The MLB lockout is lifted!

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Texsox said:

Which is a limited job skill that literally they can't sell to anyone else. It really is stupid of them to put so much effort into a job that they can only do for a few years and will likely cause then to work for next to no money for years then be stuck at minimum wage for greedy bastards that treat them like hell while earning millions for themselves. 

I hope future players learn from this and find other career paths. When teams can't find employees willing to accept those jobs wages will increase.

Isn't that also equally the case for professional golfers, especially on the PGA/LPGA?

[Jack Parkman]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

We have a performance management system and the top performers receive no direct benefit in terms salary or bonus over their peers who simply meet expectations.  As such, people with similar jobs / responsibility receive similar financial benefits regardless of performance and are more or less paid at a market-based rate.  Do people make more as they move up the corporate ladder and take on more responsibility?   Of course they do, but that’s how any org structure is going to work.

I’m really struggling to understand your point here.  Should lower level Walmart & Amazon employees receive a wage that allows for a reasonable standard of living?  Of course they should, but what the fuck does that have to do with major league baseball players earning $600k or more at minimum?  You’re so anti-ownership that you’ve somehow convinced yourself that being paid for performance is a bad thing.  Should Dylan Cease get paid less than Reynaldo Lopez?  How is that a good thing?

No man, people who are better at their jobs and have more responsibility should get paid more. I have no problem with that. 

I'm more against high levels of income inequality rather than income differences. I don't think the gaps between the best and the middle, and the experienced and the entry level should be as high as they are. Like I think that top performers in companies should get compensated outside of their nominal salary with things like stock options and bonuses, but salary differences shouldn't be that high. CEOs making 1000+ times more than their lowest paid employee is beyond absurd and quite frankly theft. 

When I think of performance based, hard data outside of sports I think of the Amazon dystopia where they track the efficiency of delivery drivers and they can't stop to take a shit or eat lunch without getting threatened with losing their job. Where corporate makes you clock out when you have to use the john, and the toilets that are designed to be painful. 

So to put it frankly, people who are better at their job should get paid the best, but the difference between the best and the entry level employee shouldn't be so high, and the rewards for top performers should be in bonuses and stock options rather than their already higher salary. 

 

 

 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Jack Parkman

[Quin]

 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

We have a performance management system and the top performers receive no direct benefit in terms salary or bonus over their peers who simply meet expectations.  As such, people with similar jobs / responsibility receive similar financial benefits regardless of performance and are more or less paid at a market-based rate.  Do people make more as they move up the corporate ladder and take on more responsibility?   Of course they do, but that’s how any org structure is going to work.

I’m really struggling to understand your point here.  Should lower level Walmart & Amazon employees receive a wage that allows for a reasonable standard of living?  Of course they should, but what the fuck does that have to do with major league baseball players earning $600k or more at minimum?  You’re so anti-ownership that you’ve somehow convinced yourself that being paid for performance is a bad thing.  Should Dylan Cease get paid less than Reynaldo Lopez?  How is that a good thing?

Maybe while we're at it you and Parkman can figure out a fair and equitable way to define "teacher performance," as the best teachers would surely trade that for the historical tenure/seniority system.

[Spicy gar]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

We have a performance management system and the top performers receive no direct benefit in terms salary or bonus over their peers who simply meet expectations.  As such, people with similar jobs / responsibility receive similar financial benefits regardless of performance and are more or less paid at a market-based rate.  Do people make more as they move up the corporate ladder and take on more responsibility?   Of course they do, but that’s how any org structure is going to work.

I’m really struggling to understand your point here.  Should lower level Walmart & Amazon employees receive a wage that allows for a reasonable standard of living?  Of course they should, but what the fuck does that have to do with major league baseball players earning $600k or more at minimum?  You’re so anti-ownership that you’ve somehow convinced yourself that being paid for performance is a bad thing.  Should Dylan Cease get paid less than Reynaldo Lopez?  How is that a good thing?

I think minor league players should be paid for their performance whether they make it to the big leagues or not. This isn't even a part of the CBA negotiations which sucks. A ball 30k, AA 40k, AAA 50k. To even make it to that minimum salary is near impossible. If you spend your whole life from getting drafted out of highschool to trying to get through the grind of minor league baseball to come out with 50k over 5 years without a degree, kinda fucked

 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Spicy gar said:

I think minor league players should be paid for their performance whether they make it to the big leagues or not. This isn't even a part of the CBA negotiations which sucks. A ball 30k, AA 40k, AAA 50k. To even make it to that minimum salary is near impossible. If you spend your whole life from getting drafted out of highschool to trying to get through the grind of minor league baseball to come out with 50k over 5 years without a degree, kinda fucked

 

The problem is there's only a 25-30% correlation between minor league performance and making it to the majors.

Think of all the players 2-3 years too old for their leagues, or all the veteran journeymen in AA/AAA who produce well but have a significantly diminished likelihood of ever making it to the majors.

Pitchers, in particular, are assessed on a million other aspects in the minors that will never be captured with a counting stat like fWAR.

How do you measure potential?   How do you put a value at performance being more highly rewarded than production in the minors?

There's just a handful of scouts in baseball (maybe they worked for the A's in the Moneyball Era) that would agree with this proposition.

Edited March 2, 2022 by caulfield12

[Spicy gar]

4 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

The problem is there's only a 25-30% correlation between minor league performance and making it to the majors.

Think of all the players 2-3 years too old for their leagues, or all the veteran journeymen in AA/AAA who produce well but have a significantly diminished likelihood of ever making it to the majors.

Pitchers, in particular, are assessed on a million other aspects in the minors that will never be captured with a counting stat like fWAR.

How do you measure potential?   How do you put a value at performance being more highly rewarded than production in the minors?

There's just a handful of scouts in baseball (maybe they worked for the A's in the Moneyball Era) that would agree with this proposition.

I guess potential is measured by draft slot like any other league. Higher draft pick bigger signing. Performance and production are the same thing. When you put that much work in throughout your life I think at least a wage above poverty level should be the norm. Doesn't matter your talent level of you make a ball you should be paid minimum wage. And that wage should go up as you progress through the minors. Whether you have potential to make it to the majors or not.

[Dick Allen]

I am trying to understand how the owners are still going to negotiate when they have already given their final and best offer. 

Soz already sent season ticket holders a message saying how dissippointed they are, and saying you will get credits for games missed unless you want to jump through hoops for refunds. I am going to jump through the hoops.

[Chimpton]

As a UK Sox fan who has read this thread to try and educate myself more about this lockout, one thing that shocks me is how little most minor league players get paid. I know they are not MLB standard and many are young hopefuls but the games still get attendances who pay to go to the games and buy concessions etc. I know the aim is to make the MLB but for those who don't but have a good MiLB career they really should be paid better and should be able to afford accommodation that is not subsidized by the club.

[hi8is]

2 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

I am going to jump through the hoops.

?

[caulfield12]

34 minutes ago, Chimpton said:

As a UK Sox fan who has read this thread to try and educate myself more about this lockout, one thing that shocks me is how little most minor league players get paid. I know they are not MLB standard and many are young hopefuls but the games still get attendances who pay to go to the games and buy concessions etc. I know the aim is to make the MLB but for those who don't but have a good MiLB career they really should be paid better and should be able to afford accommodation that is not subsidized by the club.

For most of the history of the minor leagues, the individual franchises were individually operated based on preexisting agreements with MLB teams...and that salary compensation (for players) was completely divorced from the profitability of said franchise.

[hogan873]

3 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

I am trying to understand how the owners are still going to negotiate when they have already given their final and best offer. 

Soz already sent season ticket holders a message saying how dissippointed they are, and saying you will get credits for games missed unless you want to jump through hoops for refunds. I am going to jump through the hoops.

Manfred is already backing off that the last offer yesterday was the "final and best offer" by saying they told the MLBPA that it was the final and best offer before the deadline.  I'm pretty sure they used the language that insinuated the deal was their best offer, but we all know they can do better, and they will continue to negotiate.

[Chimpton]

58 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

For most of the history of the minor leagues, the individual franchises were individually operated based on preexisting agreements with MLB teams...and that salary compensation (for players) was completely divorced from the profitability of said franchise.

Thanks for the info, does that mean that say Charlotte Knights don't make money for themselves and are all part of the overall White Sox umbrella?

[caulfield12]

Let's start illustrating with a personal anecdote. It was 2019 Opening Day in Cincinnati. Before the Reds hosted the Pirates, Manfred had a press conference. He had a bit of an opening statement, and talked about the annual parade held for the great fans in the city of the first professional team. Then he said -- sort of tongue-in-cheek, though given everything we've seen from Manfred, I think it's pretty clear this was his earnest request -- it was OK to open things up for "some positive questions." 

Mine wasn't positive. 

I wondered how, at the time, a system that was paying Tyler Flowers more than eight times more than Ronald Acuña, Jr. was going to be fair for the younger players moving forward -- especially when Dallas Keuchel, who won the Cy Young in 2015 while making the league minimum, remained unsigned into the season in his first foray into free agency. 

Manfred was visibly upset. 

"The system in place is a principle tenant that the MLBPA has voted for since my first negotiation which was 1989 and they wanted a seniority-based system," he said. "That's what they bargained for and that's what they have. It's just not more complicated than that."  
 

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/how-rob-manfreds-ineffective-reign-as-mlb-commissioner-led-to-baseballs-disastrous-outcome/

Edited March 2, 2022 by caulfield12

[Chicago White Sox]

6 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Maybe while we're at it you and Parkman can figure out a fair and equitable way to define "teacher performance," as the best teachers would surely trade that for the historical tenure/seniority system.

100% agree.

[Chicago White Sox]

3 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

I am trying to understand how the owners are still going to negotiate when they have already given their final and best offer. 

Soz already sent season ticket holders a message saying how dissippointed they are, and saying you will get credits for games missed unless you want to jump through hoops for refunds. I am going to jump through the hoops.

Let’s be honest, Manfred’s entire strategy was let’s wait out the union until they break.  He will continue to cry poor on behalf of the owners and will make minimal concessions while they continue to “negotiate” over the coming the weeks.  Unless the players feel the pain of no paychecks and fold, it’s going to take a few more weeks before the owners get serious and we fans are the ones who will suffer.  The complete lack of caring for their customer base is disgusting.

[Texsox]

6 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Isn't that also equally the case for professional golfers, especially on the PGA/LPGA?

There a thousands of golf courses they can work at as club pros. 

[Texsox]

Just to toss a log on the fire. Baseball players are like the art history majors we laugh at who complain later they spent years developing a skill and now aren't being paid enough. The landscape hasn't changed. You invested your time and money into developing a set of skills that has a very finite number of employers. Go to college and get a degree so you can sell your skills to a multiple of employers. 

[Balta1701]

33 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Just to toss a log on the fire. Baseball players are like the art history majors we laugh at who complain later they spent years developing a skill and now aren't being paid enough. The landscape hasn't changed. You invested your time and money into developing a set of skills that has a very finite number of employers. Go to college and get a degree so you can sell your skills to a multiple of employers. 

Amazon isn’t paying enough? Sorry chum, the business landscape hasn’t changed. You don’t have valuable enough skills to be able to boost your earnings. Go get a second college degree and sell yourself in multiple ways. That should be the bare minimum to earn a fair wage right?

[whitesoxfan99]

5 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

I am trying to understand how the owners are still going to negotiate when they have already given their final and best offer. 

Soz already sent season ticket holders a message saying how dissippointed they are, and saying you will get credits for games missed unless you want to jump through hoops for refunds. I am going to jump through the hoops.

Best and final is almost never actually best and final.  I laugh at people in my field when they use that terminology.  

[Chicago White Sox]

9 minutes ago, whitesoxfan99 said:

Best and final is almost never actually best and final.  I laugh at people in my field when they use that terminology.  

Best and final is only relevant in an open bidding process where on the “final” offers will be accepted.  When each party needs the other, there is no such thing until a deal is reached.

[Tnetennba]

1 hour ago, hogan873 said:

Manfred is already backing off that the last offer yesterday was the "final and best offer" by saying they told the MLBPA that it was the final and best offer before the deadline.  I'm pretty sure they used the language that insinuated the deal was their best offer, but we all know they can do better, and they will continue to negotiate.

Yeah that language was likely hardline for more pressure on the Union to fold.  Now that they haven’t MLB has to walk it back a bit.  Their best and final offer still wasn’t good enough and they know the Union isn’t going to fold over lost games so they have to come up with something better.  We just have to hope that it only costs us two weeks of games and not two months for the owners to put out their best. 

[Balta1701]

Just now, Tnetennba said:

Yeah that language was likely hardline for more pressure on the Union to fold.  Now that they haven’t MLB has to walk it back a bit.  Their best and final offer still wasn’t good enough and they know the Union isn’t going to fold over lost games so they have to come up with something better.  We just have to hope that it only costs us two weeks of games and not two months for the owners to put out their best. 

I still don’t understand why the owners would give a better offer next week or even in April than they would give this week. 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Chimpton said:

Thanks for the info, does that mean that say Charlotte Knights don't make money for themselves and are all part of the overall White Sox umbrella?

Right.  There used to be a few (mostly lower level or short season) teams owned by the major league affiliates, but roughly 90-95% were independent organizations who signed renewable affiliation agreements with MLB teams.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

5 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

I am trying to understand how the owners are still going to negotiate when they have already given their final and best offer. 

Soz already sent season ticket holders a message saying how dissippointed they are, and saying you will get credits for games missed unless you want to jump through hoops for refunds. I am going to jump through the hoops.

Eugene made a thread about it.  He's the absolute best follow on twitter regarding this process.  He understands and explains all the ploys and dirty tricks Manfred utilizes as part of his negotiation style.