Where could Kimbrel be traded, and for what?

[Jack Parkman]

34 minutes ago, Texsox said:

For the old-timers - bigger mistake 

Billy Koch or Kimbrel? 

 

 

 

Kimbrel because IIRC they got Cotts back in the deal for Foulke. 

[oldsox]

Koch trade was stupid on its own merits.  We had Foulke, Foulke wanted a raise, Sox said no, Sox traded Foulke for Koch, Koch couldn't get anyone out and was untradable, so Sox gave him the money Foulke wanted in the first place, and Foulke went to a WS.  That is the White Sox way.

And yet, the Kimbrel trade is far worse.

[Jack Parkman]

On 12/24/2021 at 1:55 PM, Balta1701 said:

Weird timing on running this? Wonder what is behind that?

Anyway, they say they want pitching, and clearly the White Sox can’t afford to move Cease or Kopech, so Crochet as a key piece? Maybe with one of the top pieces from the system added since this guy has so much control?

I've heard that McNeil is a Swisher/Eaton level prick. No thanks to that. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by Jack Parkman

[chitownsportsfan]

pisses me off the sox traded a player I'm not a huge fan off but that is objectively a really good asset (Madrigal) for this [homophobic pejorative].

Edited March 24, 2022 by chitownsportsfan

[maxjusttyped]

44 minutes ago, Texsox said:

For the old-timers - bigger mistake 

Billy Koch or Kimbrel? 

 

 

 

They tanked an entire season to draft Madrigal with the 4th pick. He should have been a foundational member of the team for the next 5 years. Even if Kimbrel was exactly what they were hoping for, the trade was a ridiculous overpay and an obvious in the moment mistake. The 2 aren't remotely comparable for me, personally.

[maxjusttyped]

8 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I've heard that McNeil is a Swisher/Eaton level prick. No thanks to that. 

I'm sure there are guys on the team now who also fall into that category. So far as I know, he doesn't have a history of off the field issues that make him an objectively bad guy or anything. If he's a dick or difficult to be around, who cares. He would make the team better and fill a massive need.

Not that I could see the Mets going for a trade like that right now anyways.

[caulfield12]

13 minutes ago, oldsox said:

Koch trade was stupid on its own merits.  We had Foulke, Foulke wanted a raise, Sox said no, Sox traded Foulke for Koch, Koch couldn't get anyone out and was untradable, so Sox gave him the money Foulke wanted in the first place, and Foulke went to a WS.  That is the White Sox way.

And yet, the Kimbrel trade is far worse.

To get the so-called fireballer instead of the finesse guy.

I remember Zobrist in particular torching Koch, or was it Carl Crawford?  Someone on the Rays hit a game winning homer in the Trop Dome.

[caulfield12]

4 minutes ago, maxjusttyped said:

They tanked an entire season to draft Madrigal with the 4th pick. He should have been a foundational member of the team for the next 5 years. Even if Kimbrel was exactly what they were hoping for, the trade was a ridiculous overpay and an obvious in the moment mistake. The 2 aren't remotely comparable for me, personally.

And another tanking season to let Rodon at #3 go without a QO/compensation pick.

[Jack Parkman]

I think after this season, it might be worth considering trading Giolito/Lynn(assuming he stays good)/Moncada or Anderson and then spending their money in FA while simultaneously re-stocking the farm. That's what well run teams would do. They might take a small step back talent wise, but would otherwise still be good. 

They're probably going to lose in the ALDS/WC round anyway so what's the difference? That would be a lot of money coming off the books to spend in FA. 

Then again Jerry might just pocket the savings and be ok with a 2nd place team. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by Jack Parkman

[Jack Parkman]

6 minutes ago, maxjusttyped said:

They tanked an entire season to draft Madrigal with the 4th pick. He should have been a foundational member of the team for the next 5 years. Even if Kimbrel was exactly what they were hoping for, the trade was a ridiculous overpay and an obvious in the moment mistake. The 2 aren't remotely comparable for me, personally.

They should have never drafted Madrigal 4th overall, but I digress. 

[Tnetennba]

6 minutes ago, maxjusttyped said:

They tanked an entire season to draft Madrigal with the 4th pick. He should have been a foundational member of the team for the next 5 years. Even if Kimbrel was exactly what they were hoping for, the trade was a ridiculous overpay and an obvious in the moment mistake. The 2 aren't remotely comparable for me, personally.

The trade, the results, then doubling down on it make it far worse.  Koch was bad but I don’t remember a shit ton of stupid surrounding his acquisition and tenure. 

[Tnetennba]

2 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I think after this season, it might be worth considering trading Giolito/Lynn(assuming he stays good)/Moncada or Anderson and then spending their money in FA while simultaneously re-stocking the farm. That's what well run teams would do. They might take a small step back talent wise, but would otherwise still be good. 

Recipe for disaster with this FO. 

[Jack Parkman]

2 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

Recipe for disaster with this FO. 

I completely agree but it seems to me the window never really opened more than a crack, but that is 100% by choice. Doing that might be a way to actually open one. Hahn has proven to be better as a seller than a buyer, so that's one thing he has going for him. I really don't want to lose Giolito, who I think is about to have a big year, for nothing. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by Jack Parkman

[Tnetennba]

Just now, Jack Parkman said:

I completely agree but it seems to me the window never really opened more than a crack. That might be a way to actually open one. 

Gio probably gets you the most, but on a short deal it limits the return.  Moncada, as much as I love him, better bounce back or no one takes his contract.  Lynn won’t get you a haul either.  And no way they trade away the face of the franchise in TA.  

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I completely agree but it seems to me the window never really opened more than a crack, but that is 100% by choice. Doing that might be a way to actually open one. Hahn has proven to be better as a seller than a buyer, so that's one thing he has going for him. I really don't want to lose Giolito, who I think is about to have a big year, for nothing. 

To be a great organization, you need to hit in FA around 60% of the time.

Our rate is LUCKY to be 30%, if you go through all the Hahn FA contracts starting all the way back with Jeff Keppinger.

It might even be as low as 20-25%.

If they were to take that approach, they simply can't do it with Hahn or KW yet again.

They need a completely fresh perspective from outside the organization.   We saw what happened when Hahn tried to compete on the fly from 2013-2016, the bad trades and bad signings, despite "winning" a couple of off-seasons according to the prognosticators and pundits.

 

You need to win with a younger or youngish/cost-controlled core...before they get too expensive or hit free agency.

Buying at the top of the market, especially competing with the likes of Cohen and dealing with the Scott Borases of the world of the world is a recipe for 3rd-5th place finishes in even the AL Central.

The only players with massive trade value right now are Luis Robert, Tim Anderson, Giolito and Cease...I guess Vaughn would probably be 5th on any list.   Some would argue Moncada, but it would have to be a large market team that could afford his future $23.8 and $25 million salaries.   Jimenez is limited by his injury history and lack of a competent defensive position.

But simply trading all those veteran deals like Hendriks, Lynn, Grandal, etc., is barely going to get you much more than salary relief.   It's certainly not going to provide a young core of future stars like Sale/Eaton/Quintana provided back in 2016 and 2017.

[Jack Parkman]

13 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

To be a great organization, you need to hit in FA around 60% of the time.

Our rate is LUCKY to be 30%, if you go through all the Hahn FA contracts starting all the way back with Jeff Keppinger.

It might even be as low as 20-25%.

If they were to take that approach, they simply can't do it with Hahn or KW yet again.

They need a completely fresh perspective from outside the organization.   We saw what happened when Hahn tried to compete on the fly from 2013-2016, the bad trades and bad signings, despite "winning" a couple of off-seasons according to the prognosticators and pundits.

 

You need to win with a younger or youngish/cost-controlled core...before they get too expensive or hit free agency.

Buying at the top of the market, especially competing with the likes of Cohen and dealing with the Scott Borases of the world of the world is a recipe for 3rd-5th place finishes in even the AL Central.

The only players with massive trade value right now are Luis Robert, Tim Anderson, Giolito and Cease...I guess Vaughn would probably be 5th on any list.   Some would argue Moncada, but it would have to be a large market team that could afford his future $23.8 and $25 million salaries.   Jimenez is limited by his injury history and lack of a competent defensive position.

But simply trading all those veteran deals like Hendriks, Lynn, Grandal, etc., is barely going to get you much more than salary relief.   It's certainly not going to provide a young core of future stars like Sale/Eaton/Quintana provided back in 2016 and 2017.

If Giolito has as good of a year as I think he will, I think they have to consider trading him this winter, and signing a pitcher to replace him. Losing him for nothing would be terrible, and such a trade would be much more palatable to Sox fans if Lynn stays good, Kopech emerges and Cease keeps getting better. 

[Balta1701]

49 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I've heard that McNeil is a Swisher/Eaton level prick. No thanks to that. 

Ah the ol’ reply to a 3 month old post on a rumor that obviously didn’t happen?

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

If Giolito has as good of a year as I think he will, I think they have to consider trading him this winter, and signing a pitcher to replace him. Losing him for nothing would be terrible, and such a trade would be much more palatable to Sox fans if Lynn stays good, Kopech emerges and Cease keeps getting better. 

The odds of Lynn at his age repeating a 2.7ish ERA season are quite low, just like we saw with Keuchel last season.

To replace Giolito's value, you're going to have to spend the equivalent of a Wheeler contract in FA to replace him...and the FA market for next season is pretty abysmal.

Not to mention the fact that adding on even more salary for a "star" FA pitcher is going to leave the payroll tied up for the next 3-5 seasons, meaning you HAVE to be right.

 

The Cubs were in a similar position when they added Darvish and Chatwood to get them over the top.  That completely backfired, although Darvish eventually recovered (along with Kimbrel) and returned trade value, those years with them were largely wasted/"lost" ones.

 

When's the last time that a team in the heart of their competitive window (with a Top 5 MLB payroll, not a small market club) traded one of their best pitchers one year before FA?????   The Rays were trying to do it with Glasnow, but that's because he is expected to miss all or most of 2022 and a team acquiring him will try to do the same as the Padres with Garrett Richards where he rehabbed with them for most of one year...and bet on their being some type of synergy or chemistry.

Edited March 24, 2022 by caulfield12

[Jack Parkman]

27 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

The odds of Lynn at his age repeating a 2.7ish ERA season are quite low, just like we saw with Keuchel last season.

To replace Giolito's value, you're going to have to spend the equivalent of a Wheeler contract in FA to replace him...and the FA market for next season is pretty abysmal.

Not to mention the fact that adding on even more salary for a "star" FA pitcher is going to leave the payroll tied up for the next 3-5 seasons, meaning you HAVE to be right.

 

The Cubs were in a similar position when they added Darvish and Chatwood to get them over the top.  That completely backfired, although Darvish eventually recovered (along with Kimbrel) and returned trade value, those years with them were largely wasted/"lost" ones.

 

When's the last time that a team in the heart of their competitive window (with a Top 5 MLB payroll, not a small market club) traded one of their best pitchers one year before FA?????   The Rays were trying to do it with Glasnow, but that's because he is expected to miss all or most of 2022 and a team acquiring him will try to do the same as the Padres with Garrett Richards where he rehabbed with them for most of one year...and bet on their being some type of synergy or chemistry.

They don't necessarily have to add a star quality pitcher if Cease/Kopech are TOR quality. 

[Two-Gun Pete]

1 hour ago, maxjusttyped said:

They tanked an entire season to draft Madrigal with the 4th pick. He should have been a foundational member of the team for the next 5 years. Even if Kimbrel was exactly what they were hoping for, the trade was a ridiculous overpay and an obvious in the moment mistake. The 2 aren't remotely comparable for me, personally.

This.

Before the stupid Kimbrel trade, I couldn't believe that this FO could have been that stupid to trade for a piece they didn't need.

When that trade went down, I couldn't believe they traded from the MLB roster to get him. Like or hate Madrigal, even if he's just a 2-ish fWAR token, he comes with a league minimum salary. Harrison will be lucky to put up 2-ish fWAR, while consuming $5.5MM in CBT space. More likely, geezimg geezer Harrison will be DFA, just like Eaton or Rollins before him; his salary will linger on the books like an incurable STD.

And those morons never fucking learn anyfuckingthing.

Overpaying for garbage, plus overallocation into RPs is why we can't have nice things. Like Semien or Conforto or Suzuki. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[caulfield12]

16 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

They don't necessarily have to add a star quality pitcher if Cease/Kopech are TOR quality. 

Well, that's essentially the bet that Hahn is making right now with all of his moves...especially for 2024 and beyond.

Not sure what the Vegas odds are.  Cease was top 10-15 fWAR, but still can't be trusted to start a big playoff game.   The variability on Kopech possible/potential results is obviously all over the map, from out of baseball entirely to the 2024/25 Cy Young winner.

Edited March 24, 2022 by caulfield12

[reiks12]

2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

And another tanking season to let Rodon at #3 go without a QO/compensation pick.

Take solace in the fact that this organization doesnt know how to draft or develop players so that comp pick wouldnt have mattered anyways.

[reiks12]

I did some calming yoga before bed to help with my lack of sleeping lately and now i undid all that relaxing by reading the above Madrigal post. Why the fuck did Hahn trade him away for Kimbrel what the fuck was he thinking?! I hope Madrigal lights it up this year and beyond. God i hate this front office with a passion

[caulfield12]

7 minutes ago, reiks12 said:

I did some calming yoga before bed to help with my lack of sleeping lately and now i undid all that relaxing by reading the above Madrigal post. Why the fuck did Hahn trade him away for Kimbrel what the fuck was he thinking?! I hope Madrigal lights it up this year and beyond. God i hate this front office with a passion

You and Ron883 need to join forces, lol.

 

[poppysox]

8 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

If Giolito has as good of a year as I think he will, I think they have to consider trading him this winter, and signing a pitcher to replace him. Losing him for nothing would be terrible, and such a trade would be much more palatable to Sox fans if Lynn stays good, Kopech emerges and Cease keeps getting better. 

I agree with this point, Jack.  We should never be left holding nothing with a player that can't be extended.  The Bryant situation is a failure of Cubs FO to face the fact he wouldn't be extended.