone else is under an umbrella insisting that the radar on your phone says it’s not raining.

[Chimpton]

1 hour ago, vilehoopster said:

Oh my God! Didn’t I start with stats? Sox LAST in baseball in passed balls and wild pitches. Sox LAST in baseball in throwing out runners. Those are stats!  

You guys quote this stat or that stat as empirical proof. Isn’t often the difference between a hit and a error an “eye test”, an opinion. Doesn’t that opinion affect offensive and defensive war? Isn’t the weight given to offense vs. defensive stats in war, and how war was created based on the values attributed to this or that based completely on opinion.

Quote any stat you want, You cannot watch Grandal catch a week’s worth of games and claim he is anywhere near the defensive catcher McCann was.

You guys making fun of the “eye test” are like the guy standing in the rain while everyone else is under an umbrella insisting that the radar on your phone says it’s not raining.

Just a point but of those White Sox passed balls in 2021 Seby Zavala was responsible for 8 in his 33 appearances, Grandal 7 in his 80 appearnaces as catcher. Not saying Grandal doesn't have an issue with passed balls as he has been as bad or worse in many recent seasons, 16 in 2017 (not with Sox).  But not all the passed balls this season were his fault. 

[Dick Allen]

2 hours ago, vilehoopster said:

Oh my God! Didn’t I start with stats? Sox LAST in baseball in passed balls and wild pitches. Sox LAST in baseball in throwing out runners. Those are stats!  

You guys quote this stat or that stat as empirical proof. Isn’t often the difference between a hit and a error an “eye test”, an opinion. Doesn’t that opinion affect offensive and defensive war? Isn’t the weight given to offense vs. defensive stats in war, and how war was created based on the values attributed to this or that based completely on opinion.

Quote any stat you want, You cannot watch Grandal catch a week’s worth of games and claim he is anywhere near the defensive catcher McCann was.

You guys making fun of the “eye test” are like the guy standing in the rain while everyone else is under an umbrella insisting that the radar on your phone says it’s not raining.

The Sox were barely .500 with anyone else but Grandal behind the plate, and won 93 games this year. How’s that for an eye test? Grandal is not a problem.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Dick Allen

[FoxForce2]

21 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

The Sox were barely .500 with anyone else but Grandal behind the plate, and won 93 games this year. How’s that for an eye test? Grandal is not a problem.

Agreed but getting a quality #2 catcher (not necessarily a 'backup') would appear to be a priority this offseason.

[kleedawg]

55 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

The Sox were barely .500 with anyone else but Grandal behind the plate, and won 93 games this year. How’s that for an eye test? Grandal is not a problem.

/agree. Also some of Grandal's problems (especially early in the year) can be attributed to playing a demanding position while injured. Sometimes, comically Grandal misses a ball because he he is trying to frame it so hard. 

[Balta1701]

12 minutes ago, kleedawg said:

/agree. Also some of Grandal's problems (especially early in the year) can be attributed to playing a demanding position while injured. Sometimes, comically Grandal misses a ball because he he is trying to frame it so hard. 

A passes ball still counts even if the intent was to catch it.

[kleedawg]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

A passes ball still counts even if the intent was to catch it.

no doubt, but if they are due to injury they should be reduced when healthy, no? If they are caused by overzealous  framing thats easier to correct then poor technique...no?

[Eminor3rd]

9 hours ago, CeaseAndExist said:

There's zero truth to anything you said.

 

Ok

Quote

Framing is incredibly important.

Didn't say it wasn't; try reading closer.

Quote

Sure guys can get better at it but there's a massive gap between Realmuto's framing and someone like Collins.

Yep, but it's a substantially smaller gap than it used to be. Here's one article, of dozens available, explaining this: https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2018/9/21/17885820/pitch-framing-strike-zone-jorge-alfaro-tyler-flowers

Quote

And it's not zero sum game between framing and game-calling.

Didn't say it was -- but it's a nearly universal consensus (and was at the time of the White Sox signing) that Grandal is/was elite at the former and terrible at the latter -- and that happens to be who we're talking about.

Quote

Really though, its amusing to see how even one of the best players at his position, Grandal, isn't good enough for half our fanbase, and gets shredded by the "eye test" crowd. It's also depressing though because the default position seems to be:

Any Sox player = terrible

Any non-Sox player = amazing 

It seems like you had a particular-shaped complaint that you wanted to fit my post into ahead of time. I don't even have a problem with Grandal on this team, lol.

9 hours ago, CeaseAndExist said:

Which ones? 

All of the teams that are employing specifically those players? The two teams in the ALCS are good examples, but you can find more.

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, kleedawg said:

no doubt, but if they are due to injury they should be reduced when healthy, no? If they are caused by overzealous  framing thats easier to correct then poor technique...no?

Yasmani Grandal will not be magically correcting his passed balls based on either his framing technique or based on his mental errors. This isn’t a guy who is young or who hasn’t had good coaching.  This is just who he is. You get a lot of good with him but some bad, you just need to make sure you minimize the impact of the bad through other moves.

[Chimpton]

22 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Yasmani Grandal will not be magically correcting his passed balls based on either his framing technique or based on his mental errors. This isn’t a guy who is young or who hasn’t had good coaching.  This is just who he is. You get a lot of good with him but some bad, you just need to make sure you minimize the impact of the bad through other moves.

Exactly, and it wasn't as if passed balls wasn't a problem/issue he had when the White Sox acquired him, but as an overall package as a catcher he is better than many recent ones at the Sox. And just as a point of comparison as some still mention him on here, James McCann had 8 passed balls this season whilst producing far less with the bat.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Chimpton
spelling

[Dick Allen]

8 minutes ago, Chimpton said:

Exactly, and it wasn't as if passed balls wasn't a problem/issue he had when the White Sox acquired him, but as an overall package as a catcher he is better than many recent ones at the Sox. And just as a point of comparison as some still mention him on here, James McCann had 8 passed balls this season whilst producing far less with the bat.

Matrix Maldonado had 7, Christian Vazquez had 10. Reading this board you would think Grandal has 3 or 4 a game. 

[Y2Jimmy0]

1 hour ago, FoxForce2 said:

Agreed but getting a quality #2 catcher (not necessarily a 'backup') would appear to be a priority this offseason.

When will this person play though? That's the problem. You can't play Grandal at DH all the time if you're keeping Eloy, Abreu, Vaughn and Sheets. Something has to give somewhere. 

[Flash]

TRADE TARGET...

Daulton Varsho Diamondbacks. 25 yr old w/5 yrs of control. Excellent defensive catcher (caught 31 games in '21 but blocked by Carson Kelly) and all around OF (all 3 positions). LH hitter with pop. Can catch or platoon w/Engel and or Jimenez/Vaughn. He'd cost plenty in trade but would be an ideal target. Maybe D-backs would do business on a package to also include Ketal Marte. 

[Balta1701]

10 minutes ago, Chimpton said:

Exactly, and it wasn't as if passed balls wasn't a problem/issue he had when the White Sox acquired him, but as an overall package as a catcher he is better than many recent ones at the Sox. And just as a point of comparison as some still mention him on here, James McCann had 8 passed balls this season whilst producing far less with the bat.

How might a team go about minimizing the weaknesses by a guy like Grandal? 

Well, the front office could do it. You might make sure you have a backup who can block stuff and who you have confidence coming in late in games, which could also help rest Grandal’s older legs. If say, you had 2 backups, one was bad at framing and the other even worse at blocking, maybe you keep the guy around who blocks the plate better. Better still, you start working with that guy to improve his framing, it can be done.

Or if you are thinking of paying a high price for a reliever in a trade, and that reliever relies heavily on a nasty knuckle curve in the dirt, maybe you recognize this will be a problem for your catcher and skip that trade. And if you don’t have people in your org who recognize that issue beforehand, you find better people.

And hypothetically if you are in a playoff elimination game and your starter has a big fastball and a wipeout slider, but has had shoulder problems lately and not thrown a lot of pitches, and that starter gets in trouble in say the third inning, maybe with a runner on third, you recognize as a good manager that the catcher might not want to call for the slider and risk a passed ball, so before your pitcher throws three straight fastballs, you ask whether the pitcher still has his best fastball, and if he doesn’t you take him out before that at bat. Totally hypothetical.

[A-Train to 35th]

20 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Matrix Maldonado had 7, Christian Vazquez had 10. Reading this board you would think Grandal has 3 or 4 a game. 

Looking at Grandal full seasons in 2019 he had 8 passed balls and in 2021 he had 7.  Hardly the problem.

Strong pitching which the Sox lacked in the second half of the season was the downfall of the season, that and our outfield defense which besides Robert for only 68 games was terrible.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

9 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

When will this person play though? That's the problem. You can't play Grandal at DH all the time if you're keeping Eloy, Abreu, Vaughn and Sheets. Something has to give somewhere. 

Grandal has started 48% of his games with the Sox at the catcher position.  Going into his age 33 season I don't thnk anyone can expect that number to jump greatly so a second catcher will get plenty of starts behind the plate.  Sheets will be the odd man out when they acquire a LHH RF.  I think he'll be part of a trade package.

[Y2Jimmy0]

1 minute ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Grandal has started 48% of his games with the Sox at the catcher position.  Going into his age 33 season I don't thnk anyone can expect that number to jump greatly so a second catcher will get plenty of starts behind the plate.  Sheets will be the odd man out when they acquire a LHH RF.  I think he'll be part of a trade package.

I think Andrew Vaughn is a core player. Lets say the new catcher is behind the dish. Grandal is at DH. Abreu will play 1B for the Sox until he decides to leave. Which one of Vaughn/Eloy is sitting in this scenario? 

[Harold's Leg Lift]

2 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

I think Andrew Vaughn is a core player. Lets say the new catcher is behind the dish. Grandal is at DH. Abreu will play 1B for the Sox until he decides to leave. Which one of Vaughn/Eloy is sitting in this scenario? 

I think Vaughn is a core player too but he's not going to play 162 games next season and Eloy certainly won't.  They'll be plenty of AB's for both. 

[Bob Sacamano]

10 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

I think Andrew Vaughn is a core player. Lets say the new catcher is behind the dish. Grandal is at DH. Abreu will play 1B for the Sox until he decides to leave. Which one of Vaughn/Eloy is sitting in this scenario? 

If a tough righty is on the mound, Vaughn I guess? Or in the scenario where you have Grandal at DH/1B, Vaughn goes to RF? The only thing that sucks about that is weakening defense though.