Bob Sacamano Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 1 minute ago, ChiSox59 said: Good lord what an awful offseason that would be. Yeah that doesn't help solve the rotation at all. Unless in this scenario, Vaughn is dealt for a front of the rotation arm with like 4+ years of control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 Just now, Bob Sacamano said: Yeah that doesn't help solve the rotation at all. Unless in this scenario, Vaughn is dealt for a front of the rotation arm with like 4+ years of control. I don't understand this. We'd have Giolito, Lynn, Cease, Kopech, Keuchel, Kluber, Lopez. You are all upset that I'm throwing a February-mindset offseason at you in November, but it's really not that far off! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 Just now, bmags said: Schwarber may be best hitter on market, and would be a big cost, so I don't find it that bad. But my update is probably more acceptable to folk. We would have...EASILY....the worst defense in the league. Schwarber makes ZERO sense on this roster. None what so ever. We already have a glut of bad corner OF / 1B / DH types, and we're adding another? It makes no sense. Yes the bat is nice, but as Hawk says, "where he gonna play?". So you sign Schwarber, you now basically have to trade one of Eloy/Vaughn. Its likely Vaughn (who is the best OF defender of the 3, probably) and now you're stuck playing 2 of Eloy/Schwarber/Sheets in the OF nearly everyday. ITs terrible. And you're paying him $20M AAV to boot? Hate hate hate hate hate it. But it what a "White Soxy" move, so I wouldn't put it past them. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 Keep in mind if we sign schwarber we'll get 10 million: ANDERSON ROBERT SCHWARBER ABREU YAZ ELOY MONCADA ESCOBAR GARCIA ZOMG SICK OFFENSE posts And they would be right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 Just now, ChiSox59 said: We would have...EASILY....the worst defense in the league. Schwarber makes ZERO sense on this roster. None what so ever. We already have a glut of bad corner OF / 1B / DH types, and we're adding another? It makes no sense. Yes the bat is nice, but as Hawk says, "where he gonna play?". So you sign Schwarber, you now basically have to trade one of Eloy/Vaughn. Its likely Vaughn (who is the best OF defender of the 3, probably) and now you're stuck playing 2 of Eloy/Schwarber/Sheets in the OF nearly everyday. ITs terrible. And you're paying him $20M AAV to boot? Hate hate hate hate hate it. But it what a "White Soxy" move, so I wouldn't put it past them. Probably closer to reality than signing Scherzer tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 Just now, bmags said: Keep in mind if we sign schwarber we'll get 10 million: ANDERSON ROBERT SCHWARBER ABREU YAZ ELOY MONCADA ESCOBAR GARCIA ZOMG SICK OFFENSE posts And they would be right? Wait how are Escobar and Garcia both in the lineup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 Just now, ChiSox59 said: We would have...EASILY....the worst defense in the league. Schwarber makes ZERO sense on this roster. None what so ever. We already have a glut of bad corner OF / 1B / DH types, and we're adding another? It makes no sense. Yes the bat is nice, but as Hawk says, "where he gonna play?". So you sign Schwarber, you now basically have to trade one of Eloy/Vaughn. Its likely Vaughn (who is the best OF defender of the 3, probably) and now you're stuck playing 2 of Eloy/Schwarber/Sheets in the OF nearly everyday. ITs terrible. And you're paying him $20M AAV to boot? Hate hate hate hate hate it. But it what a "White Soxy" move, so I wouldn't put it past them. Yes, we would not be good on defense. However, the sox have definitely played in those waters before. You don't have to trade Eloy and Vaughn, you actually just keep them, I don't get that idea. Eloy was actually pretty good in LF, and you have Engel too. And also, Vaughn is not a better defender than Eloy, that's crazy. He is likely slightly better than Schwarbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 2 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said: Wait how are Escobar and Garcia both in the lineup? Because I forgot which of my plans I was promoting. Should be Vaughn/Sheets 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalChiSox Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 9 minutes ago, bmags said: I don't know. It isn't a pretty list. But I also think we are undercutting our own talent a lot in this. The cool thing about Schwarber is 2021 schwarber, if you get him, was a one man wrecking crew that essentially solves our LHH issues and groundball issues in one swoop. He's so good that it's like an "eff yo plans" kinda addition. I think including Joc is probably wrong, and maybe swap Escobar in. Okay mentally delete that post. Let's start over. Schwarber ($20M) Escobar ($10M) WE go in with RF of Sheets/Vaughn/Eloy/Engel as our corners for the year. Graveman ($8 M) Kluber? Hamels? Happ? ($10M) That would put us at around $185M for the year with Kimbrell traded for full $16M Plausible. Wasn't Harold suggesting there is legit White Sox interest in Schwarber? If they deal Vaughn for top flight pitching, then they could rotate Eloy and Schwarber at LF/DH and still add Conforto in RF. Ofcourse, the money probably only works if Kimbrel is traded for someone who isn't a large salary commitment. Honestly, I'd rather just get some prospects from Philly, take back no salary and use that extra money to fill holes. Priority 1, 2 AND 3 are LHH savages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 (edited) 4/80 for Schwarber would be awful. I’m not necessarily opposed to signing him for cheaper than that as a DH, but that would have to mean at least one of Eloy/Vaughn is traded for a RF. Don’t think it’s worth getting rid of either of those guys just to accommodate Schwarber. Edited November 24, 2021 by YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 4 minutes ago, bmags said: Yes, we would not be good on defense. However, the sox have definitely played in those waters before. You don't have to trade Eloy and Vaughn, you actually just keep them, I don't get that idea. Eloy was actually pretty good in LF, and you have Engel too. And also, Vaughn is not a better defender than Eloy, that's crazy. He is likely slightly better than Schwarbs. Ahh yes, the old "sox have always been bad at defense, so nothing new" take. Let's improve the defense this offseason, not make it worse. I disagree strongly on the bolded. Eloy is a horrible LF. He is also a danger to himself, to Luis and to the infielders. Vaughn graded out as a significantly better LF than Eloy in 21 (pick the metric, they all say the same) - at a position he hadn't played since little league. Could they both improve? Sure. But I'd 100% prefer Vaughn in LF to Eloy for a multitude of reasons, not the least of which is Eloy is only valuable to this team if he is batting everyday and playing LF puts his availability in constant danger. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 Outs Above Average: Eloy Jimenez: +2 (LF) Vaughn : -3 (LF) FRAA: Eloy Jimenes: -0.2 Andrew Vaughn: -3.8 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 6 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said: Ahh yes, the old "sox have always been bad at defense, so nothing new" take. Let's improve the defense this offseason, not make it worse. I disagree strongly on the bolded. Eloy is a horrible LF. He is also a danger to himself, to Luis and to the infielders. Vaughn graded out as a significantly better LF than Eloy in 21 (pick the metric, they all say the same) - at a position he hadn't played since little league. Could they both improve? Sure. But I'd 100% prefer Vaughn in LF to Eloy for a multitude of reasons, not the least of which is Eloy is only valuable to this team if he is batting everyday and playing LF puts his availability in constant danger. The point is the sox have shown the tendency to structure the team this way, not that I think defense doesn't matter. And even that poor construction no one likes, you are at $185M salary, to which the sox would be thinking "wow thanks jerry, great investment, we are all in" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted November 24, 2021 Author Share Posted November 24, 2021 Unpopular take, but I think Eloy has a higher defensive ceiling than Vaughn, but a much lower floor and is a risk to himself if he doesn’t radically change how he handles plays around the outfield walls and sidelines. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maloney.adam Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 (edited) Schwarber actually would be a good fit for this team and he’s only 28 years old. Same age as Conforto but adds more power to the lineup. Edited November 24, 2021 by maloney.adam 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShoeLessRob Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 We have too many players who are poor defensively and an over abundance of DH/1st types. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalChiSox Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 Just now, maloney.adam said: Schwarber actually fits what we’re looking for. Also, he’s only 28 years old. Same age as Conforto but adds more power to the lineup. We need both ASAP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted November 24, 2021 Author Share Posted November 24, 2021 3 minutes ago, maloney.adam said: Schwarber actually would be a good fit for this team and he’s only 28 years old. Same age as Conforto but adds more power to the lineup. But significantly less defensive utility. Conforto just makes too much sense for us IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maloney.adam Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 Just now, Chicago White Sox said: But significantly less defensive utility. Conforto just makes too much sense for us IMO. What would you think if we signed both? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold's Leg Lift Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 4 minutes ago, ShoeLessRob said: We have too many players who are poor defensively and an over abundance of DH/1st types. But they all hit right handed with the exception of Sheets and he is not a legitimate middle of the order option for a team with WS aspirations. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShoeLessRob Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 2 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said: But they all hit right handed with the exception of Sheets and he is not a legitimate middle of the order option for a team with WS aspirations. So who do you trade then? Vaughn, Eloy, or Abreu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 12 minutes ago, maloney.adam said: Schwarber actually would be a good fit for this team and he’s only 28 years old. Same age as Conforto but adds more power to the lineup. Offensively he is, defensively he absolutely is not. The Sox already have too many DH types and that’s exactly what Schwarber is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maloney.adam Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 1 minute ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said: Offensively he is, defensively he absolutely is not. The Sox already have too many DH types and that’s exactly what Schwarber is. Yes but they are too right handed. We could use some LH power. They should trade either Vaughn or Eloy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 5 minutes ago, bmags said: Outs Above Average: Eloy Jimenez: +2 (LF) Vaughn : -3 (LF) FRAA: Eloy Jimenes: -0.2 Andrew Vaughn: -3.8 Does the FRAA include Vaughn's time at other positions? He was notably less comfortable in RF than LF in a small sample. I am not an expert at defensive advanced stats. Will admit as much. I do know that OAA is considered the best OF defense metric, so perhaps I was wrong all stats show AV being superior in LF in 21. I know UZR is usually better for infielders, but that supports that AV was better than Eloy in LF. Eloy: UZR: -0.7 UZR/150: -6.7 AV: UZR: 2.1 UZR/150: 3.5 That said, I watch 95% of all Sox games, so I've seen quite a bit of Eloy and Vaughn in LF (obviously you have as well), and it was pretty obvious to the eye (in my opinion; which certainly seems to be supported by others on here) that Vaughn is a superior LF to Eloy. I also think AV has plenty of room to grow out there, while Eloy likely is what he is since that's his "natural" position. This also discounts that Eloy is a danger to himself and others, which is notable. Regardless, this is all sort of irrelevant to the fact that none of Eloy, AV or Schwarber are good OF defenders. At max, 1 should be playing the OF regularly. Adding Schwarber makes that impossible. He's a terrible fit for this roster unless core pieces are traded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted November 24, 2021 Author Share Posted November 24, 2021 11 minutes ago, maloney.adam said: What would you think if we signed both? I’d be 100% cool with that if that means Vaughn is trading for a legit TOR starter. Just not sure who fits that bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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