Texsox Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 So he is a strong leader the owners are behind. Earlier people called him a puppet of the owners. I stand corrected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 2 minutes ago, Texsox said: I believe the votes blocking deals are a bigger deal. It's his job to get the votes 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 Just now, Texsox said: So he is a strong leader the owners are behind. Earlier people called him a puppet of the owners. I stand corrected. Ok whatever strawman you want to put up there to argue with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 8 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said: Ok whatever strawman you want to put up there to argue with me. I think he's a weak commissioner who only does what the owners allow him to do. A commissioner with some power could have moved this along months ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 This is 100% on the owners. They can't hide behind their hand picked commissioner who works for them. He didn't just lock out players and refuse to negotiate on his own. He's not trying to bridge a deal. He's a cardboard cutout the owners want to hide behind. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 1 hour ago, Texsox said: I agree that free agency destroyed competitiveness in baseball, exactly like the owners predicted. For competitive reasons free agency was a bad idea. But the players fought for it and they won. Now teams just buy their starting line up. The baseball draft is twenty rounds long. I believe the Liam's of the world moving teams has 1000 times the impact of some sixth round pick. Players want to play in the MLB. Multiple first round picks could choose Pittsburgh to get to the majors quicker. Why stay blocked by All Stars. So what should a player have to do to achieve free agency? Currently it requires paying off their drafting debts by working years at minimum wage. Is that fair to players while teams take in millions of profits? Are you ok with teams doing everything they can to keep player control, and competitive balance in the league? Service time manipulation seems fine for competitive balance. Your entire argument seems to be centered around the idea of prospects potentially being blocked and choosing quicker paths to the majors. How many quality prospects are blocked indefinitely and have to wait until the Rule 5 draft / minor league free agency to get their opportunity? The answer is very few as prospects are far too valuable to sit around idle in AAA. Either they will be moved to another position (like Vaughn last year) or will be traded for something else that can help the team. This hypothetical problem of yours really isn’t a problem. As for this idea that players are paying off their debts at “minimum wage” before hitting free agency is also absurd. Right now, they’d only make $2M over their first three years before reaching arbitration where they make exponentially more money. Poor Manny Machado only made $34M prior to reaching free agency. Sounds like modern day slavery to me. Also, let’s not ignore the +$5M bonus he received before ever playing a minor league game. Should all the prospects who fail (which is the majority) pay back their signing bonuses to the owners? The way the draft works today is not the problem. The real problem is minor leaguers working at below minimum wages and not being provided basic necessities like housing & food. Those are the people who should be the priority. After them, pre-arb players should probably get paid a bit more and that’s actively being negotiated through a minimum salary increase and a bonus pool for performance. And finally, revenue sharing should require a minimum payroll to ensure the middle class of player isn’t getting fuck once they hit free agency. None of those require the elimination of the draft and awarding free agency from day one. The MLB desperately needs more parity not less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 30 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said: Tex, he is the main point of negotiation. He has multiple talking point missteps and fuck ups. He is the commissioner. This shit is on him Exactly…not negotiating for a month plus after initiating the lockout is 100% on him. That was most definitely his tactic to break the union and he overestimated how easily they would fold this time around. And now with TV money at stake, he finally decides to get serious halfway through March. Fuck Manfred. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 5 hours ago, Chimpton said: As an outsider watching all of this, what really surprises me if that the two sides are not negotiating every minute of every day to solve this stand off. There seems to be no real urgency from either side, and MLB seems unconcerned about cancelling 2 weeks of the season and the players seem equally unconcerned. You aren’t wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 According to Scherzer, the owners never offered anything for the International Draft. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 12 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: Exactly…not negotiating for a month plus after initiating the lockout is 100% on him. That was most definitely his tactic to break the union and he overestimated how easily they would fold this time around. And now with TV money at stake, he finally decides to get serious halfway through March. Fuck Manfred. So what would the owners have done on their own? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 Just now, Texsox said: So what would the owners have done on their own? Coke. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 On 1/9/2022 at 1:51 PM, Balta1701 said: No. He works for the owners. He is employed by the owners. He serves the interest of the owners, not the best interest of baseball. I agree with Balta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 1 hour ago, hogan873 said: This whole disagreement about the international draft, and the publicity of it, could be what ends the lockout. The purported importance of the draft was rather sudden, and both sides feel strongly about it. However, it seems like there's a very vocal, albeit smaller, group of players who are vehemently against it that seem to be the driving force behind the MLBPA's stance. Scherzer's tweet was a bit telling as it sounds like it was brought up in Florida, and at the time the union was told it wasn't a bargaining chip. Now it seems to be THE bargaining chip. Both sides are now blaming the other (nothing new there), and each are playing dumb about who brought it up first. The owners are probably still the bad guys here, but public perception has changed a bit after yesterday. Many of us armchair general managers look at the international draft as a way to get the lockout ended and our teams back on the field. And there's enough information out there for us to know that the current system for getting Latin American players into baseball is pretty corrupt. The draft is not THE solution, but it probably makes the situation better...if done properly. I think the players' last minute proposal, which ironically and supposedly was Manfred's proposal, is a good one because it allows the league and analyze it and hopefully implement a draft that actually improves the process. One thing is clear after yesterday: They should have been having these day long bargaining sessions a month ago. There's a lot of fan mistrust of both sides now, and that can't be good for the sport. Well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 On 1/9/2022 at 3:40 PM, Balta1701 said: When his office negotiates with the umpires, he’s representing the owners again, not the players. Remember the year that the NFL locked out their officials and then the league caved after some egregiously bad officiating early in the replacement ref season? The players still showed up. The commissioner does retain a power called the “best interest of baseball” power. This is a power the union has agreed to give him to do some unilateral actions on the grounds that a bargained agreement cannot anticipate everything that could happen out in the world - suspending the 2020 spring training would be along those lines as an unexpected disaster. That does not mean he is compelled to act in the interests of baseball, rather it is a power both sides have agreed to. If he used that power in a reckless manner or used it against the players union in a bargaining sense, the players would come back and say they cannot allow that power to exist. In Therese negotiations he is the representative of ownership alone. If Jerry Reinsdorf wants his last act to be breaking the union completely and he wants three seasons canceled to make it happen, as long as a majority of the owners agree, then the commissioner does as well. He has no concern for the interests of baseball or fans here beyond what the owners want. Balta convinced me here as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 10, 2022 Author Share Posted March 10, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 Just now, Texsox said: I agree with Balta. If you want me to elaborate on something that is more obvious now that the owners’ disarray has come into focus - Manfred can’t do anything without the agreement of the owners, but he could also have worked to get the owners unified and to keep things organized. The owners should know exactly what the consequences are if they lose games. He should have informed them of the risks in a holdout strategy. They should know exactly how much each team has in cash reserves, how long each team can last if they push things. They should have an agreed on endgame that they’ve been working to this whole time. He can personally lead them on that and if he did so, it would have increased the trust of the union that they were negotiating fairly and avoided lost of this last minute scrambling. He hasn’t done so. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 10, 2022 Author Share Posted March 10, 2022 12 hours ago, southsider2k5 said: Flashback 8 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said: According to Scherzer, the owners never offered anything for the International Draft. So did the Commish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Texsox said: How much autonomy do you think he has? I'm guessing it's micro levels. He's just a cardboard cutout MLB stands behind. I hope MLB rewards him with a nice bonus at the end. He's a worker just like the players. He doesn't own anything in the fight. He’s about as helpful as a cardboard cutout. The rest I just can’t agree with. I hope he’s jettisoned with a quickness once the ink is dry on a new CBA. Yes he works for the owners and his goals are to line their coffers and steer things in their favour, but he’s been pretty terrible for the game itself. The infighting amongst ownership speaks to his ineffectual leadership and the lockout has failed miserably in achieving ownership’s stated goals. He deserves nothing but to fade into obscurity come Opening Day. Edited March 10, 2022 by Tnetennba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: If you want me to elaborate on something that is more obvious now that the owners’ disarray has come into focus - Manfred can’t do anything without the agreement of the owners, but he could also have worked to get the owners unified and to keep things organized. The owners should know exactly what the consequences are if they lose games. He should have informed them of the risks in a holdout strategy. They should know exactly how much each team has in cash reserves, how long each team can last if they push things. They should have an agreed on endgame that they’ve been working to this whole time. He can personally lead them on that and if he did so, it would have increased the trust of the union that they were negotiating fairly and avoided lost of this last minute scrambling. He hasn’t done so. I agree. So why aren't owners asking those questions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 5 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: If the union caves on the international draft (at least kicking it down the road to Nov 15) it seems like a deal is possible. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 How's this, the entire ownership team sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 Just now, Chicago White Sox said: If the union caves on the international draft (at least kicking it down the road to Nov 15) it seems like a deal is possible. That was their proposal last night...just after the deadline, which is why MLB said, "Too late losers. We're cancelling games!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 4 minutes ago, Tnetennba said: He’s about as helpful as a cardboard cutout. The rest I just can’t agree with. I hope he’s jettisoned with a quickness once the ink is dry on a new CBA. Yes he works for the owners and his goals are to line their coffers and steer things in their favour, but he’s been pretty terrible for the game itself. The infighting amongst ownership speaks to his ineffectual leadership and the lockout has failed miserably in achieving ownership’s states goals. He deserves nothing but to fade into obscurity come Opening Day. To be replaced by a similar puppet. Kuhn was the last semi talented commissioner that at least pretended to care about something other than ownership. I wish a new plan with more player input in the commissioner office was possible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said: If the union caves on the international draft (at least kicking it down the road to Nov 15) it seems like a deal is possible. Assuming there aren’t other minor hang ups or gaps that haven’t been heavily reported out, I would agree. The draft seems to be a bigger sticking point than I thought it would be, but if they can agree to hammer it out over the season while agreeing on the rest would could potentially have a deal in the very near future. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 4 minutes ago, Texsox said: How's this, the entire ownership team sucks. I wholeheartedly agree there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.