raBBit Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 1 minute ago, ptatc said: Agreed. Why treat the international players any different. The % of players in those countries is increasing so just include them in the regular draft. I think that is the best option. I think the big difference, although some here disagree, is how MLB clubs are allowed to have "pre-selection" deals with 12 year olds as stated in one of the tweets. And on top of that, the MLB doesn't enforce the rules they have on the books. It's amazing the current system has lasted as long as it has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: I think the amount of pressure that the owners put on both sides thanks to the "long delay with no talking" followed by "workable agreement that appeared on March 8" would probably drive almost any of us batty if we had to deal with it. no doubt. And no doubt they will continue with those tactics. Although I think Boras also has something to do with that delays based on the previous comments someone posted. Boras thinking it will payoff if there is anther week delay and the players will get more concessions. He has been right so far as the owners have given more concessions, at least reported this time around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 God this fuckin sucks. Sick of getting my hopes up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 7 minutes ago, raBBit said: Why don't Americans get afforded the same flexibility then? In what other major sports league can a player just go wherever they want? Just international soccer I think (if it's even the case with the EPL, I believe it is). Not speaking for other sports, but because Americans aren't both learning to play baseball at a higher level while assimilating into an entirely different culture and language? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said: I'm against drafts in general, but I could allow an international draft temporarily just to stop the fucked up shit that is happening in LA. I don’t understand how anyone is against drafts for major league sports. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 Just now, ptatc said: no doubt. And no doubt they will continue with those tactics. Although I think Boras also has something to do with that delays based on the previous comments someone posted. Boras thinking it will payoff if there is anther week delay and the players will get more concessions. He has been right so far as the owners have given more concessions, at least reported this time around. So far in this negotiation, about 3/4 of the total time has been the players waiting on the owners for a response/new proposal, and I can't think of an "under pressure" time where it was the owners waiting on the players for more than a couple days. There was a point in late February where I wanted the players to make a more aggressive offer than they did, and we got stuck with incremental offers from both sides for about 2 weeks, but other than that, the delays have been massively one-sided so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Not speaking for other sports, but because Americans aren't both learning to play baseball at a higher level while assimilating into an entirely different culture and language? Isn't this true in the NHL as well? They seem to figure it out. It's been that way as long as I can remember in hockey. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said: Oh man. If only there was some sort of a way that these parties could have talked seriously before now. It's such a tragedy. Like starting four years ago, even a year ago would have been nice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 Just now, Balta1701 said: So far in this negotiation, about 3/4 of the total time has been the players waiting on the owners for a response/new proposal, and I can't think of an "under pressure" time where it was the owners waiting on the players for more than a couple days. There was a point in late February where I wanted the players to make a more aggressive offer than they did, and we got stuck with incremental offers from both sides for about 2 weeks, but other than that, the delays have been massively one-sided so far. True. But now it looks like Boras and the players are doing it as well. And who knows if the players would have responded to earlier proposals by the ay they are reacting now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 1 minute ago, Texsox said: Like starting four years ago, even a year ago would have been nice Ideally, yes. But as you can see, when there is a contentious negotiation, nothing gets done until consequences are relevant. Losing games is the only thing that has spurred true negotiations. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 9, 2022 Author Share Posted March 9, 2022 20 minutes ago, ScooterMcGee said: When are these assholes going to realize they are not enemies of one another. They should be working with each other for the betterment of the game, the betterment of the collective communities in and around the game. Instead, they are working against one another. Probably when ownership stops trying to take from the players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 8 minutes ago, ptatc said: True. But now it looks like Boras and the players are doing it as well. And who knows if the players would have responded to earlier proposals by the ay they are reacting now. As I said earlier - I don't know how it is physically possible to manage a negotiation with this many moving parts in this compressed timespan. 5 minutes ago, ptatc said: Ideally, yes. But as you can see, when there is a contentious negotiation, nothing gets done until consequences are relevant. Losing games is the only thing that has spurred true negotiations. So why couldn't the owners present the offer from yesterday last week or last month? It was abundantly clear by mid-February where some of these numbers were going to come down, and the current discussions are right in the range you'd have gotten to if there had been significant movement in February. What spurred negotiations this time was a significant move on the part of the owners away from their "final offer" last week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 10 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: I don’t understand how anyone is against drafts for major league sports. It hurts the players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 Whats the point of arguing about what got us to this point? We are where we are. Who cares what happened or didn't happen in November or January or last week. Its frankly irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 9, 2022 Author Share Posted March 9, 2022 Just now, ChiSox59 said: Whats the point of arguing about what got us to this point? We are where we are. Who cares what happened or didn't happen in November or January or last week. Its frankly irrelevant. Because how we got to this point shapes how the two parties move going forward. The history of these negotiations and how much revenue shrinkage the players have seen over time isn't just going to go away and not factor in. It also doesn't mean that the players need to rush into a bad deal just because the owners set them up to fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxBlanco Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 Just now, Balta1701 said: So why couldn't the owners present the offer from yesterday last week or last month? It was abundantly clear by mid-February where some of these numbers were going to come down, and the current discussions are right in the range you'd have gotten to if there had been significant movement in February. Because if they offer that a month ago, there’s no way the Union takes it knowing they still have time to make the offer better for them. And at that point, the “meet in the middle” number is much higher. There’s just no way either side would be motivated to give any ground to other side until they absolutely have to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raBBit Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 7 minutes ago, Texsox said: It hurts the players. Do you think the current system is what is best for the kids in the DR? You'd have to be insane to think that. They get shopped and peddled around as 12-13 year-olds by guys who take a chunk of their signing bonus. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 8 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said: Because if they offer that a month ago, there’s no way the Union takes it knowing they still have time to make the offer better for them. And at that point, the “meet in the middle” number is much higher. There’s just no way either side would be motivated to give any ground to other side until they absolutely have to. See, this is a particularly biased take against the union. We have no idea and literally no way to suspect how they would have responded if they received an offer like this one in February. My guess is the exact opposite - I think if they get this offer in February, there's some haggling for a couple weeks, there's time to actually work through details of the international draft, but everyone knows that they're right there and they get it done by the first deadline. The final numbers on things like the CBT seemed obvious to me and within a few million dollars that's exactly where they are right now. But then, that's my guess from watching these proceedings - that the players were trying to basically get to right here on the CBT and other issues. But what we do know is that the owners actually waited, didn't offer a workable deal by their first deadline, gave numbers that everyone knew were low, and now we're stuck watching people who were up until 2:00 am last night trying to figure out legal text in the space of a few hours to reshape a set of hundred million dollar deals. No one can do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 9 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: As I said earlier - I don't know how it is physically possible to manage a negotiation with this many moving parts in this compressed timespan. So why couldn't the owners present the offer from yesterday last week or last month? It was abundantly clear by mid-February where some of these numbers were going to come down, and the current discussions are right in the range you'd have gotten to if there had been significant movement in February. What spurred negotiations this time was a significant move on the part of the owners away from their "final offer" last week. I think it was more the fact that they need to cancel games more than the owners move. The "final offer" was the final one before they had to cancel opening day. This "final offer" is before they can't fit in 162 games. Each "final offer" is before a significant game cancelling events occurs. Which, again, are just negotiating ploys that will hurt each side in different ways. And both sides by PR for the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 10 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said: Whats the point of arguing about what got us to this point? We are where we are. Who cares what happened or didn't happen in November or January or last week. Its frankly irrelevant. This is the point. However, if the negotiators do hold those grudges, it makes the negotiations worse. This is why when we do it, there are different levels of negotiation teams. The lead negotiator, usually a lawyers. Then the union president and cabinet members, then a group of 8-12 union employees. This allows a rotation of people to allow cooler heads to be involved to limit this type of animosity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 9, 2022 Author Share Posted March 9, 2022 1 minute ago, ptatc said: I think it was more the fact that they need to cancel games more than the owners move. The "final offer" was the final one before they had to cancel opening day. This "final offer" is before they can't fit in 162 games. Each "final offer" is before a significant game cancelling events occurs. Which, again, are just negotiating ploys that will hurt each side in different ways. And both sides by PR for the game. See that's the crux of the whole problem. Only one side has been using leverage to try to create high pressure situations through this whole process. The owners didn't have to lock the players out. Negotiations could have continued without a lockout, as could the entire off-season. They could have also attempted to offer to negotiate in good faith while working under the structure of the old deal until which team that a new deal could have replaced it. The owners didn't have to sit on a players offer for 43 days and not negotiate at all during that time frame. The owners have cried "last and final" on now four different occasions, and yet here we still are. I have yet to see the players threaten to strike, or refuse to negotiate for long periods of time. The longest response time I can recall to an owners proposal was two days. The closest thing I have seen to a threat from the players I have seen was that if the full regular season wasn't played, an expanded playoffs wasn't going to happen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 2 minutes ago, raBBit said: Do you think the current system is what is best for the kids in the DR? You'd have to be insane to think that. They get shopped and peddled around as 12-13 year-olds by guys who take a chunk of their signing bonus. That should be stopped. The question was why people would be opposed to a draft. I answered that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: See, this is a particularly biased take against the union. We have no idea and literally no way to suspect how they would have responded if they received an offer like this one in February. My guess is the exact opposite - I think if they get this offer in February, there's some haggling for a couple weeks, there's time to actually work through details of the international draft, but everyone knows that they're right there and they get it done by the first deadline. The final numbers on things like the CBT seemed obvious to me and within a few million dollars that's exactly where they are right now. But then, that's my guess from watching these proceedings - that the players were trying to basically get to right here on the CBT and other issues. with Boras and his clients leading the union, I think it's overly optimistic to say much of this. He just stated they think if they wait another week, they can get more concessions. Nothing about that comment makes me think it would have been only a couple of weeks of haggling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 9, 2022 Author Share Posted March 9, 2022 Just now, ptatc said: with Boras and his clients leading the union, I think it's overly optimistic to say much of this. He just stated they think if they wait another week, they can get more concessions. Nothing about that comment makes me think it would have been only a couple of weeks of haggling. Did Boras actually say that, or was that just Sampson using Boras as a Boogeyman, because I have yet to see a quote like that directly from him. Not saying he couldn't have said it, but the only place I have seen it was from an Ex-MLB owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 @southsider2k5 the players are locked out, what would threatening a strike do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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