The MLB lockout is lifted!

[Kyyle23]

1 minute ago, hi8is said:

Poop.

For once I will agree with this

[poppysox]

8 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

For sure.  Is this the part where I should call you a boomer now or are you back to your position of not calling names 

"Round and round it goes...where it stops...nobody knows."

[ron883]

6 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

Wait you aren't watching or you are watching.  Please I must know it's very important we all need to know which gauntlet you are throwing down

If the season is shortened to 60 games, he's switching his allegiance to the Northside with me. 

Edited December 24, 2021 by ron883

[poppysox]

25 minutes ago, ron883 said:

If the season is shortened to 60 games, he's switching his allegiance to the Northside with me. 

The Northsiders would be just as guilty as the WS.  I might try to get interested in minor league baseball (Southbend Cubs).  I was a frequent game goer for the Corpus Christi Hooks AA team when I lived in Texas.  Good baseball without Major League prices.

[hi8is]

1 hour ago, Kyyle23 said:

For once I will agree with this

It happens all the time, despite if we agree to it or not.

[southsider2k5]

11 hours ago, poppysox said:

If I am the average MLB baseball player making 4.17 million per year...I would be asking myself what's in it for me.  Not much would be my answer.

If you don't think that the players are thinking of more millions,  you missed the boat.

[poppysox]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

If you don't think that the players are thinking of more millions,  you missed the boat.

There are employees in every profession that feel underpaid.  However, not many professions have the salaries of professional baseball players.  I don't think many players feel underpaid in reality.  I haven't seen any explanation of how any ask from the union would improve the average player's compensation at all.   I have used Leury as an example since we all know he signed a three-year contract at 5.5 million per year.  He is a nice but average player IMO.  My belief is that Leury feels well compensated and is just happy as a clam with his pay envelope.  He will not be happy to miss out for let's say 3 months of the largest paychecks of his life for a new deal that will gain him absolutely nothing.  Lastly, it seems to me that players being allowed free agency sooner would play into the hands of a few teams who already have a money advantage over the competition.  There is no reason why I want to give the Yankees another advantage over my team.

[NWINFan]

12 hours ago, poppysox said:

There are employees in every profession that feel underpaid.  However, not many professions have the salaries of professional baseball players.  I don't think many players feel underpaid in reality.  I haven't seen any explanation of how any ask from the union would improve the average player's compensation at all.   I have used Leury as an example since we all know he signed a three-year contract at 5.5 million per year.  He is a nice but average player IMO.  My belief is that Leury feels well compensated and is just happy as a clam with his pay envelope.  He will not be happy to miss out for let's say 3 months of the largest paychecks of his life for a new deal that will gain him absolutely nothing.  Lastly, it seems to me that players being allowed free agency sooner would play into the hands of a few teams who already have a money advantage over the competition.  There is no reason why I want to give the Yankees another advantage over my team.

From the very beginning of free agency, the owners abused the system as rich teams tried to buy pennants and they drove the salaries up and they created the current baseball economics.

Yes, it is true that not many professions earn what baseball players do. But few people can hit a 95-mph fastball, and few can throw one.  And baseball careers can be very short.

Finally, a lockout is the owners' way of stonewalling. That failed in 1994 and will fail now. And I also reject your view that the players take a lower position than the owners. The hell with the owners. No one owes them anything. Let them be satisfied with what they have.

[poppysox]

14 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

From the very beginning of free agency, the owners abused the system as rich teams tried to buy pennants and they drove the salaries up and they created the current baseball economics.

Yes, it is true that not many professions earn what baseball players do. But few people can hit a 95-mph fastball, and few can throw one.  And baseball careers can be very short.

Finally, a lockout is the owners' way of stonewalling. That failed in 1994 and will fail now. And I also reject your view that the players take a lower position than the owners. The hell with the owners. No one owes them anything. Let them be satisfied with what they have.

The owners will be satisfied with what they have.  They will not be satisfied to make less money so that the players can have more.  The fan will be paying for whatever it is that the players win.  This is a no-win situation for the fan IMO. 

[CentralChamps21]

2 hours ago, poppysox said:

The owners will be satisfied with what they have.  They will not be satisfied to make less money so that the players can have more.  The fan will be paying for whatever it is that the players win.  This is a no-win situation for the fan IMO. 

This is why the players have to be able to go so far as the owners making zero money before they will get any concessions out of them. If they players aren't willing to sacrifice an entire season for long-term gains, then they might as well cave now and have a full season in 2022.

[NWINFan]

3 hours ago, poppysox said:

The owners will be satisfied with what they have.  They will not be satisfied to make less money so that the players can have more.  The fan will be paying for whatever it is that the players win.  This is a no-win situation for the fan IMO. 

Fans' concerns really don't matter to MLB. The owners certainly don't care. If JR really wanted championships, he would have more than one in 40 years. 

[Balta1701]

21 hours ago, CentralChamps21 said:

This is why the players have to be able to go so far as the owners making zero money before they will get any concessions out of them. If they players aren't willing to sacrifice an entire season for long-term gains, then they might as well cave now and have a full season in 2022.

The worry - over the next CBA, fixing the economics of baseball, even partially, is worth at least $5 billion to the players, possibly even more. Keeping the current broken setup is worth $5 billion or more to the owners. This season - is worth roughly $5 billion to the players and owners each.

It costs them as much to cave as it does to sit out the whole season. That’s a setup where both sides are likely to hold fast, they’re fighting over amounts of money comparable to an entire season.

[poppysox]

On 12/25/2021 at 1:35 PM, CentralChamps21 said:

This is why the players have to be able to go so far as the owners making zero money before they will get any concessions out of them. If they players aren't willing to sacrifice an entire season for long-term gains, then they might as well cave now and have a full season in 2022.

The number of players willing to sacrifice a full year of their short careers will be very small indeed.  Those long-term gains you speak of would perhaps benefit future players but not many players who are currently in the system.  Employees frequently accept deals that create different classes of employees for current and future employees.  Employees always seem to vote to improve their current situation rather than strike for future generations.  This has happened in many industries including auto and airlines to name a few.  I just don't believe that the majority of players are feeling badly treated and underpaid.  

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, poppysox said:

The number of players willing to sacrifice a full year of their short careers will be very small indeed.  Those long-term gains you speak of would perhaps benefit future players but not many players who are currently in the system.  Employees frequently accept deals that create different classes of employees for current and future employees.  Employees always seem to vote to improve their current situation rather than strike for future generations.  This has happened in many industries including auto and airlines to name a few.  I just don't believe that the majority of players are feeling badly treated and underpaid.  

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, poppysox said:

The number of players willing to sacrifice a full year of their short careers will be very small indeed.  Those long-term gains you speak of would perhaps benefit future players but not many players who are currently in the system.  Employees frequently accept deals that create different classes of employees for current and future employees.  Employees always seem to vote to improve their current situation rather than strike for future generations.  This has happened in many industries including auto and airlines to name a few.  I just don't believe that the majority of players are feeling badly treated and underpaid.  

If this were even remotely true, they would have caved to the owners demands months ago and avoided a lockout entirely.

[ChiSox59]

19 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

If this were even remotely true, they would have caved to the owners demands months ago and avoided a lockout entirely.

I don't follow the structure of the MLBPA close enough to really know - so this is a legit question.  Do the individual players themselves really get much of a say?  Isn't it moreso up to Tony Clark and the board of players, and the rest of the players are just sort of along for the ride?  Obviously Tony Clark and the union are supposed to represent what the greater group of players themselves want. But is there any true polling amongst the players that goes on with respect to these decisions? 

I have to imagine once we get closer to ST, there is a solid contingent of players that are going to want to go to work and make money as opposed to continue fighting for the extra scraps from their employers.  Not taking the owners side here, but after all, baseball players - even ones on pre-arb deals - are paid handsomely for playing a game.  They've certainly earned that right and I think there is plenty that players have to argue for - but ultimately - are they willing to potentially give up a years pay and a year of their shelf life to fight it? I have to imagine that is pretty split amongst the players. 

[southsider2k5]

6 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I don't follow the structure of the MLBPA close enough to really know - so this is a legit question.  Do the individual players themselves really get much of a say?  Isn't it moreso up to Tony Clark and the board of players, and the rest of the players are just sort of along for the ride?  Obviously Tony Clark and the union are supposed to represent what the greater group of players themselves want. But is there any true polling amongst the players that goes on with respect to these decisions? 

I have to imagine once we get closer to ST, there is a solid contingent of players that are going to want to go to work and make money as opposed to continue fighting for the extra scraps from their employers.  Not taking the owners side here, but after all, baseball players - even ones on pre-arb deals - are paid handsomely for playing a game.  They've certainly earned that right and I think there is plenty that players have to argue for - but ultimately - are they willing to potentially give up a years pay and a year of their shelf life to fight it? I have to imagine that is pretty split amongst the players. 

You could look at this this way, but you could also do the same for the owners.  Especially the guys that didn't get sweetheart deals from the state and have TONS of debt to pay off, such as our friends to the north, they have big bills to pay, even if the game isn't being played, after taking a pretty sizeable revenue hit in 2020.  I am not sure the owners are in a much better place than the players.

[oldsox]

7 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I don't follow the structure of the MLBPA close enough to really know - so this is a legit question.  Do the individual players themselves really get much of a say?  Isn't it moreso up to Tony Clark and the board of players, and the rest of the players are just sort of along for the ride?  Obviously Tony Clark and the union are supposed to represent what the greater group of players themselves want. But is there any true polling amongst the players that goes on with respect to these decisions? 

I have to imagine once we get closer to ST, there is a solid contingent of players that are going to want to go to work and make money as opposed to continue fighting for the extra scraps from their employers.  Not taking the owners side here, but after all, baseball players - even ones on pre-arb deals - are paid handsomely for playing a game.  They've certainly earned that right and I think there is plenty that players have to argue for - but ultimately - are they willing to potentially give up a years pay and a year of their shelf life to fight it? I have to imagine that is pretty split amongst the players. 

Each team has a player rep.  Strong opinions surely will get heard.

[Ducksnort]

1 minute ago, oldsox said:

Each team has a player rep.  Strong opinions surely will get heard.

Who's the Sox rep? Seems like it would be Giolito

[ChiSox59]

14 minutes ago, ScooterMcGee said:

Who's the Sox rep? Seems like it would be Giolito

 I read some comments from Giolito a couple weeks ago that sure made it seem like he thinks this whole thing is stupid.  He understands it is a business, but his comments  made it sound like he's not all that passionate about this and would like to report to ST as normal.  I am sure he'd love a bigger piece of the pie like anyone would, but his comments certainly didn't reflect a guy that would be willing to sit this year out fighting for it. 

[Bob Sacamano]

21 minutes ago, ScooterMcGee said:

Who's the Sox rep? Seems like it would be Giolito

I'm pretty sure it is.

[Balta1701]

29 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

 I read some comments from Giolito a couple weeks ago that sure made it seem like he thinks this whole thing is stupid.  He understands it is a business, but his comments  made it sound like he's not all that passionate about this and would like to report to ST as normal.  I am sure he'd love a bigger piece of the pie like anyone would, but his comments certainly didn't reflect a guy that would be willing to sit this year out fighting for it. 

Quote

Semien and Giolito largely echoed that sentiment. The former pointed out that MLB could’ve continued to negotiate rather than locking the players out upon the expiration of the previous collective bargaining agreement. The latter plainly stated that the MLBPA was hoping to return to the table as soon as possible. “We’re here, we’re ready to negotiate,” Giolito told Rose. “We’re pretty much waiting on MLB. We’ve made our proposals, we’ve made multiple proposals right before they decided to lock us out. They said no, they weren’t interested at the time. … We’re not going to negotiate against ourselves. It takes two to tango.”

…

The most pressing issues in talks — the competitive balance tax, the service time structure, salaries for early-career players, etc. — have been discussed ad nauseam in recent weeks. While speaking with Rose, each of Britton, Semien and Giolito argued that the union was more concerned than the league is with competitive balance. “We want every team to be trying to win year-in and year-out,” Britton said. “We think that’s fair to the fanbases and that’s what we want. We’re going to continue to send that message.” Giolito took a similar tack, alluding to clubs that have slashed their MLB payrolls during rebuilds. “We want thirty teams competing, trying to field the best possible players so that the game is more competitive. That’s kind of what we are stressing with our proposals: let’s make the game better for everybody, number one being the fans.”

…

Britton and Giolito each pointed to last year’s pandemic freeze as a potential strengthening factor for the union. That wasn’t technically a work stoppage, as the game was paused due to national emergency. Yet the return-to-play discussions proved contentious, with the MLBPA eventually filing a grievance alleging that MLB didn’t negotiate in good faith to play as many games as possible last year during a season with essentially zero gate revenue.

“(Waiting it out) is part of the process right now,” Giolito said. “ Going through the pandemic year, kind of fighting for what we wanted as players, really coming together, communicating well, that puts us in a good position now. … Even if things are delayed a little bit, we’re here, we’re ready to negotiate. We’re going to keep pushing for getting a season going as soon as possible.“

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2021/12/britton-giolito-and-semien-discuss-lockout.html

[hi8is]

This sucks.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

Narratives getting blowed up left and right. 

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Narratives getting blowed up left and right. 

?