The MLB lockout is lifted!

[chetkincaid]

On 10/31/2021 at 11:59 PM, South Side Hit Men said:

Instead they are footing the bill for substantially higher tickets, parking, concession and RCN prices, whereas player salaries remain stagnant, below inflation, nearly every penny of it going to the Owners.

• 2011 White Sox Payroll: $127.7M vs, 2021 $128.7M, a 0.7% increase.
• 2011 Cubs Payroll: $134.0M vs. 2021 $147.8M, a 10.2% increase.

Perhaps you don't get a chance to go to many games in Chicago, but tell me have tickets, parking, beers, food, cable bills increased 0.7% the past decade in Texas?

Most major league players earn at or near the minimum salary. Without factoring in survivor bias (only a small number of total professional ballplayers reach the Majors), most last a few years, most don't reach FA and many who do are colluded against by the owners the past few decades. Not to mention having to pay the highest tax brackets for their short careers.

Whereas the owners are getting billions from taxpayers in terms of subsidies, have substantial expense write-offs which minimize any taxes, defer capital gain taxes for decades, own teams in perpetuity without any free market interference courtesy of their Congressionally awarded monopoly. The same owners who paid millions to bribe Congress to avoid paying minor league players a minimum wage.

This makes me never want to spend another dime on the White Sox. I know I will but it’s disgusting. 

[Balta1701]

Just now, Texsox said:

Prices will never decline,  at best they hold steady or increase at less than the rate of inflation. 

 

So you are wrong about it being the greedy players’ fault?

[caulfield12]

39 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Prices will never decline,  at best they hold steady or increase at less than the rate of inflation. 

 

Sox ticket prices from 2012 to 2019 weren’t cheaper, adjusted for inflation…than 2006-2011?

[caulfield12]

Haven’t ticket prices for the NFL and NBA and even the NHL increased more dramatically over the last 20-30 years than for MLB?

The simple solution has always been going to more minor league games for the more casual fans who just want a fun night out occasionally with their family.

Or we could blame both political parties for “easy money” policies, tax cuts, Covid relief programs, etc., injecting too much money to prop up the markets.

Between grocery bills, energy bills, home prices, used cars, gasoline, health care, education…everything has been skyrocketing.

 

Or just look at the markets for crypto, hedge funds for institutional clients, NFTs, SPAC’s.

It used to feel good to have a couple of million.  Now, you’re nothing without $5 if not being a deca millionaire in many parts of the US, especially the East and West coasts.

Then there’s the 80% of the country that will never come close to accumulating even $1 million, let alone $500-750,000…in a lifetime of scrimping and saving.

[NWINFan]

With 1994, fans were angry at the players, angry at the owners, or angry at both. In the end, it really didn't matter. There was an intense backlash, and it was double-edged sword. Baseball suffered greatly for it. Very few gained from the stoppage although the owners were slapped down for not bargaining in good faith.

The Sox truly suffered in the aftermath of 1994 and will suffer again. A team can't develop young talent if that young talent is sitting on the sidelines during a strike. Sox fans will be plenty angry if the rebuild yields little winning. One more time of a team being on the verge of something only to have it stopped by something like this will set the franchise back years.

I don't have a great deal of sympathy for the owners. Their business is a legally protected monopoly and many of their stadiums have been built with taxpayer money. Losing teams can still make money, and small market teams rarely go the Series. Any attempt to break the players' union will be short-sighted and futile. Baseball has some big problems. This won't help.

 

[raBBit]

18 hours ago, Texsox said:

Thread title is work stoppage. It is about the business of baseball. 

Right that's why I was confused about you talking about gold toilets, plumbers, etc.

On 10/31/2021 at 11:59 PM, South Side Hit Men said:

Instead they are footing the bill for substantially higher tickets, parking, concession and RCN prices, whereas player salaries remain stagnant, below inflation, nearly every penny of it going to the Owners.

• 2011 White Sox Payroll: $127.7M vs, 2021 $128.7M, a 0.7% increase.
• 2011 Cubs Payroll: $134.0M vs. 2021 $147.8M, a 10.2% increase.

Perhaps you don't get a chance to go to many games in Chicago, but tell me have tickets, parking, beers, food, cable bills increased 0.7% the past decade in Texas?

Most major league players earn at or near the minimum salary. Without factoring in survivor bias (only a small number of total professional ballplayers reach the Majors), most last a few years, most don't reach FA and many who do are colluded against by the owners the past few decades. Not to mention having to pay the highest tax brackets for their short careers.

Whereas the owners are getting billions from taxpayers in terms of subsidies, have

1- substantial expense write-offs which minimize any taxes,

2 - defer capital gain taxes for decades,

3 - own teams in perpetuity without any free market interference courtesy of their Congressionally awarded monopoly.

4 - The same owners who paid millions to bribe Congress to avoid paying minor league players a minimum wage.

Choosing 2011 as the year is entirely arbitrary and you chose that year because you can make your desired argument. For instance, I could make a case for the other side using your arbitrary process. 

• 2018 White Sox Payroll: $71.2M vs 2021 $128.7M, an 81% increase.

Perhaps you don't get a chance to go to many games in Chicago, but tell me have tickets, parking, beers, food, cable bills increased 81% the past few years?

-------

"Whereas the owners are getting billions from taxpayers in terms of subsidies, have substantial expense write-offs which minimize any taxes, defer capital gain taxes for decades, own teams in perpetuity without any free market interference courtesy of their Congressionally awarded monopoly. The same owners who paid millions to bribe Congress to avoid paying minor league players a minimum wage."

1 - Which "substantial expense write-offs" are you referring to? And what does that have to do with the CBA and/or a potential stoppage? Seems like you have a gripe with the tax code which there is plenty to take exception to but not sure it is relevant.

2 - What do you mean by "defer capital gain taxes for decades"? Also, how do you know that these private entities are deferring capital gains when their financials are not public?

3 - What? 

4 - I think you're talking about the "Saving America's Past Time" Bill or whatever it was. Minor league pay has been a very serious issue. That said, that bill is from several years ago. Since then, the MLB has raised the pay by ~50% and pledged to offer housing to minor leaguers. It is a start in the right direction but still more is needed. Frankly, I am not sure how minor leaguers aren't protected by fair labor/minimum wage practices.

However, in the context of this thread, when do people start to call upon the MLBPA to support minor leaguers? The MLBPA regularly bargains away the rights of non-union members (non-40 man MiLB players, amateurs with futures, etc.) to serve the interest of their union members. The MLBPA should take in the minor leaguers. Or the minor leaguers should make their own union like the affiliate leagues in the NBA or NHL have. 

Edited November 2, 2021 by raBBit

[CentralChamps21]

Do FOX/TBS get a refund of rights fees from MLB if the postseason doesn't happen due to a work stoppage? If so, that's the players' best leverage. Write a check to us now or to FOX/TBS in October.

[Texsox]

9 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

So you are wrong about it being the greedy players’ fault?

It's all their faults. No one is advocating for the fans and the fans won't advocate for themselves. Instead they cheer one side or the other when both sides are just trying to take more money from them. 

In the end the players will win a little,  the owners will break even,  and the fans will lose again. 

[Balta1701]

52 minutes ago, Texsox said:

It's all their faults. No one is advocating for the fans and the fans won't advocate for themselves. Instead they cheer one side or the other when both sides are just trying to take more money from them. 

In the end the players will win a little,  the owners will break even,  and the fans will lose again. 

 

[Jack Parkman]

1 hour ago, Texsox said:

It's all their faults. No one is advocating for the fans and the fans won't advocate for themselves. Instead they cheer one side or the other when both sides are just trying to take more money from them. 

In the end the players will win a little,  the owners will break even,  and the fans will lose again. 

It's still the owners fault. 

Sports franchises aren't supposed to be legitimate businesses but rather a hobby/toy for the ultra-wealthy. 

They're supposed to be happy taking a loss to win. They're not, and that's the problem in the end. 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[caulfield12]

12 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

 

Job creators, those owners and conglomerates are...simple supply side economics.

Maybe the White Sox should just forget about analytics and pleasing/appeasing fans in general and just plug all their surplus revenues into farmland, fine art and space exploration SPAC's...just like average baseball fans (age 57) are doing right now.

Edited November 2, 2021 by caulfield12

[Texsox]

3 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

 

Thebowners will give in on some player demands then raise prices or blackmail some government for some tax breaks and their profits will be just fine. They won’t lose.

[Balta1701]

23 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Thebowners will give in on some player demands then raise prices or blackmail some government for some tax breaks and their profits will be just fine. They won’t lose.

That's not "breaking even"

[South Side Hit Men]

13 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

That's not "breaking even"

Breaking Bad more accurate.

 

[Texsox]

8 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

That's not "breaking even"

Do you think they will lose? Money? Never happens. They just take more of the fan’s money and hand it to the players while keeping their cut the same or even find a way to make more money. 
 

so ok, maybe they will win also. But they won’t lose. The only losers will be the fans again. 

[bmags]

On 11/2/2021 at 4:50 AM, bmags said:

Are the players reps and league even at the table working on this now or is it expected to kick into gear after the WS?

So will we actually hear news on this front now?

[Balta1701]

3 hours ago, Texsox said:

Do you think they will lose? Money? Never happens. They just take more of the fan’s money and hand it to the players while keeping their cut the same or even find a way to make more money. 
 

so ok, maybe they will win also. But they won’t lose. The only losers will be the fans again. 

Ok, I have to admit, I don’t understand this sentiment at all. I can really only think of a few times in my life I felt really screwed by a baseball team and neither of them were because the game was too expensive, it’s stuff like Hahn in 2015-2016 or the LaRussa hire. I have been going to ballgames all my life, it’s a form of entertainment, so I get to decide how much I want to spend on it. What does it cost for an upper deck ticket? I can get them for the third game of the season on Seatgeek right now for $15, plus either parking or a train. That’s getting screwed? When I was a broke college student I had to pick between that and seats at the RCA dome and I alternated each year. When I was a grad student I paid like $25 a ticket for the outfield at Dodgers stadium, got all you can eat hot dogs, and cheered for Jenks in person like 10 feet away as he was warming up. These days I often get better seats, and I have never once felt “I’m getting screwed by being here”. 

Why? Because prices aren’t being set by either the honored owners or the greedy ball players, they’re being set by people like me. That is supply and demand. If I am going to pay $75 a ticket, it should seem worth it to me based on the experience, and typically it is. I was at the game where Farquhar recognized a sound coming out of the Astros dugout, Keuchel started against him. Only thing I regret about that game is getting in the Shake Shack line as it took forever. If they give a crappy experience or they triple those ticket prices - real simple, I go spend my money elsewhere. I could have an entertaining day at a casino or amusement park or sit at home drinking pumpkin beer and watching Star Trek if I don’t want to spend that money on baseball (narrator - and he did that last weekend).

Prices at the ballpark are set by that. If they’re too expensive, I go do something else, or I raid a McDonald’s before I get there so I don’t have to buy food. I wouldn’t really want to go to more than a handful of games a year, but if someone else does, they can decide if that’s how they want to spend their money and time. If I feel like I’m being screwed it’s not like there aren’t a thousand other ways to spend my money and time.

Players salaries, owners profits, revenue, they are set by what I will pay for the product they give me. Now if you want to talk about stagnant wages and how union policy, tax policy, health care policy, and unionization policy affect those things, it might be an interesting conversation and there are plenty of ways where I’d agree I feel like lots of people are getting screwed. A too expensive beer at a ballpark? Not one of them, I can just not buy it. Frankly, me making that decision hurts their business too, because if I hadn’t been able to go to ballgames as a kid I probably wouldn’t be a baseball fan now.

[raBBit]

15 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

It's still the owners fault. 

Sports franchises aren't supposed to be legitimate businesses but rather a hobby/toy for the ultra-wealthy. 

They're supposed to be happy taking a loss to win. They're not, and that's the problem in the end. 

What are you talking about? "Sports franchises aren't supposed to be legitimate businesses" - says who? In what world are you living in where the best businesspeople in the world are supposed to be happy taking a loss? You don't seem to have any understanding of what you're talking about. 

[South Side Hit Men]

https://theathletic.com/2925206/2021/11/01/minor-leaguers-cite-steve-cohen-tweet-in-class-action-bid-to-force-mlb-to-produce-back-pay/?source=emp_shared_article

How the "Millionaire" class lives.

Quote

By now, the details of the poor pay and difficult lifestyle of minor leaguers, roughly 90 percent of whom won’t reach the majors, are well established. Stories of three to four sleeping in one room, eating poorly, and sometimes skipping meals on, in some cases, $190 a week salaries are commonplace. MLB operates the MiLB system and pays the players.....

“Many of my colleagues have struggled to be able to eat even enough to sustain their body,” 

"Let them eat cake."

[southsider2k5]

Way to not only get Jerry in there, but also Tony.  That's quality agenda work.  I admire your dedication.

[Jack Parkman]

3 hours ago, raBBit said:

What are you talking about? "Sports franchises aren't supposed to be legitimate businesses" - says who? In what world are you living in where the best businesspeople in the world are supposed to be happy taking a loss? You don't seem to have any understanding of what you're talking about. 

They have evolved into rich people's plaything. We can agree to disagree on this. It's not worth it. 

If the owners aren't willing to run the team with the sole purpose of winning championships then they have no business being a sports franchise owner. The goal in sports is to win championships, not make a profit. 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[Kyyle23]

3 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

They have evolved into rich people's plaything. We can agree to disagree on this. It's not worth it. 

If the owners aren't willing to run the team with the sole purpose of winning championships then they have no business being a sports franchise owner. The goal in sports is to win championships, not make a profit. 

Any business goal is to make a profit.  It is silly to think otherwise

[Jack Parkman]

30 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Any business goal is to make a profit.  It is silly to think otherwise

Then I never want to hear anyone else complain about Jerry's(or any other owner for that matter) budget again. 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[Kyyle23]

1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said:

Then I never want to hear anyone else complain about Jerry's(or any other owner for that matter) budget again. 

Has nothing to do with what you are saying 

[Chimpton]

Just a quick question from a position of ignorance! Does a potential work stoppage affect whether sides will sign free agents or do trades or delay it?