poppysox Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 5 minutes ago, Texsox said: The minimum really doesn't force any competitive balance. The amount of talent available stays the same. If the Dodgers are paying a player 2x what a small market is currently paying they could continue to offer 2x the small market price and the player doesn't move. Basically for competitive balance the playoff teams should lose talented players to the non playoff teams. The Sox should be selling not buying. I think if every team needed to spend a minimum of say 75 million...that would require many additional millions to be spent on players. Some of those millions would filter to many if not all major league players. Instead, this idea of a bonus pool for pre-arbitration players who perform well helps less than 5% of players. Baseball should stop worrying about the star players. They will make fist full of money in their careers. I am far more sympathetic to the journeyman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 19 minutes ago, poppysox said: I think if every team needed to spend a minimum of say 75 million...that would require many additional millions to be spent on players. Some of those millions would filter to many if not all major league players. Instead, this idea of a bonus pool for pre-arbitration players who perform well helps less than 5% of players. Baseball should stop worrying about the star players. They will make fist full of money in their careers. I am far more sympathetic to the journeyman. The union has also asked for about a 20% increase in the minimum salary that would affect the journeymen directly at a cost of about $1-$2 million per team. The owners oppose it, and have offered about a 2% increase. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 8 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: The union has also asked for about a 20% increase in the minimum salary that would affect the journeymen directly at a cost of about $1-$2 million per team. The owners oppose it, and have offered about a 2% increase. All part of negotiations. Don't get too upset until you see the final agreement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold's Leg Lift Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 2 hours ago, hogan873 said: Should be pretty wild. Hopefully the Sox get involved. I expect them to sign a big bat. They tried before the lockout but got their doors blown off. I'm hoping they're using this time to reassess the market to better understand exactly how much really good players cost. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 2, 2022 Author Share Posted February 2, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirmin' for Yermin Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 59 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said: I expect them to sign a big bat. They tried before the lockout but got their doors blown off. I'm hoping they're using this time to reassess the market to better understand exactly how much really good players cost. Semien I presume? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 Just now, Squirmin' for Yermin said: Semien I presume? He already signed with the Rangers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 3 minutes ago, poppysox said: He already signed with the Rangers. He's talking about how they tried to sign someone but they misread the market. Semien seems to be the guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 2, 2022 Author Share Posted February 2, 2022 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 2 hours ago, Bob Sacamano said: He's talking about how they tried to sign someone but they misread the market. Semien seems to be the guy. Boras listed every team that talked to him about Semien in an article for ESPN. The White Sox never even put in a call to indicate interest. They made 0 efforts on Semien. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirmin' for Yermin Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 1 hour ago, Balta1701 said: Boras listed every team that talked to him about Semien in an article for ESPN. The White Sox never even put in a call to indicate interest. They made 0 efforts on Semien. Wonder who Harold is talking about though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 20 hours ago, Balta1701 said: Because the owners refused to make any complete proposal until the lockout had already gone on for 43 days. Yea, the owners are fucking this up. A big reason is that Manfred isn't removed enough (unlike say Silver) from the ownership cabal to look them in the eye and tell them that they are going to kill the golden goose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 13 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said: Yea, the owners are fucking this up. A big reason is that Manfred isn't removed enough (unlike say Silver) from the ownership cabal to look them in the eye and tell them that they are going to kill the golden goose. There was zero reason they couldn't have made the offer they made mid-January in late November instead, in reply to the Players' original offer which they detailed in November. We might well still be in a lockout (which is again optional to the owners), but then we could have been doing this griping in early December rather than in February. They chose to have this negotiation happen under the threat of loss of games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 25 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: There was zero reason they couldn't have made the offer they made mid-January in late November instead, in reply to the Players' original offer which they detailed in November. We might well still be in a lockout (which is again optional to the owners), but then we could have been doing this griping in early December rather than in February. They chose to have this negotiation happen under the threat of loss of games. Right, that was their plan the entire time, I don't think anybody is surprised. I posted a couple weeks ago how dire I feel the situation is. Nothing has changed since then to move me off the idea that at best we'll play 100 games and there is a decent (so maybe 1/3) chance the entire season is cancelled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 12 hours ago, Texsox said: Hopefully some players and scientists are getting together and discovering new ways of cheating to save the game like last time. The owners could end this now. Just accept the proposal and move on. I'm looking over what some are suggesting will be the hardest to resolve issues and I can't get excited about either position. Super 2 arb? Great, I'll take either side or anywhere in the middle if it means a settlement. Revenue sharing? Sure, either side or settle anywhere in the middle. I'm pro settle this fast. Loss of revenue will ultimately hurt both parties involved along with other non-player personnel. Both sides want this resolved but it takes time for reality to set in. I would imagine the owners are already seeing the advanced ticket sales plummet. The players will be missing those first paychecks shortly. Over the next few weeks, the pace of negotiations will pick up considerably IMO. Over 80% of current players have nothing to gain in this set of negotiations with the things being asked for by the union. It's hard to keep that kind of employee group united. I keep using Leury Garcia as my classic example. A nice player but nothing special. Just signs a 16.5 million over a 3-year contract. What's in it for him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, poppysox said: Loss of revenue will ultimately hurt both parties involved along with other non-player personnel. Both sides want this resolved but it takes time for reality to set in. I would imagine the owners are already seeing the advanced ticket sales plummet. The players will be missing those first paychecks shortly. Over the next few weeks, the pace of negotiations will pick up considerably IMO. Over 80% of current players have nothing to gain in this set of negotiations with the things being asked for by the union. It's hard to keep that kind of employee group united. I keep using Leury Garcia as my classic example. A nice player but nothing special. Just signs a 16.5 million over a 3-year contract. What's in it for him? You'd think these playes are so rich (even the minimum contract is nice) they'd want to get this thing settled fast so they don't lose games. I guess they have to shut up and just trust the union leader as always. The world is so much in chaos right now with viruses and possible wars I can't imagine either side wanting to miss games. Baseball already is unpopular. Any stoppage is just going to lose more fans for a dying sport. Play ball. Edited February 3, 2022 by greg775 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarava Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 (edited) 12 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said: Right, that was their plan the entire time, I don't think anybody is surprised. I posted a couple weeks ago how dire I feel the situation is. Nothing has changed since then to move me off the idea that at best we'll play 100 games and there is a decent (so maybe 1/3) chance the entire season is cancelled. Neither side is going to budge much until we're at a point of serious chance of major cancellations. We're not there yet and honestly, we're not even close to that point yet. Both sides are trying to bluff the other side in to thinking they will hold their line even if it misses half the season or all the season. They'll both cave when the time comes. If the season starts a little bit late, who cares. Edited February 3, 2022 by Sarava Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 2 hours ago, Sarava said: Neither side is going to budge much until we're at a point of serious chance of major cancellations. We're not there yet and honestly, we're not even close to that point yet. Both sides are trying to bluff the other side in to thinking they will hold their line even if it misses half the season or all the season. They'll both cave when the time comes. If the season starts a little bit late, who cares. Looking at the offers, I think if you went in the middle of the 2 on the luxury tax line, minimum salary, and the bonus pool, and kept super-2 contracts existing, that’s an offer the union would probably take. But if the owners are saying “this is our final offer”, the union isn’t going to negotiate against themselves to see if the owners will budge. They apparently dropped their ask on the bonus pool by $5 million on Tuesday and got nothing in return, so why would they drop their ask by 10x that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 The owners could end this anytime they want and still have money for many generations of descendants. Players would still be earning at the MLB level much more than they could anywhere else and have money for their descendants. The only threat to their wealth is a bunch of too big egos who can't come up with an agreement. This is insanity. Unlike most strikes/work stoppages in our history both sides could live very comfortably with the previous agreement. They aren't fighting over unsafe working conditions, poverty wages, business about to fail without concessions from the workers, etc. The fight is over how to share the profits of a very profitable business. I wish there was something truly nobel for them to fight over. I could dig in and argue with the best of them. But in a world where people are starving, face persecution and wars these idiots are fighting over when someone should be arb eligible?! One side is saying $600,000 isn't enough and the other side can pay $750,000 but won't? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 1 hour ago, Balta1701 said: Looking at the offers, I think if you went in the middle of the 2 on the luxury tax line, minimum salary, and the bonus pool, and kept super-2 contracts existing, that’s an offer the union would probably take. But if the owners are saying “this is our final offer”, the union isn’t going to negotiate against themselves to see if the owners will budge. They apparently dropped their ask on the bonus pool by $5 million on Tuesday and got nothing in return, so why would they drop their ask by 10x that? Eh, I'm sure owners by waiting are trying to make sure when they offer that the players accept it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 7 minutes ago, Texsox said: The owners could end this anytime they want and still have money for many generations of descendants. Players would still be earning at the MLB level much more than they could anywhere else and have money for their descendants. The only threat to their wealth is a bunch of too big egos who can't come up with an agreement. This is insanity. Unlike most strikes/work stoppages in our history both sides could live very comfortably with the previous agreement. They aren't fighting over unsafe working conditions, poverty wages, business about to fail without concessions from the workers, etc. The fight is over how to share the profits of a very profitable business. I wish there was something truly nobel for them to fight over. I could dig in and argue with the best of them. But in a world where people are starving, face persecution and wars these idiots are fighting over when someone should be arb eligible?! One side is saying $600,000 isn't enough and the other side can pay $750,000 but won't? Some people won't be happy until they kill the golden goose. Average guys who deliver the mail or deliver appliances live for their ballgame for a few hours of escape from reality. I don't care if the players get another million or not. This forum has nothing but die-hard fans and yet it has been dead. Baseball ought to worry when the people who are really into their team are this apathetic. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 3, 2022 Author Share Posted February 3, 2022 Let's be honest here. Expanded playoffs are happening, almost certainly. The players will trade it for something they want. Better arbitration, higher minimums, something. They will get some cash, and the owners will get their new money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 8 minutes ago, bmags said: Eh, I'm sure owners by waiting are trying to make sure when they offer that the players accept it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Let's be honest here. Expanded playoffs are happening, almost certainly. The players will trade it for something they want. Better arbitration, higher minimums, something. They will get some cash, and the owners will get their new money. I hope it comes with a shorter season and greater percentage of the playoff gate to the players. That to me is a win for both sides and the fans. (I acknowledge that some fans prefer regular season games to playoff games). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 26 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: If the owners offer that now, it could get negotiated up. If you offer it in two weeks, it probably gets accepted. Or so the thought goes among the people that are forcing its customers to eat shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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