Sox give no qualifying offers

[Chicago White Sox]

4 hours ago, GreenSox said:

It's the context:  Rodon option declined while Kimbrel was exercised.  Under no objective measure is using $16 million on Kimbrel a wise investment.

If there are concerns about his health, then why shoot for a longer deal?

And it's the context: not picking up 18.4 for Rodon, while exercising $16 for Kimbrel.  The 18.4 is dependent on his health; but the $16 is objectively a large overpay in any circumstance.
 

For the love of god we aren’t keeping Kimbrel.  The decisions are not related whatsoever.

[Chicago White Sox]

5 hours ago, GreenSox said:

It's the context:  Rodon option declined while Kimbrel was exercised.  Under no objective measure is using $16 million on Kimbrel a wise investment.

If there are concerns about his health, then why shoot for a longer deal?

And it's the context: not picking up 18.4 for Rodon, while exercising $16 for Kimbrel.  The 18.4 is dependent on his health; but the $16 is objectively a large overpay in any circumstance.
 

Also, Iglesias just got a QO for $18.4M based on a 2.83 FIP / 2.0 fWAR season, whereas Kimbrel is a “large overpay under any circumstance” despite a 2.43 FIP / 2.2 fWAR season.  ?‍♂️

[Chicago White Sox]

4 hours ago, poppysox said:

Maybe they want to have Rodon test the water and realize an incentive-laced deal is the best he is going to get.  I don't think 18 million is the chump change some here think.

I really don’t think they have any interest in bringing him unless it’s on the team friendliest of deals.  They ran his arm into the ground this year and now are moving on to better and safer long-term options.

[Chicago White Sox]

4 hours ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Even more crazy: 38 year old Verlander, who has thrown 6 innings combined the last 2 years, received a QO.

Verlander had Tommy John surgery, so kind of explainable why he only threw six innings the last two years.  Regardless, he made 454 starts over his career and amassed 72 fWAR, including 13.0 over the 2018 & 2019 seasons.  He is nothing like Carlos Rodon and more than deserving of a QO IMO.

[Chicago White Sox]

3 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

The fact that they decided they could only have one is precisely the issue.

You are drawing a connection that doesn’t exist to support a “White Sox” are cheap narrative.

[JTB]

8 hours ago, hi8is said:

I thought he was going to be our next second baseman.

Can’t both be true?

[hi8is]

21 minutes ago, JTB said:

Can’t both be true?

#MaximizingValue

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

All those guys have much better track records of health and/or performance than Carlos.  Like this dude got non-tendered last offseason and came back to the Sox for $3M because that’s all the market would bear.  I get how awesome he was last year, but if you QO him he was almost certain to accept it.  If you don’t like the medical outlook of his shoulder and would rather investment that $18.4M into another pitcher then I don’t get why there is so much outrage over this.  Again, we need to wait and see everything unfolds first.  If they don’t replace him with a quality pitcher then I’ll be right there with you in assuming this was cheapness related.

Syndergaard has thrown 2 innings since 2019.

Eduardo Rodriguez missed all of 2020 and then had a 4.74 ERA last year.

[Chicago White Sox]

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Syndergaard has thrown 2 innings since 2019.

Eduardo Rodriguez missed all of 2020 and then had a 4.74 ERA last year.

Syndergaard had TJS like a sizable portion of major league pitchers.  Before that he had four seasons where he made 25+ starts including three with 30+.  He’s accumulated 18.7 fWAR over 120 starts with a 2.93 FIP.

Eduardo Rodriguez missed the 2020 season due myocarditis / COVID.  Before that he had six straight seasons with 25+ starts including two with 30+ (which just so happen to be his last two).  He’s accumulated 14.6 fWAR over 153 starts with a 3.83 FIP.

Carlos has missed time for a multitude of reasons, including elbow, bicep, and shoulder ailments.  He has four seasons with 24+ starts but none with 30+.  He’s accumulated 11.9 fWAR over 116 starts (~41% coming from this past season) with a 3.94 FIP.

So again, one has performed significantly better than Rodon over the course of his career, while the other has a much better track record of health unless you want to punish him for a random issue resulting from a bizarre global pandemic.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Syndergaard had TJS like a sizable portion of major league pitchers.  Before that he had four seasons where he made 25+ starts including three with 30+.  He’s accumulated 18.7 fWAR over 120 starts with a 2.93 FIP.

Eduardo Rodriguez missed the 2020 season due myocarditis / COVID.  Before that he had six straight seasons with 25+ starts including two with 30+ (which just so happen to be his last two).  He’s accumulated 14.6 fWAR over 153 starts with a 3.83 FIP.

Carlos has missed time for a multitude of reasons, including elbow, bicep, and shoulder ailments.  He has four seasons with 24+ starts but none with 30+.  He’s accumulated 11.9 fWAR over 116 starts (~41% coming from this past season) with a 3.94 FIP.

So again, one has performed significantly better than Rodon over the course of his career, while the other has a much better track record of health unless you want to punish him for a random issue resulting from a bizarre global pandemic.

Eduardo Rodriguez has made 25+ starts once in his entire career before this year. Thrown 138+ innings in a season twice. 

Syndergaard missed 2 full seasons, he had much more problems with his arm than just suffering from basic TJ surgery. Since 2017 he's basically missed more time than he's pitched. 

I'm arguing id give them all QO's. The difference between Carlos and those two is he was very good last year. They ALL have risks with injury and inconsistency.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Jerksticks]

9 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Eduardo Rodriguez has made 25+ starts once in his entire career before this year. Thrown 138+ innings in a season twice. 

Syndergaard missed 2 full seasons, he had much more problems with his arm than just suffering from basic TJ surgery. Since 2017 he's basically missed more time than he's pitched. 

I'm arguing id give them all QO's. The difference between Carlos and those two is he was very good last year. They ALL have risks with injury and inconsistency.

But it seems like they didn’t want him to say yes to the QO so they didn’t make it.  What am I missing here?

 

 

[caulfield12]

45 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

But it seems like they didn’t want him to say yes to the QO so they didn’t make it.  What am I missing here?

 

 

They already had a "handshake" deal to offer (but not accept) in order to get the pick back?

[GreenSox]

3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I think it’s abundantly clear after Hahn’s interview today that the Sox simply prefer other starters (with health / durability being a major consideration) and view this offseason as an opportunity to grab one of them on a semi reasonable multi-year deal given how deep this free agent class is.

Maybe so.   Same with Kimbrel -  maybe Hahn's got something up his sleeve that explains that 16 mill.
But all this would require Hahn being proactive, having an effective plan, and being able to execute that plan.
Based on the last decade of Hahn, I doubt it.  But  we'll find out one way or the other.

Edited November 9, 2021 by GreenSox

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Eduardo Rodriguez has made 25+ starts once in his entire career before this year. Thrown 138+ innings in a season twice. 

Syndergaard missed 2 full seasons, he had much more problems with his arm than just suffering from basic TJ surgery. Since 2017 he's basically missed more time than he's pitched. 

I'm arguing id give them all QO's. The difference between Carlos and those two is he was very good last year. They ALL have risks with injury and inconsistency.

I’m including minor league starts as well for all three guys.  Rodriguez has consistently been healthy and trying to use a COVID related illness to say otherwise is absurd.  As for Thor, he missed the 2017 season with a torn lat.  The only other major period of missed time was due to TJS.  His health issues are not nearly as concerning as Rodon’s long-term and he’s been the far more effective pitcher over the course of his career.  If you suddenly want to base all your go-forward projections for Carlos based on his 2021 season, but I’m going to look at the guy with historical command issues and wonder if he can maintain a 2.44 BB/9 and 0.88 HR/9.  If he his shoulder issues persist and his command slips a little, he will quickly become a much different pitcher.  I just think it’s a little naive to assume he will automatically come close to replicating his 2021 numbers next year.

[Tony]

Just now, GreenSox said:

Maybe so.   Same with Kimbrel -  maybe Hahn's got something up his sleeve that explains that 16 mill.
But all this would require Hahn being proactive, having a plan, and being able to execute that plan.
Based on the last decade of Hahn, I doubt it.  But  we'll find out one way or the other.

I mean, Rick has had a bumpy few years, but have you watched any Sox baseball the last few years? 

MLB has the Sox No. 2 in the Power Rankings at the moment. Does that mean anything? Not really....but to act like things have just been a disaster is straight embarrassing from you. 

[Chicago White Sox]

2 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

Maybe so.   Same with Kimbrel -  maybe Hahn's got something up his sleeve that explains that 16 mill.
But all this would require Hahn being proactive, having an effective plan, and being able to execute that plan.
Based on the last decade of Hahn, I doubt it.  But  we'll find out one way or the other.

Hahn literally acquired a Cy Young finalist for Dane Dunning last offseason after trying at the previous deadline and then was able to extend him at a reasonable cost.  He also went out and get Liam Hendriks who was their top free agent target, not to mention Grandal the offseason before and what should have been Wheeler if not for his wife.  Not all of his moves have worked, but I think it’s a bit disingenuous to say he hasn’t had a plan.

[Tony]

5 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Hahn literally acquired a Cy Young finalist for Dane Dunning last offseason after trying at the previous deadline and then was able to extend him at a reasonable cost.  He also went out and get Liam Hendriks who was their top free agent target, not to mention Grandal the offseason before and what should have been Wheeler if not for his wife.  Not all of his moves have worked, but I think it’s a bit disingenuous to say he hasn’t had a plan.

He’s gotten them to back to back playoffs for the first time in franchise history and they are the absolute favorite in 2022 in the AL Central…I mean come on, lol

[Chicago White Sox]

1 minute ago, Tony said:

He’s gotten them to back to back playoffs for the first time in franchise history and they are the absolute favorite in 2022 in the AL Central…I mean come on, lol

There is plenty to rip Hahn for, but I just hate the notion he’s some bumbling idiot without a plan.  He’s done enough right to get us this far, the only question now is can he make the appropriate finishing moves to push over the top.

[maloney.adam]

59 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

Maybe so.   Same with Kimbrel -  maybe Hahn's got something up his sleeve that explains that 16 mill.
But all this would require Hahn being proactive, having an effective plan, and being able to execute that plan.
Based on the last decade of Hahn, I doubt it.  But  we'll find out one way or the other.

Huh? I don’t know what you have been watching the last several years. Lol

[caulfield12]

The real debate isn't over the White Sox being a playoff team (which wouldn't have been possible without the Big 3 trades) in the AL Central, it's the really tough finishing or over-the-top moves to get this team to the next level...at least to the ALCS.

Anyone who watched this team the second half, post-season or looking at their present roster compared to August 15th (especially where Rodon and Lynn were both consensus Top 5 AL Cy Young candidates still)...#5-8 seems a lot more realistic than #2, until they at least have addressed 2-3 of their five obvious issues.

 

With 2-3 of those addressed, THEN you can start talking about #2-4 in MLB, but ONLY then IMO.

RF

2B

Back end of rotation

Replacement/s for Kopech/Tepera/Kimbrel

Back-up catcher

Edited November 9, 2021 by caulfield12

[South Side Hit Men]

MLB Trade Rumors predicted the likely AAV and contract terms for their Top 50 Free Agents.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

They predicted a one year $25M contract for Carlos Rodon, with Houston, Boston and the Angels as the predicted destinations by the three writers.

Of the 150 selections (3 writers predicted the destination for the Top 50 players), the Sox had 3 of the 150 selections:

• #32 Michael Conforto (Steve Adams) 1 Year / $20M
• #35 Eduardo Escobar (Steve Adams) 2 Years / $20M Total
• #43 Jonathan Villar (Anthony Franco) 2 Years / $14M Total

Other Notables: 

• #6 Marcus Semien 6 Years / $138M
• #7 Robbie Ray 5 Years / $130M
• #15 Kyle Schwarber 4 Years / $70M
• #16 Chris Taylor 4 Years / $64M
• #45 Ryan Tepera 2 Years / $12M
• #49 Yan Gomes 2 Years / $10M

[southsider2k5]

11 hours ago, GreenSox said:

Maybe so.   Same with Kimbrel -  maybe Hahn's got something up his sleeve that explains that 16 mill.
But all this would require Hahn being proactive, having an effective plan, and being able to execute that plan.
Based on the last decade of Hahn, I doubt it.  But  we'll find out one way or the other.

So the same guy who managed a sell off, tear down rebuild going from 99 losses, to back to back playoff appearances, can't plan.  Honestly it would have been nice if Hahn had been able to finish his plan with his own manager instead of having a decades old "mistake" thrust upon him.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

8 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

MLB Trade Rumors predicted the likely AAV and contract terms for their Top 50 Free Agents.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

They predicted a one year $25M contract for Carlos Rodon, with Houston, Boston and the Angels as the predicted destinations by the three writers.

Of the 150 selections (3 writers predicted the destination for the Top 50 players), the Sox had 3 of the 150 selections:

• #32 Michael Conforto (Steve Adams) 1 Year / $20M
• #35 Eduardo Escobar (Steve Adams) 2 Years / $20M Total
• #43 Jonathan Villar (Anthony Franco) 2 Years / $14M Total

Other Notables: 

• #6 Marcus Semien 6 Years / $138M
• #7 Robbie Ray 5 Years / $130M
• #15 Kyle Schwarber 4 Years / $70M
• #16 Chris Taylor 4 Years / $64M
• #45 Ryan Tepera 2 Years / $12M
• #49 Yan Gomes 2 Years / $10M

I'd hate to be the team that gives Ray that contract.

[Eminor3rd]

16 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

You are drawing a connection that doesn’t exist to support a “White Sox” are cheap narrative.

If you're going to quote a post, please don't ignore the entire conversation before it. The whole discussion has been predicated on the conditional that Rodon isn't injured. 

[South Side Hit Men]

3 hours ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

I'd hate to be the team that gives Ray that contract.

Yes, I posted earlier I liked Ray at 3-4 years and a $17M AAV, and their estimate is 1-2 years longer and $9M more per year.

With the current hyperinflation environment, and the large and growing amount of ancillary revenue owners have been shielding over the years, I can see agents pushing for a more equitable AAV this off-season.