The MLB lockout is lifted!

[Sambuca]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

If the next CBA lasted 5 years again, the difference between a 50/50 split and a 40/60 split is $5 billion dollars total. That is more than an entire seasons' worth of earnings for the players. So here's the problem: getting back to a 50/50 split is worth more to the players than the entire 2022 season. Keeping a 60/40 split and having it get bigger is worth more to the owners than the entire 2022 season. Compared to the difference in the NFL, these numbers are enormous.

This makes a lot of sense, especially in a vacuum, but both sides need to factor in the damage an extended lockout, including loss of games, will do the sport overall.  And they have no idea how to predict how long those damages will last, and if they can recover.

[Leonard Zelig]

14 hours ago, hi8is said:

There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do. There’s no baseball rumors or news and I don’t know what to do.

Go outside. 

[raBBit]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

They're not paying a net negative tax rate really, that may have been a slight exaggeration unless we're talking about people who started industries and businesses which were heavily subsidized by government dollars and then also had the government subsidize the sale of said product by covering a base of the cost with government dollars promoting sales and growth; this could be argued to be a negative tax rate because effectively they're receiving more in government subsidies in one way or another than they're giving back in tax dollars. I'm not going to pretend that I know the business backgrounds of every MLB owner or that they fit that bill but it is possible if you reach with the definition.

That said, there have been plenty of studies done that show what you're saying is misrepresenting the reality of the situation. 

 https://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/written-materials/2021/09/23/what-is-the-average-federal-individual-income-tax-rate-on-the-wealthiest-americans/

"New OMB-CEA Report: Billionaires Pay an Average Federal Individual Income Tax Rate of Just 8.2%"

Now you can argue that those loopholes are available to everyone, but that would be an incorrect proclamation when you actually account for this thing called reality. Players can't skirt the idea that their earnings are revenue; for example, they can't be paid in stock holdings.



Effective tax rates are really the conversation here, and frankly it's all that matters. The proclamation that they're merely following the tax code is incredibly misleading, as they're actually using their wealth to exploit the tax code to levels of which we've never experience. As an example, from the chart above, in the 40's and 50's, following the mass labor movements, effective tax rates for the elite in the country reached as high as 90%+ in the highest bracket.

 I'm not going to derail the conversation much further, and while 1.) SSH is exaggerating slightly 2.) your proclamation that the tax code is somehow based in fairness and equality available to all American's isn't actually true or honest in execution.

1.) SHH is not exaggerating he is speaking on something he clearly doesn't understand. You don't need to defend  him before he can respond, he can speak for himself too.

2.) I never made that proclamation and I can speak for myself. Never talked about fairness. Never talked about equality. You don't need to make stuff up to elevate yourself in a conversation you jumped in to derail. SSH and I can speak for ourselves, we don't need you to convolute the conversation and enlighten us by changing the discussion to speak on topics that are outside of the scope of the conversation being had. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

21 minutes ago, raBBit said:

1.) SHH is not exaggerating he is speaking on something he clearly doesn't understand. You don't need to defend  him before he can respond, he can speak for himself too.

2.) I never made that proclamation and I can speak for myself. Never talked about fairness. Never talked about equality. You don't need to make stuff up to elevate yourself in a conversation you jumped in to derail. SSH and I can speak for ourselves, we don't need you to convolute the conversation and enlighten us by changing the discussion to speak on topics that are outside of the scope of the conversation being had. 

AH, I must have missed that you guys were communicating via PM's and I somehow got access and that this conversation wasn't posted on a public message board. My bad.

I'm glad to see you couldn't refute my points though.

[poppysox]

4 hours ago, Tnetennba said:

My 75% guesstimate might have been an exaggeration, but on par with your supposition that every player is a spoiled millionaire.  Your fast food and expensive women quip tells me enough and I won’t waste my time debating you on the matter any further. 

Thank you.

[poppysox]

2 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

How weird do you have to be to side with billionaires who wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire over the players who are the entire reason you watch the game?

Jerry Reinsdorf is undoubtedly leading the charge and trying to break the union, just like in 1994, during the middle of a White Sox contention window... despite having made billions of dollars as an owner in professional sports while the players are simply trying to play baseball and be compensated fairly in relation to the revenue they generate... There's no bias here. The game is not the game without the players. The entertainment does not exist. Even a 50/50 split has always felt absurd, given the importance of the actual product and the rarity of the assets, yet in baseball the split has moved closer to 44/56... 

People who side with big corporate employers over employees are just brainwashed sheep, frankly.

If you read my post you will find I side with no one.  Yes, I do point out that both sides of this argument are to blame.  This discussion started with someone using bogus numbers which I called him on.  You do the same thing every day.

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

They're not paying a net negative tax rate really, that may have been a slight exaggeration unless we're talking about people who started industries and businesses which were heavily subsidized by government dollars and then also had the government subsidize the sale of said product by covering a base of the cost with government dollars promoting sales and growth; this could be argued to be a negative tax rate because effectively they're receiving more in government subsidies in one way or another than they're giving back in tax dollars. I'm not going to pretend that I know the business backgrounds of every MLB owner or that they fit that bill but it is possible if you reach with the definition.

That said, there have been plenty of studies done that show what you're saying is misrepresenting the reality of the situation. 

https://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/written-materials/2021/09/23/what-is-the-average-federal-individual-income-tax-rate-on-the-wealthiest-americans/

"New OMB-CEA Report: Billionaires Pay an Average Federal Individual Income Tax Rate of Just 8.2%"

Now you can argue that those loopholes are available to everyone, but that would be an incorrect proclamation when you actually account for this thing called reality. Players can't skirt the idea that their earnings are revenue; for example, they can't be paid in stock holdings.

Effective tax rates are really the conversation here, and frankly it's all that matters. The proclamation that they're merely following the tax code is incredibly misleading, as they're actually using their wealth to exploit the tax code to levels of which we've never experience. As an example, from the chart above, in the 40's and 50's, following the mass labor movements, effective tax rates for the elite in the country reached as high as 90%+ in the highest bracket.

I'm not going to derail the conversation much further, and while SSH is exaggerating slightly your proclamation that the tax code is somehow based in fairness and equality available to all American's isn't actually true or honest in execution.

https://www.fool.com/taxes/2020/09/25/why-does-billionaire-warren-buffett-pay-a-lower-ta/
This is not rocket science, here.

Or simply look at the net taxes paid by corporations like Amazon/FB by domiciling in Ireland or the Caribbean.  Or a certain former president the past 10-15 years.  Not something any middle class taxpayer can do, exactly.  Even the billionaires know it’s a joke.

 

“A 70% marginal tax rate. A 77% estate tax. A 3% tax on every dollar over $1 billion of net worth. As various plans to tax the ultra-rich gain steam in American political discourse—and after a recent bombshell report that the 400 richest Americans paid a lower tax rate than other income groups last year—many billionaires have been challenged to address their very existence amid growing income inequality.

At least a dozen billionaires have made public statements that call for the super-rich to pay more in taxes.  On Monday, Salesforce chairman and cofounder Marc Benioff penned the latest in a string of billionaire op-eds calling for higher taxes on the wealthy. The California software entrepreneur, who ranked No. 93 on The Forbes 400 list of richest Americans released earlier this month, wrote that “increasing taxes on high-income individuals like myself would help generate the trillions of dollars that we desperately need to improve education and health care and fight climate change.”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/cartercoudriet/2019/10/15/billionaires-more-taxes-gates-buffett-bloomberg/?sh=7cfe5bf57792
Even Forbes of all publications is sympathetic.

 

 

In 2007, Jeff Bezos, then a multibillionaire and now the world’s richest man, did not pay a penny in federal income taxes. He achieved the feat again in 2011. In 2018, Tesla founder Elon Musk, the second-richest person in the world, also paid no federal income taxes.

Michael Bloomberg managed to do the same in recent years. Billionaire investor Carl Icahn did it twice. George Soros paid no federal income tax three years in a row.

ProPublica has obtained a vast trove of Internal Revenue Service data on the tax returns of thousands of the nation’s wealthiest people, covering more than 15 years. The data provides an unprecedented look inside the financial lives of America’s titans, including Warren Buffett, Bill Gates, Rupert Murdoch and Mark Zuckerberg. It shows not just their income and taxes, but also their investments, stock trades, gambling winnings and even the results of audits.

Taken together, it demolishes the cornerstone myth of the American tax system: that everyone pays their fair share and the richest Americans pay the most. The IRS records show that the wealthiest can — perfectly legally — pay income taxes that are only a tiny fraction of the hundreds of millions, if not billions, their fortunes grow each and every year.

https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trove-of-never-before-seen-records-reveal-how-the-wealthiest-avoid-income-tax

[South Side Hit Men]

31 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

AH, I must have missed that you guys were communicating via PM's and I somehow got access and that this conversation wasn't posted on a public message board. My bad.

I'm glad to see you couldn't refute my points though.

Yes, there are some posts so ridiculous they are beyond the need to respond.

Anyone here can look up the tax rates for Capital Gains (Unrealized taxed at 0%) or Long Term Capital Gains vs. Federal, State and Local Wage rates.

Most also can understand the difference between home owners of a non income producing asset which they pay property taxes on each and every six months vs. a business which not only has their capital expenses paid for by the rabble, but also the fact the billionaire's business pays no property taxes on said capital.

You can't have a rational discussion with someone lacking in the basic economic realities of taxation rates, rates on capital vs. labor, fairness, etc..

Mega dittos, silly Rabbit.

Edited December 3, 2021 by South Side Hit Men

[caulfield12]

Major League Baseball’s first lockout in 26 years is already off to a weird start — players aren’t officially listed on any team site, just faceless mugshots where smiling faces should be. 
 

The only question remaining is how long the lockout will last. Negotiations are ongoing. I turned to our stellar MLB writers to gauge the temperature:

• Levi Weaver, Rangers: Feb. 1
• Jake Kaplan, Astros: Feb. 10
• Dan Connolly, Orioles: Feb. 14
• Chris Strauss, MLB managing editor: Feb. 14
• Tim Britton, Mets: Feb. 16
• Jayson Stark, senior writer: Feb. 23
• Nick Groke, Rockies: March 1
• Andy McCullough, senior writer: May 15 (“I'm laughing to myself, thinking about how bad Twitter will be if it lasts until May 15. Put me down for that. It won't last until May 15.”)

Consensus average: Nobody believes in some pre-January breakthrough. February it is. 

I’ll enter the fray and say this gets done quickly: Pencil me in for Jan. 20. Feel free to reply to this email with your prediction and, if you get it right, we’ll figure out a fun prize.

 

theathletic.com

[CentralChamps21]

I would bet a good amount of money on later than March 1.

[Chisoxfn]

I expect nothing done for the next 2 months - I think real work will start on Feb 1st (maybe slightly before than) but until you get closer to spring training, etc - there just isn't going to be the right motivation to make things happen.  

[southsider2k5]

There is zero chance something happens before Feb.  They will need the hard deadlines of spring training to make it happen.

[Big Hurtin]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Major League Baseball’s first lockout in 26 years is already off to a weird start — players aren’t officially listed on any team site, just faceless mugshots where smiling faces should be. 
 

The only question remaining is how long the lockout will last. Negotiations are ongoing. I turned to our stellar MLB writers to gauge the temperature:

• Levi Weaver, Rangers: Feb. 1
• Jake Kaplan, Astros: Feb. 10
• Dan Connolly, Orioles: Feb. 14
• Chris Strauss, MLB managing editor: Feb. 14
• Tim Britton, Mets: Feb. 16
• Jayson Stark, senior writer: Feb. 23
• Nick Groke, Rockies: March 1
• Andy McCullough, senior writer: May 15 (“I'm laughing to myself, thinking about how bad Twitter will be if it lasts until May 15. Put me down for that. It won't last until May 15.”)

Consensus average: Nobody believes in some pre-January breakthrough. February it is. 

I’ll enter the fray and say this gets done quickly: Pencil me in for Jan. 20. Feel free to reply to this email with your prediction and, if you get it right, we’ll figure out a fun prize.

 

theathletic.com

I'll take the over.

[flavum]

Looks like MLB Network will be moving to alternate programming, and the Field Of Dreams game will be on tomorrow night (abridged version).

On when they’ll make an agreement…if I have to guess a 7-day period, I’ll take Feb 15-21. That’ll get them enough time to get players signed, and shorten spring training a little.

[Texsox]

20 hours ago, Tnetennba said:

I’d venture that 75% of players aren’t millionaires.  

All levels or MLB? The MLB minimum salary is over $500,000 of which 30 players are earning that. 

The Sox had eight players earning less than a million. I know it bugged me that Ryan Tepera was playing for only $800,000. We all would be happier if he signed for $1.5 mil. 

Play a couple seasons and with a little money management they would be millionaires.

 

[Texsox]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

There is zero chance something happens before Feb.  They will need the hard deadlines of spring training to make it happen.

Good thing they locked in Garcia before things got crazy lol. 

[Tnetennba]

8 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Play a couple seasons and with a little money management they would be millionaires.

How much of that $500K do they clear after taxes, agent fees, accountants, etc?  Then just living life and or supporting a family?  

Sure, it is feasible that with "a little money management" they could be millionaires.   My 75% figure was admittedly an exaggeration.  I think it is silly to assume all players are spoiled millionaires as if they all had big signing bonuses or didn't work for years under suppressed salaries before making bigger dollars.

[oldsox]

Many veteran players do not like ST, so a settlement will not happen before 3/15, IMO.

[hi8is]

11 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

How much of that $500K do they clear after taxes, agent fees, accountants, etc? 

Probably take home about 60% or more depending on what state. About 3% for agent fees is common from what I understand and in California for example at that tax bracket you’re looking at around 35%+ for state and federal combined.

[Texsox]

36 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

How much of that $500K do they clear after taxes, agent fees, accountants, etc?  Then just living life and or supporting a family?  

Sure, it is feasible that with "a little money management" they could be millionaires.   My 75% figure was admittedly an exaggeration.  I think it is silly to assume all players are spoiled millionaires as if they all had big signing bonuses or didn't work for years under suppressed salaries before making bigger dollars.

I'm not suggesting they are spoiled, I believed until proven otherwise they are hard working, competitive men, trying to make the most money possible. So I agree that is a silly thought. I also think it's silly to worry that Luery is only earning $5.5 mil next year instead of $7 mil or that Roberts might not be a free agent soon enough.

Which Sox contract do you look at and think damn I would feel better if he was making more? I doubt any of them.

I also don't care how much the share holders earn.

[pcq]

The owners have room to be generous and compromise by taking care of the younger players and minimum wagers. Otherwise we can watch some minor league teams play in the mlb ballparks for a while. 

[poppysox]

1 hour ago, oldsox said:

Many veteran players do not like ST, so a settlement will not happen before 3/15, IMO.

You make a reasonable guess.  I'm optimistic so I will say Feb.28.

[Texsox]

I'm taking the most pessimistic approach and thinking the 2022 season will not happen. 

[Texsox]

39 minutes ago, pcq said:

The owners have room to be generous and compromise by taking care of the younger players and minimum wagers. Otherwise we can watch some minor league teams play in the mlb ballparks for a while. 

The owners and veteran players have room to be generous and compromise by taking care of the younger players and minimum wagers. Otherwise we can watch some minor league teams play in the mlb ballparks for a while. 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Texsox said:

I'm not suggesting they are spoiled, I believed until proven otherwise they are hard working, competitive men, trying to make the most money possible. So I agree that is a silly thought. I also think it's silly to worry that Luery is only earning $5.5 mil next year instead of $7 mil or that Roberts might not be a free agent soon enough.

Which Sox contract do you look at and think damn I would feel better if he was making more? I doubt any of them.

I also don't care how much the share holders earn.

Rodon earned a lot more than $3 million last year…same with Lynn’s deal, although duly rewarded with a nice extension.

McCann before the Mets paid him off.