The MLB lockout is lifted!

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, Bunt Ritual said:

This isn't really true. It was more than implied that they would play these games with Eloy and Robert if they didn't sign those extensions before their respective debut seasons started. 

Eloy literally wrote an article for the Players Tribune called “I’m Ready” while the white Sox were saying he had to “check the boxes”

 

[poppysox]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Literally no one except you has said sit out the entire year.

And what you have said about the players positions, speaks very clearly on what you think of it. 

You have reading comprehension issues.  Be well.

[Quin]

10 minutes ago, poppysox said:

I didn't say anything about legitimate reasons to fight for more gains.  I have said repeatedly that "the average player" feels well paid IMO and doesn't want to miss very many paychecks.  This sitting out the year crap is just not going to happen.  No one is dying on any bridge that I know of.  I have stated my view until I have no other way to state it.  Come back when the lock-out ends.  In my view, it will be sooner than you think.

Wasn't Madrigal (average to above average) upset that he was held down until the Super 2 deadline passed because it meant he'd lose a year of arbitration? Therefore, he's not feeling "well paid" at the time (cause he was being held in the minors) and feels it's hampering his future opportunities.

And if they change that rule, isn't that for the betterment of future players? Cause you said they're only arguing for current players.

But somehow, this is about the mega contracts???

[poppysox]

4 minutes ago, Quin said:

Wasn't Madrigal (average to above average) upset that he was held down until the Super 2 deadline passed because it meant he'd lose a year of arbitration? Therefore, he's not feeling "well paid" at the time (cause he was being held in the minors) and feels it's hampering his future opportunities.

And if they change that rule, isn't that for the betterment of future players? Cause you said they're only arguing for current players.

But somehow, this is about the mega contracts???

Madrigal was drafted in 2018 and was promoted to the big club in July of 2020.  I don't know if Madrigal felt "well paid" or not but he would have a very little argument about being held down improperly IMO.  Kris Bryant was drafted in 2013 and after a great Spring in 2015 was still sent out for more "seasoning".  Most fans think the motivation was service time rules rather than his readiness.  I don't disagree and have stated that something needs to be tightened up for what seem to be service-time abuses.  Those abuses are not frequent and very hard to prove.  The White Sox have brought up players earlier than normal and done an excellent job of extending them pre-arbitration IMO.  

[Balta1701]

23 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Madrigal was drafted in 2018 and was promoted to the big club in July of 2020.  I don't know if Madrigal felt "well paid" or not but he would have a very little argument about being held down improperly IMO.  Kris Bryant was drafted in 2013 and after a great Spring in 2015 was still sent out for more "seasoning".  Most fans think the motivation was service time rules rather than his readiness.  I don't disagree and have stated that something needs to be tightened up for what seem to be service-time abuses.  Those abuses are not frequent and very hard to prove.  The White Sox have brought up players earlier than normal and done an excellent job of extending them pre-arbitration IMO.  

The only guys the White Sox didn’t play some sort of service time game with were Vaughn and Kopech. They are not the worst service time manipulator but they’ve done a ton. When one of their own players is writing an article called “I’m ready” because he’s a 21 year old who wants to play in the big leagues and is told no he has to continue destroying minor league pitching because of money, and can readily see that’s bullshit, that tells you how much of it they did. 

The White Sox just used it as a threat to force guys to sign team friendly extensions. Those extensions are the abuses, just a different form from Bryant’s.

Tte fact that so much of this abuse happened is a clear reason why the players won’t break, as you keep insisting they will. It’s everywhere and they all want it stopped.

[Tnetennba]

2 hours ago, poppysox said:

Watch!  It's far more than remotely true.  The Kris Brandt thing is their most legitimate complaint and that affects relatively few people.  Literally, no one from the White Sox has been jerked around over the qualifying time issue.  As a matter of fact...many posters blame the WS for not playing the qualifying time game with Kopech.

Service Time manipulation is so commonplace that its discussed on message boards and on social media.  Kris Bryant is an outlier in filing a grievance, but every single team considers when to start the service time clock on top prospects.  Claiming it affects "relatively few people" is rather specious.

1 hour ago, poppysox said:

I didn't say anything about legitimate reasons to fight for more gains.  I have said repeatedly that "the average player" feels well paid IMO and doesn't want to miss very many paychecks.  This sitting out the year crap is just not going to happen.  No one is dying on any bridge that I know of.  I have stated my view until I have no other way to state it.  Come back when the lock-out ends.  In my view, it will be sooner than you think.

Please point to any source of evidence that "the average player" feels well paid.  Didn't you also purport that all players are millionaires?  But suddenly they are worried about missing paychecks?  

[poppysox]

26 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

The only guys the White Sox didn’t play some sort of service time game with were Vaughn and Kopech. They are not the worst service time manipulator but they’ve done a ton. When one of their own players is writing an article called “I’m ready” because he’s a 21 year old who wants to play in the big leagues and is told no he has to continue destroying minor league pitching because of money, and can readily see that’s bullshit, that tells you how much of it they did. 

The White Sox just used it as a threat to force guys to sign team friendly extensions. Those extensions are the abuses, just a different form from Bryant’s.

Tte fact that so much of this abuse happened is a clear reason why the players won’t break, as you keep insisting they will. It’s everywhere and they all want it stopped.

We will see, won't we?

[poppysox]

8 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

Service Time manipulation is so commonplace that its discussed on message boards and on social media.  Kris Bryant is an outlier in filing a grievance, but every single team considers when to start the service time clock on top prospects.  Claiming it affects "relatively few people" is rather specious.

Please point to any source of evidence that "the average player" feels well paid.  Didn't you also purport that all players are millionaires?  But suddenly they are worried about missing paychecks?  

Neither of us can prove his position to be correct.  Time will tell.

[Balta1701]

Just now, poppysox said:

We will see, won't we?

I will tell you this - your statements that the players are going to cave and the owners are right to offer them nothing disagrees with your statement just now that service time manipulation needs to be changed. 

[poppysox]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I will tell you this - your statements that the players are going to cave and the owners are right to offer them nothing disagrees with your statement just now that service time manipulation needs to be changed. 

Poop!

[Balta1701]

7 minutes ago, poppysox said:

We will see, won't we?

Second thought - you know what? I hope we don’t see. I hope the owners recognize that there’s a legit problem and make a fair counterproposal and this gets solved without losing games. 

But what I fear is that the lack of any reply by the owners and no fair proposals made means that the Avenue you and Reinsdorf advocate of letting the lockout continue forever to finally break the union is exactly what the owners will do.

[poppysox]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

Literally no one except you has said sit out the entire year.

And what you have said about the players positions, speaks very clearly on what you think of it. 

Nothing new here to respond to.  

[poppysox]

14 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I will tell you this - your statements that the players are going to cave and the owners are right to offer them nothing disagrees with your statement just now that service time manipulation needs to be changed. 

Many of you use this little debate device of restating the other debaters' words with your personal slant to make it what you wanted him to say rather than what he is saying.  I have never used the term "players will cave in and the owners are right" in any of these discussions.  I have said the majority of players have little to gain and don't want to miss paychecks and whatever the players win cost-wise will be passed on to the fan.  My statement about service time manipulation stated I was referring to Kris Bryant type of situation as you well know.  I know you are being deliberately obtuse when you restate my positions so no offense taken.

[poppysox]

20 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Second thought - you know what? I hope we don’t see. I hope the owners recognize that there’s a legit problem and make a fair counterproposal and this gets solved without losing games. 

But what I fear is that the lack of any reply by the owners and no fair proposals made means that the Avenue you and Reinsdorf advocate of letting the lockout continue forever to finally break the union is exactly what the owners will do.

There you go again.  "Lack of reply by owners and no fair proposals"...where do you get this stuff.  Because no one is keeping us up to date on negotiations doesn't mean they are not sitting down at this very moment.  You have player bias and you accuse me of owner bias.  You favor the players getting as much compensation as they can and I think they are well compensated and should fix a few unfair arbitration issues and start Spring baseball on time.  

[southsider2k5]

16 minutes ago, poppysox said:

There you go again.  "Lack of reply by owners and no fair proposals"...where do you get this stuff.  Because no one is keeping us up to date on negotiations doesn't mean they are not sitting down at this very moment.  You have player bias and you accuse me of owner bias.  You favor the players getting as much compensation as they can and I think they are well compensated and should fix a few unfair arbitration issues and start Spring baseball on time.  

Have you followed this topic at all?  The players are saying exactly this.  They owners aren't responding to proposals and are refusing to talk about economic topics.  The news is out there, no idea why you are ignoring it.

[Tnetennba]

1 hour ago, poppysox said:

Neither of us can prove his position to be correct.  Time will tell.

Time will tell what exactly?  Never mind, don’t answer, it won’t be based in factual evidence anyway. 

[Balta1701]

29 minutes ago, poppysox said:

There you go again.  "Lack of reply by owners and no fair proposals"...where do you get this stuff.  Because no one is keeping us up to date on negotiations doesn't mean they are not sitting down at this very moment.  You have player bias and you accuse me of owner bias.  You favor the players getting as much compensation as they can and I think they are well compensated and should fix a few unfair arbitration issues and start Spring baseball on time.  

I literally quoted someone named..."Lucas Giolito", whoever, that is, in a post earlier today. I guess maybe that person is fake?

Quote

Semien and Giolito largely echoed that sentiment. The former pointed out that MLB could’ve continued to negotiate rather than locking the players out upon the expiration of the previous collective bargaining agreement. The latter plainly stated that the MLBPA was hoping to return to the table as soon as possible. “We’re here, we’re ready to negotiate,” Giolito told Rose. “We’re pretty much waiting on MLB. We’ve made our proposals, we’ve made multiple proposals right before they decided to lock us out. They said no, they weren’t interested at the time. … We’re not going to negotiate against ourselves. It takes two to tango.”

 

[poppysox]

39 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Have you followed this topic at all?  The players are saying exactly this.  They owners aren't responding to proposals and are refusing to talk about economic topics.  The news is out there, no idea why you are ignoring it.

No...I am not listening to the noise created by people who have a vested interest in trying to sway fan opinion.

[poppysox]

31 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

Time will tell what exactly?  Never mind, don’t answer, it won’t be based in factual evidence anyway. 

Yeah...I am unable to voice my opinions clearly as you have.

[poppysox]

31 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I literally quoted someone named..."Lucas Giolito", whoever, that is, in a post earlier today. I guess maybe that person is fake?

 

Yeah...I saw a similar quote from owners saying they had made a number of offers to include universal DH and improvements in the minor league conditions but received no response.  I notice your example of players stating opinions is from two high-priced players who are not the average players that I have referred to many times.  Just for the record ...I hope this lockout ends tomorrow and I don't really care if the owners give in or hold firm.  I enjoyed baseball better when my players stayed on the WS and were associated with the WS team.  This new era of players playing for the highest bidder will ultimately ruin the game.  

[Chicago White Sox]

Being a baseball fan is legit brutal right now.

[Sleepy Harold]

3 hours ago, poppysox said:

Yeah...I saw a similar quote from owners saying they had made a number of offers to include universal DH and improvements in the minor league conditions but received no response.  I notice your example of players stating opinions is from two high-priced players who are not the average players that I have referred to many times.  Just for the record ...I hope this lockout ends tomorrow and I don't really care if the owners give in or hold firm.  I enjoyed baseball better when my players stayed on the WS and were associated with the WS team.  This new era of players playing for the highest bidder will ultimately ruin the game.  

The players doing the capitalism will ruin the game? I'd suggest watching the interview Rose had with Giolito, Britton, and Semien. It was informative and shed some light on aspects of the process that I was unaware of. Not expecting it to change you mind or anything, but it's interesting. 

Edited December 30, 2021 by Sleepy Harold

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Yeah...I saw a similar quote from owners saying they had made a number of offers to include universal DH and improvements in the minor league conditions but received no response.  I notice your example of players stating opinions is from two high-priced players who are not the average players that I have referred to many times.  Just for the record ...I hope this lockout ends tomorrow and I don't really care if the owners give in or hold firm.  I enjoyed baseball better when my players stayed on the WS and were associated with the WS team.  This new era of players playing for the highest bidder will ultimately ruin the game.  

“New era”? You really are Jerry Reinsdorf. Anyway, I have zero problem with the concept of pro sports being a handful of professional players who are well compensated for their skills, and success determined by how good of a job teams do at coaching and using their resources to build teams.

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, poppysox said:

Yeah...I saw a similar quote from owners saying they had made a number of offers to include universal DH and improvements in the minor league conditions but received no response.  I notice your example of players stating opinions is from two high-priced players who are not the average players that I have referred to many times.  Just for the record ...I hope this lockout ends tomorrow and I don't really care if the owners give in or hold firm.  I enjoyed baseball better when my players stayed on the WS and were associated with the WS team.  This new era of players playing for the highest bidder will ultimately ruin the game.  

Because the player's union tends to have reps that have more experience...and they are the ones the press most frequently goes to for quotes.  In the same way, a first or second year teacher isn't going to the media and bypass their own union reps with 15-30 years of prior experience in dealing with administration/negotiations. And Giolito's still not really making big money...yet, fwiw.

Edited December 30, 2021 by caulfield12

[Tnetennba]

1 hour ago, poppysox said:

Yeah...I saw a similar quote from owners saying they had made a number of offers to include universal DH and improvements in the minor league conditions but received no response.  I notice your example of players stating opinions is from two high-priced players who are not the average players that I have referred to many times.  Just for the record ...I hope this lockout ends tomorrow and I don't really care if the owners give in or hold firm.  I enjoyed baseball better when my players stayed on the WS and were associated with the WS team.  This new era of players playing for the highest bidder will ultimately ruin the game.  

"This new era of players playing for the highest bidder will ultimately ruin the game. "  Based on what exactly?  Last I checked Baseball revenues have continually risen, and the players share hasn't, and the owners locked said players out because they don't want to share those higher revenues with the very players the create those revenues.  So how exactly has "players playing for the highest bidder" aka trying to maximize their earnings during a limited playing career ruined the game?  Baseball seems pretty popular to me.

Lucas Giolito made $4,1500,00 last season and is still on his rookie deal.  Not exactly a high priced player in today's game.  I know you are stating your own opinions here, something you are completely free to do, but a little fact checking goes a long way.