2022 Offseason Plan Thread

[Tnetennba]

26 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

So just to jinx to any hopes of a CBA being agreed to in the next 24 hours, below is a new offseason plan that pushes our payroll to the absolute limits of the new CBT.  While I'd rather not trade Andrew Vaughn, this plan assumes he's moved in a package for Ketel Marte with the Sox then rolling with a Sheets / Burger platoon at DH.

How happy / mad would you be with this offseason?  To me, this firmly places the Sox as the best team in baseball heading into Opening Day, but feel free to rip away if you disagree!

 

I don’t know enough about Marte honestly.  I’d hate to lose AV but on paper it looks like a home run. 

[wegner]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

So just to jinx to any hopes of a CBA being agreed to in the next 24 hours, below is a new offseason plan that pushes our payroll to the absolute limits of the new CBT.  While I'd rather not trade Andrew Vaughn, this plan assumes he's moved in a package for Ketel Marte with the Sox then rolling with a Sheets / Burger platoon at DH.

How happy / mad would you be with this offseason?  To me, this firmly places the Sox as the best team in baseball heading into Opening Day, but feel free to rip away if you disagree!

 

Did I see you post elsewhere that you think our window is 2022 to 2024?

I'd hate to give up on AV....I'd also be very excited about that roster above.

Edited March 9, 2022 by wegner

[Chicago White Sox]

2 minutes ago, wegner said:

Did I see you post elsewhere that you think our window is 2022 to 2024?

I'd hate to give up on AV....I'd also be very excited about that roster above.

Yes, I think our window is realistically 2022 to 2024.  Doesn’t mean we have to completely blow everything up in 2025, but there will need to be some serious retooling given how expensive the core youngsters will be by then and the fact we could lose Abreu, Giolito, Grandal, Anderson, Lynn, & Hendriks by then.

[maxjusttyped]

.

Edited March 9, 2022 by maxjusttyped
oops wrong thread

[wegner]

4 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Yes, I think our window is realistically 2022 to 2024.  Doesn’t mean we have to completely blow everything up in 2025, but there will need to be some serious retooling given how expensive the core youngsters will be by then and the fact we could lose Abreu, Giolito, Grandal, Anderson, Lynn, & Hendriks by then.

Hopefully going younger in the draft will help them retool when the time comes.....or they go get some more Cubans ready for the big show.

[Chicago White Sox]

Just now, wegner said:

Hopefully going younger in the draft will help them retool when the time comes.....or they go get some more Cubans ready for the big show.

Yeah, we got to hope of these youngsters pan out and keep the window going.  At least there is quite a bit of talent in Low & High A that can hopefully help three years from now.

[wegner]

1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Yeah, we got to hope of these youngsters pan out and keep the window going.  At least there is quite a bit of talent in Low & High A that can hopefully help three years from now.

I'm excited to see who develops....it should be an interesting next couple of years seeing who steps up on the farm and I agree there's a good amount of intriguing talent at the lower levels.

[Two-Gun Pete]

16 hours ago, EloyJenkins said:

This takes the burn off the Kimbrel trade quite a bit. While that didn't work out, the Cubs return looks pretty bleak if Madrigal doesn't start showing some power potential. 

Eh, the SOX traded 2 cheap, controllable pieces, and paid ~$8MM last year (+ whatever they'll have to pay to trade him away) for a closer that they didn't need. IOW, for a piece that wasn't a top need, and that wouldn't have made the 2021 SOX better than Houston, LAD, or SF. Meanwhile, it reduced the 2022 team's war chest for trades, while restricting the 2022 team's financial flexibility.

Moreover, it revealed that this FO continues to overvalue and over-allocate resources into the BP. That this FO made this deal, this far into their tenures suggests that they haven't learned anything.

In sum, it still stings that they made this deal, when it made zero baseball or business sense. It stings MORE when you consider that they easily should have known better by now.

 

Whether or not Heuer and/or Madrigal become great is entirely immaterial. I think most of us would take an injured Heuer and a punching Judy Madrigal on this roster over Kimbrel and his obese salary right now.

[GreenSox]

There's no way this org. should rebuild after 2024.  Nor should it have to.

[poppysox]

3 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Eh, the SOX traded 2 cheap, controllable pieces, and paid ~$8MM last year (+ whatever they'll have to pay to trade him away) for a closer that they didn't need. IOW, for a piece that wasn't a top need, and that wouldn't have made the 2021 SOX better than Houston, LAD, or SF. Meanwhile, it reduced the 2022 team's war chest for trades, while restricting the 2022 team's financial flexibility.

Moreover, it revealed that this FO continues to overvalue and over-allocate resources into the BP. That this FO made this deal, this far into their tenures suggests that they haven't learned anything.

In sum, it still stings that they made this deal, when it made zero baseball or business sense. It stings MORE when you consider that they easily should have known better by now.

 

Whether or not Heuer and/or Madrigal become great is entirely immaterial. I think most of us would take an injured Heuer and a punching Judy Madrigal on this roster over Kimbrel and his obese salary right now.

I still believe that Hahn thinks Kimbrel has tradeable value.  He could have paid the small dollar amount to release him if his value was nothing that many board members feel is the case.  This idea of paying in order to get someone to take him just doesn't make any sense.  

[tray]

9 hours ago, wegner said:

Hopefully going younger in the draft will help them retool when the time comes.....or they go get some more Cubans ready for the big show.

 

Oscar Colas finished 1-for-3 during Tuesday afternoon’s intrasquad contest, tripling in his first at-bat.

Barkett views Colás as possessing instant leadership qualities.

“The other players from Cuba, it seems like, they kind of go towards him a little bit in a way,” Barkett said. “He’s got this leadership about himself, and they look up to him.”When Colás is delivering his A swing on the field? Barkett described it in part as, “Oh, wow. This guy can do some things.”Added Barkett: “He’s got some explosive power. Some big-time, upper-deck light-tower power. He can do it to all fields. His body -- he’s a fast mover, boom. And then when he stays on the ball, he doesn’t just hit the ball, he compresses it.“That difference with that biomechanics and launch angles, it basically all means we want the body to connect. We compress it, we don’t hit it. He’s able to do that when it all connects.”

I want to see this guy play.

Other prospects - Sox may have a tremendous future left side of the infield with Colson Montgomery and Wes Kath. These guys may not take as long as expected  to transition from HS ball to the pros.

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by tray

[Two-Gun Pete]

13 minutes ago, poppysox said:

I still believe that Hahn thinks Kimbrel has tradeable value.  He could have paid the small dollar amount to release him if his value was nothing that many board members feel is the case.  This idea of paying in order to get someone to take him just doesn't make any sense.  

Maybe? Or maybe not. 

But really, who gives a shit? Without Kimbrel's $16MM on the payroll, they would have had the CBT space to sign Conforto already. Or add the SP that this team needs.

And maybe, with Madrigal in the roster, we wouldn't be arguing over who sucks less at 2B, Villar or Miller.

Actions have consequences. Stupid actions also have consequences, especially if your org has a budget.

[Jerksticks]

1 hour ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Eh, the SOX traded 2 cheap, controllable pieces, and paid ~$8MM last year (+ whatever they'll have to pay to trade him away) for a closer that they didn't need. IOW, for a piece that wasn't a top need, and that wouldn't have made the 2021 SOX better than Houston, LAD, or SF. Meanwhile, it reduced the 2022 team's war chest for trades, while restricting the 2022 team's financial flexibility.

Moreover, it revealed that this FO continues to overvalue and over-allocate resources into the BP. That this FO made this deal, this far into their tenures suggests that they haven't learned anything.

In sum, it still stings that they made this deal, when it made zero baseball or business sense. It stings MORE when you consider that they easily should have known better by now.

 

Whether or not Heuer and/or Madrigal become great is entirely immaterial. I think most of us would take an injured Heuer and a punching Judy Madrigal on this roster over Kimbrel and his obese salary right now.

I think it suggests they thought Kimbrel would be nails in 2021 and then they could trade him for something comparable to Madrigal/Heuer before 2022 and replenish.  
 

Sounds really smart if you ask me. 

[Balta1701]

25 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

I think it suggests they thought Kimbrel would be nails in 2021 and then they could trade him for something comparable to Madrigal/Heuer before 2022 and replenish.  
 

Sounds really smart if you ask me. 

Except for the part where they didn’t read any of his stats beyond his ERA. And the part where he was awful and they still picked up an option making him the second highest paid reliever in there league this year.

[iWiN4PreP]

12 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

So just to jinx to any hopes of a CBA being agreed to in the next 24 hours, below is a new offseason plan that pushes our payroll to the absolute limits of the new CBT.  While I'd rather not trade Andrew Vaughn, this plan assumes he's moved in a package for Ketel Marte with the Sox then rolling with a Sheets / Burger platoon at DH.

How happy / mad would you be with this offseason?  To me, this firmly places the Sox as the best team in baseball heading into Opening Day, but feel free to rip away if you disagree!

 

Look - That's an AMAZING offseason but there's a few problems here:

 

1) That's not enough for an MVP caliber player like Ketel Marte. You are going to have to add.

2) As cool as Clayton Kershaw would be he a) would not come to the white sox and b) is highly injury prone. I would suggest looking at Rodon (also injury prone, but an obvious white sox dude and had an insanely good year last year obviously, and younger).

3) Tepera is something I'm ALL about too. If we're going to trade Kimbrel, it'd be lovely getting Tepera back. Great move with Graveman.

4) Conforto would be DOPE! Good deal there. Personally, I'd like Bryant, but Confo is a better balance.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Eh, the SOX traded 2 cheap, controllable pieces, and paid ~$8MM last year (+ whatever they'll have to pay to trade him away) for a closer that they didn't need. IOW, for a piece that wasn't a top need, and that wouldn't have made the 2021 SOX better than Houston, LAD, or SF. Meanwhile, it reduced the 2022 team's war chest for trades, while restricting the 2022 team's financial flexibility.

Moreover, it revealed that this FO continues to overvalue and over-allocate resources into the BP. That this FO made this deal, this far into their tenures suggests that they haven't learned anything.

In sum, it still stings that they made this deal, when it made zero baseball or business sense. It stings MORE when you consider that they easily should have known better by now.

 

Whether or not Heuer and/or Madrigal become great is entirely immaterial. I think most of us would take an injured Heuer and a punching Judy Madrigal on this roster over Kimbrel and his obese salary right now.

If you think the Sox bullpen didn't have major problems at the trade deadline, we didn't watch the same July of baseball.

[bear_brian]

Am still dreaming of acquiring either Jeff McNeil from the Mets or Adam Frazier from San Diego for Kimbrel, signing Conforto and Tepera, then trading prospects (Burger, Lambert) to Oakland for Manaea. I believe Arizona will only trade Marte if the deal includes pitching, which I am not certain we can address to their liking.

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, bear_brian said:

Am still dreaming of acquiring either Jeff McNeil from the Mets or Adam Frazier from San Diego for Kimbrel, signing Conforto and Tepera, then trading prospects (Burger, Lambert) to Oakland for Manaea. I believe Arizona will only trade Marte if the deal includes pitching, which I am not certain we can address to their liking.

I’m pretty sure San Diego already traded Adam Frazier to Seattle.

[Two-Gun Pete]

21 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

If you think the Sox bullpen didn't have major problems at the trade deadline, we didn't watch the same July of baseball.

Ok. Looking at Fangraphs, the 2021 White Sox relievers pitched the fewest IP in MLB by 7/30/2021.

Despite that, they had produced the 5th most fWAR in MLB. They were 10th in FIP by the time the Kimbrel trade was executed.

By contrast, CWS 2B produced the 20th most fWAR by 7/30/21. CWS RFers produced the 17th most fWAR.

So, in looking at the numbers, there was no need for a closer, full stop.

[Two-Gun Pete]

1 hour ago, Jerksticks said:

I think it suggests they thought Kimbrel would be nails in 2021 and then they could trade him for something comparable to Madrigal/Heuer before 2022 and replenish.  
 

Sounds really smart if you ask me. 

I'll disagree. The numbers showed that there was no need for a closer. Or if you like, it certainly wasn't among the top ~3 or so needs.

Now, if this org had had LAD's deep MiLB system, and/or LAD's deep pockets, sure: they could afford to take a gamble on Kimbrel. But this org has neither of those things.

It predictably turned out as poorly as it did. And here we are, waiting for the CBA to be finished, so that Kimbrel's tumor of a contract can be removed from the payroll.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[southsider2k5]

Just now, Two-Gun Pete said:

Ok. Looking at Fangraphs, the 2021 White Sox relievers pitched the fewest IP in MLB by 7/30/2021.

Despite that, they had produced the 5th most fWAR in MLB. They were 10th in FIP by the time the Kimbrel trade was executed.

By contrast, CWS 2B produced the 20th most fWAR by 7/30/21. CWS RFers produced the 17th most fWAR.

So, in looking at the numbers, there was no need for a closer, full stop.

Again, we didn't watch the same teams if you watched this in July and thought this is going to win in the playoffs

The set up men were TERRIBLE.

 

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Again, we didn't watch the same teams if you watched this in July and thought this is going to win in the playoffs

The set up men were TERRIBLE.

 

I already did this once a few months ago, but

 

[ChiSoxFanMike]

10 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Ok. Looking at Fangraphs, the 2021 White Sox relievers pitched the fewest IP in MLB by 7/30/2021.

Despite that, they had produced the 5th most fWAR in MLB. They were 10th in FIP by the time the Kimbrel trade was executed.

By contrast, CWS 2B produced the 20th most fWAR by 7/30/21. CWS RFers produced the 17th most fWAR.

So, in looking at the numbers, there was no need for a closer, full stop.

I’m convinced you didn’t watch this team last year. Hendriks and Kopech were the only relievers TLR could trust for a long time before the Kimbrel trade was made. Trading for Kimbrel specifically obviously looks like a bad move in hindsight, but the Sox absolutely needed another reliever of some kind at the deadline. 

[Two-Gun Pete]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

Again, we didn't watch the same teams if you watched this in July and thought this is going to win in the playoffs

The set up men were TERRIBLE.

Couple things:

1. All bullpens are volatile, with peaks and valleys in their performances.

2. That bullpen had shown a better body of work than the collection of AAAA talents and 1B/DHs trying to play OF; this meant that the OF needed more help than the bullpen.

3. No, I didn't think they would win because there were more talented teams than they; this meant it was better to keep the trade powder dry, than to go all-in, George Custer-style.

4. They bought a closer who had never setup, not a setup man. Which means either they didn't do their homework on Kimbrel's fit, or they didn't ask Hendriks if he'd be willing to setup.

 

So no, the numbers showed that a closer wasn't among their top needs, and what they did need, they didn't get.

[southsider2k5]

Just now, Two-Gun Pete said:

Couple things:

1. All bullpens are volatile, with peaks and valleys in their performances.

2. That bullpen had shown a better body of work than the collection of AAAA talents and 1B/DHs trying to play OF; this meant that the OF needed more help than the bullpen.

3. No, I didn't think they would win because there were more talented teams than they; this meant it was better to keep the trade powder dry, than to go all-in, George Custer-style.

4. They bought a closer who had never setup, not a setup man. Which means either they didn't do their homework on Kimbrel's fit, or they didn't ask Hendriks if he'd be willing to setup.

 

So no, the numbers showed that a closer wasn't among their top needs, and what they did need, they didn't get.

The Sox had a bullpen problem and got the top reliever on the market.  It's a damned shame Kimbrel was too soft to do anything but close.  It's also worth pointing out a less shitty manager could have figured out a way of using the guy in other ways to get him back on track.  But not Tony.