Could Sox have beat Red Sox and Braves?

[kgrittenburg]

the World Champion Braves, I don't think so

[A-Train to 35th]

NO, our defense was terrible. We basically had 1 actual outfielder and sat back as the Braves traded for 4 outfielder at the deadline.  Our biggest need is defense, until we shore that up we're not winning anything.

[EloyJenkins]

11 minutes ago, A-Train to 35th said:

NO, our defense was terrible. We basically had 1 actual outfielder and sat back as the Braves traded for 4 outfielder at the deadline.  Our biggest need is defense, until we shore that up we're not winning anything.

the Braves outfield defense was statistically awful. Robert alone has more value than what they were trotting out. They got hot at the right time and had an unreal bullpen run. that is why they won. 

[kleedawg]

24 minutes ago, A-Train to 35th said:

NO, our defense was terrible. We basically had 1 actual outfielder and sat back as the Braves traded for 4 outfielder at the deadline.  Our biggest need is defense, until we shore that up we're not winning anything.

lol, soler and rosario's defense. 2 DH's playing the outfield. Also D,arnaud is an offensive catcher. Joc & Duval are corner of having to play center field. 

BTW the astros outfield had alvarez and brantley playing the corners. 

[A-Train to 35th]

On 11/3/2021 at 8:14 AM, kleedawg said:

lol, soler and rosario's defense. 2 DH's playing the outfield. Also D,arnaud is an offensive catcher. Joc & Duval are corner of having to play center field. 

BTW the astros outfield had alvarez and brantley playing the corners. 

My point was the Sox needed MLB outfielders due to injuries, but instead of signing any  at the deadline as rent a players, we choose to go with Goodwin, Leury, Vaughn, and Sheets.   With the exception of Goodwin none of the Sox options could be considered an outfielder, and even Goodwin was a stretch.  SO, as long as you suggested it, yes I would have preferred Solar, Duval and Rosario as rent a players to at least catch a ball.  I saw no Sox outfielder with the exception of Robert make a catch like Rosario did in the World Series. And none that would have been named MVP of the World Series like Solar was for his bat.

Edited November 5, 2021 by A-Train to 35th

[A-Train to 35th]

On 11/3/2021 at 8:00 AM, EloyJenkins said:

the Braves outfield defense was statistically awful. Robert alone has more value than what they were trotting out. They got hot at the right time and had an unreal bullpen run. that is why they won. 

I don't know if that's the only reason they won, but I do know we lost a game against Houston in part because Leury misplayed that ball that sailed over his head.

[Balta1701]

10 hours ago, A-Train to 35th said:

I don't know if that's the only reason they won, but I do know we lost a game against Houston in part because Leury misplayed that ball that sailed over his head.

Yeah, but there’s several parts to that single play. Leury was moved there from 2b for no good reason. The pitcher on the mound was a guy we paid a fortune for so he could strike people out and then he forgot how to do that somehow. The game was only tied at that point because the manager left the starter in too long and went to Crochet on a back to back day for no good reason other than to lose the game. The defensive positioning was bad enough that several key balls had trickled past the infielders to set up previous runs and that situation - fix that and it’s a sizeable lead.

An OF would have helped but so could any of those things. There was an OF playing in right who was strong defensively and Tony pulled him because reasons.

[kleedawg]

11 hours ago, A-Train to 35th said:

My point was the Sox needed MLB outfielders due to injuries, but instead of signing any  at the deadline as rent a players, we choose to go with Goodwin, Leury, Vaughn, and Sheets.   With the exception of Goodwin none of the Sox options could be considered an outfielder, and even Goodwin was a stretch.  SO, as long as you suggested it, yes I would have preferred Solar, Duval and Rosario as rent a players to at least catch a ball.  I saw no Sox outfielder with the exception of Robert make a catch like Rosario did in the World Series. And none that would have been named MVP of the World Series like Solar was for his bat.

You mean the lucky catch he made where he wasn't looking at it and it stuck in his glove? How about the routine catch he did not make that fell in front of him? The braves made a BIG gamble trading for a person in rosario that was on the IL and was not due off for quite awhile. They hit lightning in a bottle when he finally became healthy. You must have not watched Engel rob a homer or Vaughn and even eloy make diving catches either. How many games have our outfielders cost us this year? The braves won despite a poor defensive outfield, period.

The sox didn't trade for of's at the deadline because they had roberts and eloy coming back and a big lead in the division. They had pressing needs in the bp and at 2b and did not want to deplete their limited prospects with rentals in positions where they were gaining starters from the il.

Sure, if they had a crystal ball to see that rosario, duval, pedersen, & soler would be lights out in the post season they may have tried to acquire them. But then again so would have the yankees, redsox, astros, brewers, giants, & dodgers.

Edited November 5, 2021 by kleedawg
grammar

[A-Train to 35th]

5 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Yeah, but there’s several parts to that single play. Leury was moved there from 2b for no good reason. The pitcher on the mound was a guy we paid a fortune for so he could strike people out and then he forgot how to do that somehow. The game was only tied at that point because the manager left the starter in too long and went to Crochet on a back to back day for no good reason other than to lose the game. The defensive positioning was bad enough that several key balls had trickled past the infielders to set up previous runs and that situation - fix that and it’s a sizeable lead.

An OF would have helped but so could any of those things. There was an OF playing in right who was strong defensively and Tony pulled him because reasons.

That was a bone-headed move when Tony pulled Engel I agree, I couldn't believe what I was seeing when he made the move nor will I ever understand it.

[A-Train to 35th]

4 hours ago, kleedawg said:

You mean the lucky catch he made where he wasn't looking at it and it stuck in his glove? How about the routine catch he did not make that fell in front of him? The braves made a BIG gamble trading for a person in rosario that was on the IL and was not due off for quite awhile. They hit lightning in a bottle when he finally became healthy. You must have not watched Engel rob a homer or Vaughn and even eloy make diving catches either. How many games have our outfielders cost us this year? The braves won despite a poor defensive outfield, period.

The sox didn't trade for of's at the deadline because they had roberts and eloy coming back and a big lead in the division. They had pressing needs in the bp and at 2b and did not want to deplete their limited prospects with rentals in positions where they were gaining starters from the il.

Sure, if they had a crystal ball to see that rosario, duval, pedersen, & soler would be lights out in the post season they may have tried to acquire them. But then again so would have the yankees, redsox, astros, brewers, giants, & dodgers.

I never suggested they sign Rosario or Solar in my initial post.  I mentioned that we needed defensive outfielders to fill in for injured players. Although Eloy was coming back, and yes he did make some nice plays the second half I still don't consider him a defensive outfielder.  I wanted Marte, who would have helped on the basees, hitting, and defense.  Sorry I didn't mention that earlier I was just using the Braves as an example of a team filling a need in their outfield.

Edited November 5, 2021 by A-Train to 35th
sp

[kleedawg]

2 minutes ago, A-Train to 35th said:

I never suggested they sign Rosario or Solar, you did.  I mentioned that we needed defensive outfielders to fill in for injured players. Although Eloy was coming back and yes he did make some nice plays the second half I still don't consider him a defensive outfielder.  I wanted Marte, who would have helped on the basees, hitting, and defense.  Sorry I didn't mention that earlier I was just using the Braves as an example of a team filling a need in their outfield.

I never suggested we sign soler or rosario?!  I didn't want either. I said the sox didn't aggressively go after an of because they Had Eloy & Roberts coming back. I wasn't implying that eloy was good defensively. They had engel, & hamilton already on the roster for defense.

[Balta1701]

41 minutes ago, kleedawg said:

I never suggested we sign soler or rosario?!  I didn't want either. I said the sox didn't aggressively go after an of because they Had Eloy & Roberts coming back. I wasn't implying that eloy was good defensively. They had engel, & hamilton already on the roster for defense.

If there's a lesson while comparing the Sox and Braves that we might want to think about for the offseason, it's the importance of depth. The White Sox, as you note here, said "Engel and Hamilton are good enough" - Hamilton didn't make the postseason roster and Engel was pulled in game 2 to try to generate offense. Had the White Sox had an available OF option, perhaps he's on the roster instead of Vaughn, and if they're trying to generate offense, they pinch hit that OF option for Engel rather than Cesar, and now they have an OF out there instead of Leury. The Braves likely never thought "I'm trading for a world series MVP", but instead they thought "Acuna's hurt, we flat out need outfielders, we're going to take chances on these guys who don't cost much." Maybe "Eloy and Robert coming back from injury and a banged-up Engel and an exhausted Vaughn" just wasn't enough, and some of that "cover your bases" thinking would have been a big benefit for the White Sox.

[Dick Allen]

8 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

If there's a lesson while comparing the Sox and Braves that we might want to think about for the offseason, it's the importance of depth. The White Sox, as you note here, said "Engel and Hamilton are good enough" - Hamilton didn't make the postseason roster and Engel was pulled in game 2 to try to generate offense. Had the White Sox had an available OF option, perhaps he's on the roster instead of Vaughn, and if they're trying to generate offense, they pinch hit that OF option for Engel rather than Cesar, and now they have an OF out there instead of Leury. The Braves likely never thought "I'm trading for a world series MVP", but instead they thought "Acuna's hurt, we flat out need outfielders, we're going to take chances on these guys who don't cost much." Maybe "Eloy and Robert coming back from injury and a banged-up Engel and an exhausted Vaughn" just wasn't enough, and some of that "cover your bases" thinking would have been a big benefit for the White Sox.

They needed OF because they didn’t have depth. The Soler trade is hindsight at its best. Did you have any posts saying the Sox need to acquire this negative WAR player? 
 

The Sox had plenty of these types already around, enough where Eaton who was in the same boat was sent packing.

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

They needed OF because they didn’t have depth. The Soler trade is hindsight at its best. Did you have any posts saying the Sox need to acquire this negative WAR player? 
 

The Sox had plenty of these types already around, enough where Eaton who was in the same boat was sent packing.

Nope but I was definitely up for beating the Yankees deal for Gallo.

[southsider2k5]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Nope but I was definitely up for beating the Yankees deal for Gallo.

Who the Yankees now regret.

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Who the Yankees now regret.

I wonder if the White Sox got above or below a .707 OPS out of their right fielders after the deadline?

Anyway, rather than assigning blame here, the question I pose is - are we ok with Engel and Vaughn being the main OF backups next year? Or Romy as the main IF backup? Because when you come to me in July saying “no one could possibly have predicted two of our starters would get hurt at the same position”, I will have the same response as last year.

[A-Train to 35th]

1 hour ago, kleedawg said:

I never suggested we sign soler or rosario?!  I didn't want either. I said the sox didn't aggressively go after an of because they Had Eloy & Roberts coming back. I wasn't implying that eloy was good defensively. They had engel, & hamilton already on the roster for defense.

Agree, I still can't understand why Tony moved Leury from 2B to RF replacing Engel in game 2 against Houston.

Edited November 5, 2021 by A-Train to 35th

[South Side Hit Men]

3 hours ago, A-Train to 35th said:

Agree, I still can't understand why Tony moved Leury from 2B to RF replacing Engel in game 2 against Houston.

Because he is a complete fucking idiot, obsessed with platoons and unwritten rules. He was completely owned by Dusty Baker, during the season, in the post-season.

The bottom line is the Sox never have advanced under La Russa and likely never will.