poppysox Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 3 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said: Honestly outside of Curt Flood (only you and I are old enough to remember this reference) the players don't give a damn about those coming after them...nor should they. When I'm negotiating my salary I am not thinking about the good of the other workers in the office, or the benefits of those in college that will come and take my job in a few years...I just want mine. In fact if I can squeeze my company with the knowledge that I will increase my personal wealth in ten years but the company will be bankrupt after I leave? Sign me up. That's the problem with the pro player argument/anti owner. Everyone is in it for themselves including the fans (we want baseball and for our teams to have a fair shot at winning occasionally) . I think really the biggest challenge is within the ownership room...Dodgers are fine with allowing unlimited free agency because they have all the money. Rays want long time control over young players because they are good at development. How do you square these things...because if you don't...the Dodgers will win every year and baseball will die from boredom. I'm glad to not be the guy negotiating that contract with you. I was always among the folks that valued enjoying my job over the pay. Strangely...the pay seemed to take care of itself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 12 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said: If you look back the last thirty years White Sox attendance is about 20,000 fans a game except in years where they compete and then it would average 30,000 (rough numbers for the argument). 10,000 fans a game x $81 games x $100 a game is $81 million . If the owner businessman (I know I've argued this before in a lot of other threads) just wants to maintain a small profit (the real wealth comes from franchise appreciation) yes...tanking means they cut payroll by $80 million and contending means they raise it by $80 million. All businesses try to "bleed every cent out of you". $7 for $0.50 worth of popcorn at a movie theater? But they are all based around pricing models. Some big retailers were happy to run at a loss because their "real" business was real estate speculation. Run the business to pay the light bill and wait for the underlying asset to go up. Baseball ownership is really no different. Herb Kohl (retail genius) bought the Bucks for $18 million, lost money every year, and then sold them for $550 million. That's the game. BUT, and so many people seem lost on this, real estate CAN go down in value. If you pay $3 billion for the White Sox and baseball manages to bungle their way out of popularity...you could see your $3 billion decline to $2 billion in ten years. Some speculation that this is happening with NBA franchise values the last few years. In a sense a sports franchise is like any collectible. It is never worth its underlying asset (the stream of income from the business) but is worth things because of it's scarcity. If that asset losses its popularity (Beanie Babies, 1970's baseball cards, Crypto) the asset can plummet in value. This is ALL the owners care about...but it plays in our favor...most don't care about the nickels in annual cost/expense that is being haggled over...they care about the golden goose. In some sense this "battle" going on keeps baseball in the national debate which may be their goal. Who knows. If you and I had the things the owners have to make their profits look smaller we would all have incomes that wouldn't require paying tax. If you really think franchise values keep going up even though owners only generate enough revenue to keep the lights on (JR doesn't even have to pay the light bill), you have drunk the kool-aid. It's funny, the pro teams that have to publicly report their incomes serm to have no problem paying the bills. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 1 hour ago, Spicy gar said: Another reason to blame owners. Tell them to pay their fucking taxes. The problem is fans don't want to lose "their team" to another city who will give away the tax revenue to bring a team to their city so the owners get cities to bid against each other. And neither side needs any water carrying. The players with thank the fans then charge a kid $10 for an autograph. The owners will keep making huge profits while fleecing the taxpayers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 17 minutes ago, NWINFan said: The simple fact is that baseball economics changed some time ago. Fans who went to 3-5 games a year used to matter and now they don't. Fans who sat in the bleachers used to matter. Now it is the people who sit in the sky boxes. Why should the owners or the players care about the average fan? We can't put up millions of dollars to give stadiums dumb ass names or can we provide corporate sponsorships or pay a ton of money to sit in some special section. I don't plan on attending a major league game this year. There is an un-affiliated minor league team not far from me. There is no cost for parking, and ticket places are more than reasonable. My daughter worked for the team for two summers and had the time of her life, so I feel a little loyalty. The beer will still be cold. The sun will still be warm. And I still can watch baseball. Not major league caliber, but I will still watch baseball. I am tired of the arrogance of MLB and its demands for blind loyalty. They are not entitled to 3,000.000 in attendance and expect fans to sit in some stupid, insane upper deck. They can keep their skyboxes and stadiums that cater to the rich. The hell with the lockout. I am in agreement with everything you said here. When I lived in Texas I was a semi-frequent visitor to Hooks games. As you say...a nice day in the sunshine at a fraction of the price and aggravations that go with being a fan at the big league level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 I am quite enjoying the many variations of this running meme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 12 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: If you and I had the things the owners have to make their profits look smaller we would all have incomes that wouldn't require paying tax. If you really think franchise values keep going up even though owners only generate enough revenue to keep the lights on (JR doesn't even have to pay the light bill), you have drunk the kool-aid. It's funny, the pro teams that have to publicly report their incomes serm to have no problem paying the bills. I think this is what Poppy is talking about "I have drunk the Kool aid" just seems like a pointless personal attack that make message boards ugly. But yes, I think a baseball team is closer to a Picasso than a hardware store. Sure there is a value to positive operating income to some degree. Manhattan high rises don't let tenants in for free...but much of the real estate value is the tax free appreciation of scare assets. If you want to argue otherwise...Steve Cohen paid $2.5 billion for the Mets. A fair return on that investment would be 10% a year. You think the Mets made more than $250 million in profits? Last year the Met's had $230 million in player payroll. There would be all sorts of other costs..,marketing, executive staff security, etc etc. Let's just arbitrarily call it $50 million. So $300 million in total expenses They had 1.5 million in attendance at $100 game day revenue makes $150 million in income. Another $54 million in local TV. $50 million in National TV. Maybe $25 million in radio broadcasting? Where is this hidden fortune you are seeing? My numbers are just back of an envelope...I'm sure there is some kind of scholarly study done on this...but no...I don't believe there is a massive operating profit to running a team. But there IS massive value to the asset...Yankees were sold 50 years ago and are now worth $5 billion more than they were last sold for. That's $100 million annual, tax free, appreciation in their asset. THAT'S what owners care about. That and the fame they get for owning one of these rare assets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NWINFan Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 44 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said: I mean that's just bad math. 30,000 fans x $100 in game day revenue x 81 games dwarfs any other source of revenue the teams make. Fans going to the games matter a LOT. They want you at the game. And honestly...when Kopech is pitching and Robert has been on a hot streak...you want to go. I was at the Packers/Niners playoff game...that feeling you get when 80,000 fans are cheering in unison...not much in life can replicate that joy (or the collective pain when the stupid punt gets blocked and returned for a touchdown). It's a matter of priorities. They care about other sources of revenue first. Of course, they want fans. On their terms. Many times watching a lousy- assed team. And if a fan doesn't want to waste his hard-earned money watching a lousy-assed team, they call him fair weather. But don't kid yourself. Ticket revenues don't mean what they used to and the average fan doesn't either. If MLB really had any sensitivity toward the average fan, there wouldn't be a lockout. This would have been resolved a long time ago. BYW, MLB can stick its expanded playoffs right up its collective ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, poppysox said: Hey look...you got 2 likes from your posse for that in-depth analysis. I really could care less and there’s nothing more to say until this is over. It’s the only definitive point of view. This sucks… But I suppose you’re making me question if it is actually definitive. Perhaps you’re just trying to antagonize people and incite some drama to fill a void or something. Now I’m going to go back to just saying “This sucks” because all of these other words are pointless. Edited February 5, 2022 by hi8is 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 2 minutes ago, NWINFan said: BYW, MLB can stick its expanded playoffs right up its collective ass. It's just a money grab. Players received over $90 million last year. Expand the playoffs and they would receive even more. https://www.forbes.com/sites/maurybrown/2021/12/13/2021-mlb-postseason-player-shares-sees-record-9047-million-heres-how-the-system-works/?sh=5243490b2e15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 Players do not get paid for Spring Training but they do get bonus money for the playoffs. So maybe the players aren't all that excited about getting to Spring Training. Who would blame them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 12 minutes ago, Texsox said: Players do not get paid for Spring Training but they do get bonus money for the playoffs. So maybe the players aren't all that excited about getting to Spring Training. Who would blame them? I would think the 282 still unsigned free agents might be interested along with those players hoping to show their wares in spring training camp in hopes of making a team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 5, 2022 Author Share Posted February 5, 2022 2 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said: I mean that's just bad math. 30,000 fans x $100 in game day revenue x 81 games dwarfs any other source of revenue the teams make. Fans going to the games matter a LOT. They want you at the game. And honestly...when Kopech is pitching and Robert has been on a hot streak...you want to go. I was at the Packers/Niners playoff game...that feeling you get when 80,000 fans are cheering in unison...not much in life can replicate that joy (or the collective pain when the stupid punt gets blocked and returned for a touchdown). Every single team in baseball makes $100 million in cash before they ever sell a single ticket, beer, or hat. The season makes them money, no doubt, but a majority of cash flow comes from non-ballpark revenue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 31 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Every single team in baseball makes $100 million in cash before they ever sell a single ticket, beer, or hat. The season makes them money, no doubt, but a majority of cash flow comes from non-ballpark revenue. That's not $100 million in profits...that's income from which they spend money. Still it was a bit unfair that I used the Met's as the example above.... I only used them as they are the most recently sold...but not every team is run as stupidly as the Mets. Which is one of the big problems with the CBA. All teams get $50 million in national TV money, only the Brewers and Marlins make less than $40 million in local TV money and everyone but the Marlins draws a million fans. So basically every team has $200 million in revenue with some much much more than that from which they pay their bills.. Yet you have teams like the Orioles last year that only spent $40 million in player salaries. That team is happily making good operating income...but probably not getting much in franchise asset appreciation. The value of the franchise from 2002 to 2011 only went up $100 million...or $10 million a year from a starting investment of $300 million. Lot's of other investments will get you much more than that so perhaps you need the operating income. But if you are trying to negotiate the CBA the demands of the Orioles and Tyler Nevin (random minimum salary player for Orioles) count as do the Dodgers and Max Scherzer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 5, 2022 Author Share Posted February 5, 2022 3 hours ago, poppysox said: What time period are you using for that doubling effect. I will concede 8.2 billion in 2015 climbed to 10.7 in 2019 which is 30%. The source material was posted earlier in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said: I think this is what Poppy is talking about "I have drunk the Kool aid" just seems like a pointless personal attack that make message boards ugly. But yes, I think a baseball team is closer to a Picasso than a hardware store. Sure there is a value to positive operating income to some degree. Manhattan high rises don't let tenants in for free...but much of the real estate value is the tax free appreciation of scare assets. If you want to argue otherwise...Steve Cohen paid $2.5 billion for the Mets. A fair return on that investment would be 10% a year. You think the Mets made more than $250 million in profits? Last year the Met's had $230 million in player payroll. There would be all sorts of other costs..,marketing, executive staff security, etc etc. Let's just arbitrarily call it $50 million. So $300 million in total expenses They had 1.5 million in attendance at $100 game day revenue makes $150 million in income. Another $54 million in local TV. $50 million in National TV. Maybe $25 million in radio broadcasting? Where is this hidden fortune you are seeing? My numbers are just back of an envelope...I'm sure there is some kind of scholarly study done on this...but no...I don't believe there is a massive operating profit to running a team. But there IS massive value to the asset...Yankees were sold 50 years ago and are now worth $5 billion more than they were last sold for. That's $100 million annual, tax free, appreciation in their asset. THAT'S what owners care about. That and the fame they get for owning one of these rare assets. The Atlanta Braves whose revenue is publicly reported and whose revenues most likely dwarf a team fromNYC, make well over $400 million a year in revenue. And with salary caps the Bulls print money. Why would they not be worth tons more that baseball teams just scraping by trying to be sold? And if the only reason to own a team andthe way to make money is to sell, why is JR holding on? Cohen gets a huge tax deduction on his purchase price. $167 million rediction in taxable income a year for 15 years Edited February 6, 2022 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulfly Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 9 hours ago, Texsox said: Players do not get paid for Spring Training but they do get bonus money for the playoffs. So maybe the players aren't all that excited about getting to Spring Training. Who would blame them? For the guys trying to make it to the show, that sucks. The minor league pay and system sucks. They get hosed. But seriously, fuck all the guys making over 400k a year bitching they don't get paid for spring training. I can guarantee the vast majority of the guys trying to make the big league roster would gladly take no pay for spring training to be on the big league club to get that pay for the season. It's only once the guys get there that it becomes an issue. Funny how that works. The simple fact is, players get paid too much. Owners charge far too much to go to the games, make a killing and still cry poor. But it's the fans that get screwed. Everyone picking a side between the players and owners, when the fans are the ones that get bent over just for enjoying a game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iWiN4PreP Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 2 hours ago, soulfly said: But seriously, fuck all the guys making over 400k a year bitching they don't get paid for spring training. What a shitty take. Fuck those guys for working for free and letting the owners use their month long work, travel time away from their family, and the intense stress that they are under trying to fight for jobs? That's absurd. When I found out that they don't get paid for spring training, but owners make all the money from concessions, etc., I was shocked and did not come to the statement "fuck the players". Check yourself. 2 hours ago, soulfly said: The simple fact is, players get paid too much. Again, another horrible take. Look at what sport athletes are getting paid in every major sport. Think about the insane skill and insane life that these guys lead. Then, think about the insane profits billionaire owners are making compared to the average MLB salary. 2 hours ago, soulfly said: Everyone picking a side between the players and owners, when the fans are the ones that get bent over just for enjoying a game. It fucking blows, but i'll sit out a year to support the players. I'm not happy, it will kill me, and this is a horrible look for the sport, but god damnit - the players have been getting ripped off for way too long to continually cave in while the owners destroy the game. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NWINFan Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 20 hours ago, Texsox said: It's just a money grab. Players received over $90 million last year. Expand the playoffs and they would receive even more. https://www.forbes.com/sites/maurybrown/2021/12/13/2021-mlb-postseason-player-shares-sees-record-9047-million-heres-how-the-system-works/?sh=5243490b2e15 I know it's a money grab. I hate the idea of expanded play offs and nothing will change my mind about that. I don't care who makes the money or how much they make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 If some owners like the guy who owns the Rockies are having problems making ends meet, why must all the players, no matter what ream chip in? Why can't the owners share the revenue a bit more equally? The players taking less of the pie won't change the divide between the haves and the have not. If anything it will make it bigger. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 1 hour ago, Dick Allen said: If some owners like the guy who owns the Rockies are having problems making ends meet, why must all the players, no matter what ream chip in? Why can't the owners share the revenue a bit more equally? The players taking less of the pie won't change the divide between the haves and the have not. If anything it will make it bigger. Unless it's a salary cap. ( Which I'm not advocating for) There are all sorts of problems with a salary cap that makes it a non negotiable for players. But if you want competition a hard salary cap based on the what the "have nots" could afford has everyone competitive economically for free agents. But before everyone thinks I'm suggesting that's a good idea, it's not good for players. I would like to see a minimum based on the revenue sharing amount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 10 hours ago, iWiN4PreP said: What a shitty take. Fuck those guys for working for free and letting the owners use their month long work, travel time away from their family, and the intense stress that they are under trying to fight for jobs? That's absurd. When I found out that they don't get paid for spring training, but owners make all the money from concessions, etc., I was shocked and did not come to the statement "fuck the players". Check yourself. Again, another horrible take. Look at what sport athletes are getting paid in every major sport. Think about the insane skill and insane life that these guys lead. Then, think about the insane profits billionaire owners are making compared to the average MLB salary. It fucking blows, but i'll sit out a year to support the players. I'm not happy, it will kill me, and this is a horrible look for the sport, but god damnit - the players have been getting ripped off for way too long to continually cave in while the owners destroy the game. Yeah, I was one of those people that was like "athletes are paid too much!" when I was like, 10. Then when you realize what their bodies go through, the stress, not seeing their families, less privacy, the fact that they are the best in the world at their profession with very limited jobs and short careers, and well fuck. Seems rightfully paid to me, especially in lieu of stuff like this: Quote Landing LeBron James will mean hundreds of millions of dollars in economic benefit to Cleveland and Northeast Ohio, Cuyahoga County officials said. The return of the star forward to his hometown Cleveland Cavaliers will mean $500 million a year in additional ticket sales and spending, County Executive Ed FitzGerald said today. Based on calculations by the Cuyahoga County Fiscal Office, James’s return will generate $215 million from games alone. Average attendance increased from about 12,000 before James joined the team to about 20,500 during his final season, the county said. Although attendance has slipped, officials expect sold out games next season with James on the court. Other spending increases will come at restaurants, convention business and hotels, FitzGerald said. Anticipated benefits include a $34 million increase in annual spending by fans at games to $170 million a year plus 500 additional jobs supported by the Cavaliers, the county said. There will even be a boost to debt-service payments because revenue from an admissions tax is used to help support about $9 million a year for the $120 million in bonds that the county issued in 1992 to build what is now Quicken Loans Arena where the team plays, said Nathan Kelly, county deputy chief of staff for economic development. The county expects a $3.5 million increase in admissions tax to put toward debt service -- making up for a similar sum that the county had to cover from its general fund after James left and attendance fell, Kelly said. https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/sports/pro/cavs/2014/07/14/lebron-james-return-to-bring/10610286007/ That doesn't even count stuff like LeBron dragging them to the finals and the revenue that generated. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold's Leg Lift Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 16 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said: Manspread. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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wegner Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 The general dislike of Rob Manfred's tenure as commissioner is an idea most of us here can get behind. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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