poppysox Posted December 30, 2021 Share Posted December 30, 2021 4 hours ago, southsider2k5 said: He said it, yet the won't meet. Sounds like a lie to me. Sounds like typical union/management negotiations to me. Both sides will ask for outrageous things and ultimately settle claiming they gave up more than they intended. At this point, I would say very expected responses on both sides. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 30, 2021 Author Share Posted December 30, 2021 21 minutes ago, poppysox said: Sounds like typical union/management negotiations to me. Both sides will ask for outrageous things and ultimately settle claiming they gave up more than they intended. At this point, I would say very expected responses on both sides. Outrageous things. Like meeting and talking about the economic issues of the game. Whoa, that's crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted December 30, 2021 Share Posted December 30, 2021 9 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Outrageous things. Like meeting and talking about the economic issues of the game. Whoa, that's crazy. Do you seriously not understand the point I am making? Why don't you try stating what YOU think is going on with the talks instead of implying others just don't understand? You and others with your point of view simply come off as intolerant of other people's views. I get that you think the players are 100% going to stand together and take away all the money that the evil owners have. My view is the players will make some modest gains after a few months of posturing and the fans will pay for whatever those gains end up being. The art of negotiations is to let both sides claim some victory and admit to not getting everything we hoped for. My prediction is this will take another 6-8 weeks and end with the words like I just indicated. If you disagree...state what you think will be the outcome and we will see who is correct in their point of view. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 30, 2021 Author Share Posted December 30, 2021 40 minutes ago, poppysox said: Do you seriously not understand the point I am making? Why don't you try stating what YOU think is going on with the talks instead of implying others just don't understand? You and others with your point of view simply come off as intolerant of other people's views. I get that you think the players are 100% going to stand together and take away all the money that the evil owners have. My view is the players will make some modest gains after a few months of posturing and the fans will pay for whatever those gains end up being. The art of negotiations is to let both sides claim some victory and admit to not getting everything we hoped for. My prediction is this will take another 6-8 weeks and end with the words like I just indicated. If you disagree...state what you think will be the outcome and we will see who is correct in their point of view. I stated what I thought was happening, but you didn't believe the reports and then tried to turn it into a "both sides" thing. And again, you are just making up things that no one is actually saying. I am talking about reports and news stories here, and you keep going off into the weeds. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted December 30, 2021 Share Posted December 30, 2021 9 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: I stated what I thought was happening, but you didn't believe the reports and then tried to turn it into a "both sides" thing. And again, you are just making up things that no one is actually saying. I am talking about reports and news stories here, and you keep going off into the weeds. Yes...I see. You have more faith in the press than I do. Union negotiations are a "two sides" thing whether you want to believe it or not. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 22 hours ago, Sleepy Harold said: The players doing the capitalism will ruin the game? I'd suggest watching the interview Rose had with Giolito, Britton, and Semien. It was informative and shed some light on aspects of the process that I was unaware of. Not expecting it to change you mind or anything, but it's interesting. Thank you for the suggestion to watch the Rose interview with Gio, Britton, and Semien. I agree that it was informative and shed light on the player's perspective of the process. It would be great if Rose could do the same with a trio of owners. The players framed their position as wanting to incentivize teams to be competitive which I support totally. They want to "realize their potential earlier" which will be a very hard sell IMO...and they don't want to give back what they have already won such as arbitration and free agency which I agree is a reasonable position to take. They also stated clearly that both sides "want baseball to be successful". Zach made the interesting comment that we understand this is a business and negotiating has tactics. The largest frustration is the players feel their proposals are clear and the owners have been unresponsive. I have not changed my opinions because this interview follows what I have been saying: 1) it is normal for both sides in any union negotiation to ask for things they know they will not get...2) until a lockout or strike no one is motivated to give up any negotiation leverage...3) when people miss paychecks or revenues everyone involved gets much more serious about what they can really live with...4) the average fan is not happy with what is perceived as spoiled rich kid players and filthy rich baseball owners fighting over how to split up all the money the fans give them. Thanks for the respectful suggestion to watch what is an hour-long interview. Likewise, I hope you see this as a thoughtful and respectful response. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 It seems we established that the owners have gained more revenue than the players so it lies on the owners to make things right. Reduced service time, raise the minimum wage, 200M ceiling and 100M floor, expand arbitration, draft lottery to limit tanking. The owners must step forward and in doing so keep team equity off the table. If Rob is a labor lawyer these steps should be clear. Let's get the ball rolling first of the year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 8 minutes ago, pcq said: It seems we established that the owners have gained more revenue than the players so it lies on the owners to make things right. Reduced service time, raise the minimum wage, 200M ceiling and 100M floor, expand arbitration, draft lottery to limit tanking. The owners must step forward and in doing so keep team equity off the table. If Rob is a labor lawyer these steps should be clear. Let's get the ball rolling first of the year. A $100 million floor among 30 teams locks in a revenue distribution that is something like 45%. The players will sit out 5 years before they do that. If you want a cap and floor that the players will go along with, you have to give them something that is better than any other offer they get without a cap. $250 million cap and $200 million floor, adjusting for revenue growth, so they're getting 70-65% of revenue. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 Players will sit out five years.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 37 minutes ago, pcq said: Players will sit out five years.. Balta being Balta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 (edited) 38 minutes ago, pcq said: Players will sit out five years.. Yeah, that seems accurate. Might as well halt your income and get a real job, because employers everywhere are nothing but fair to all their employees. Edited December 31, 2021 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 The owners wanting a setup like that, the players saying that was their one red line, and Reinsdorf having the owners ready for baseball to be gone for years to see if they could break the union until a court stepped in and said that what the owners were doing wasn’t legal is the short summary of the 1994 strike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 15 hours ago, Balta1701 said: A $100 million floor among 30 teams locks in a revenue distribution that is something like 45%. The players will sit out 5 years before they do that. If you want a cap and floor that the players will go along with, you have to give them something that is better than any other offer they get without a cap. $250 million cap and $200 million floor, adjusting for revenue growth, so they're getting 70-65% of revenue. Five years? That means many of the players will never play another game. I'm not certain there is that much unity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 3 minutes ago, Texsox said: Five years? That means many of the players will never play another game. I'm not certain there is that much unity. It would be really hard for anyone to take 5 years off and be any good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 1 hour ago, Dick Allen said: It would be really hard for anyone to take 5 years off and be any good. If the owners really tried to insist on a salary cap that low, we’d see Reinsdorf’s Replacements again and whether or not the players could create something on their own might turn on whether the anti-trust exemption were to be removed by Congress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: If the owners really tried to insist on a salary cap that low, we’d see Reinsdorf’s Replacements again and whether or not the players could create something on their own might turn on whether the anti-trust exemption were to be removed by Congress. Not for 5 years. I think owners know replacements won't work, and the players aren't going to be able to start up another league even if the anti-trust exemption were removed. It would cost way too much money. Where are they going to play? This will be resolved one way or another before June, and the owners will win just like the rest of life where the people with more money usually win. Edited December 31, 2021 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 So players would walk away from their careers? I admire their willingness to sacrifice themselves like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 Five years is worth it for 75% revenue. Everyone can KBO and Wayne Chung for a while. Also Cien Fuegos has some openings. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NWINFan Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 1 hour ago, Dick Allen said: Not for 5 years. I think owners know replacements won't work, and the players aren't going to be able to start up another league even if the anti-trust exemption were removed. It would cost way too much money. Where are they going to play? This will be resolved one way or another before June, and the owners will win just like the rest of life where the people with more money usually win. The owners may win as you say, but if the season is delayed until June, it won't be much of a win. The fan backlash for any kind of a strike or lockout will be severe. And if any stoppage derails the White Sox as they are supposed to put the final retouches on the rebuild, local fan alienation will be worse than it was after 1994. I don't know the complications of the current labor issues, but I can't see how either side can believe a prolonged delay to the 2022 season will benefit them. Baseball has enough problems as it is without this going on and on. They should get a good mediator, act like adults, and get this thing settled. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 48 minutes ago, NWINFan said: The owners may win as you say, but if the season is delayed until June, it won't be much of a win. The fan backlash for any kind of a strike or lockout will be severe. And if any stoppage derails the White Sox as they are supposed to put the final retouches on the rebuild, local fan alienation will be worse than it was after 1994. I don't know the complications of the current labor issues, but I can't see how either side can believe a prolonged delay to the 2022 season will benefit them. Baseball has enough problems as it is without this going on and on. They should get a good mediator, act like adults, and get this thing settled. Jerry Reinsdorf, by all accounts is a bright guy. The last work stoppage cost him who knows how much, but as much or more than anyone in the game. The team had a spell after winning the WS where it was back to that level, but it was brief. They really have never been the same. Yet he was the lone guy to vote against Manfred believing he was too soft towards the union. Will history repeat itself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 47 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: Jerry Reinsdorf, by all accounts is a bright guy. The last work stoppage cost him who knows how much, but as much or more than anyone in the game. The team had a spell after winning the WS where it was back to that level, but it was brief. They really have never been the same. Yet he was the lone guy to vote against Manfred believing he was too soft towards the union. Will history repeat itself? Would Jerry Reinsdorf risk the health of his billion dollar business to settle a grudge a few decades old? Happy New Year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 2 hours ago, Texsox said: So players would walk away from their careers? I admire their willingness to sacrifice themselves like that. I expect the players to win the point of raising the minimum a team needs to spend to around $100. The point of more competitiveness is just too valid to ignore. Some form of lottery to discourage tanking also has some legs IMO. Universal DH will also be a slam dunk and the owners will claim that is a win for players. Wanting a faster track to arbitration and free agency is one of those players "asks" things that they know is a non-starter. Six to eight weeks is still my educated guess. Longer than that and it starts to get expensive for both sides. The deepest pockets will almost always win that line-in-the-sand point of negotiations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 I like the notion where the best non-playoff records draft first. That would help keep it fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NWINFan Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 2 hours ago, Dick Allen said: Jerry Reinsdorf, by all accounts is a bright guy. The last work stoppage cost him who knows how much, but as much or more than anyone in the game. The team had a spell after winning the WS where it was back to that level, but it was brief. They really have never been the same. Yet he was the lone guy to vote against Manfred believing he was too soft towards the union. Will history repeat itself? If history repeats itself, Jerry Reinsdorf will not be a bright guy. First, he re-hires someone because of something that happened over thirty years ago. And now he would want to get even for 1994? Hey, Jerry, look at yourself. I don't know how much influence he has with other owners. But he should use whatever influence he has to stop this thing. Even if he can contribute to destroying the union, he would only destroy his franchise along with it. Maybe he doesn't care about any legacy he will have. But I wouldn't want to leave this mess behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2Jimmy0 Posted January 1, 2022 Share Posted January 1, 2022 16 hours ago, poppysox said: I expect the players to win the point of raising the minimum a team needs to spend to around $100. The point of more competitiveness is just too valid to ignore. Some form of lottery to discourage tanking also has some legs IMO. Universal DH will also be a slam dunk and the owners will claim that is a win for players. Wanting a faster track to arbitration and free agency is one of those players "asks" things that they know is a non-starter. Six to eight weeks is still my educated guess. Longer than that and it starts to get expensive for both sides. The deepest pockets will almost always win that line-in-the-sand point of negotiations. I don't think there's any way a salary floor is going in. 23 owners will never agree to something like that. The players want less revenue sharing for the small markets which has been a non-starter so far. They should aim for the number at the top end to go higher so the big market clubs can spend more and they should be pushing to significantly raise the major league minimum salary. They just have given up too much in previous negotiations to win very much back here unless they're willing to miss a season and history says that they aren't willing to do that. 16 hours ago, pcq said: I like the notion where the best non-playoff records draft first. That would help keep it fair. I'm not a fan of this. Something needs to be done (no top five in successive years, lottery, etc) but this is too far. A team like the Diamondbacks wasn't taking last year. They're just bad. They deserve the #2 overall pick. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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