2022 Offseason Plan Thread

[ChiSox59]

23 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

It’s not trading Vaughn to make room for Gavin.  It’s trading Vaughn to add a cornerstone guy at a greater position of need.  I get it’s easy to say “just go spend money” to fill all our holes, but that’s not remotely realistic with Jerry as owner.  We desperately need another high-end pitcher and a left-handed bat of some sorts at minimum plus multiple bullpen arms.  Once we run out of money, it’s going to be near impossible for us to continuing adding without subtracting from the major league roster.  Again, I just don’t see how we address all our needs without tapping into our LF/1B/DH glut.  Hopefully I’m wrong and Hahn finds a way to make it all work.

It is trading Vaughn to make room for Gavin tho. The Sox have 2 holes in the everyday lineup. Two. They can easily fill them via FA and trading non cornerstone guys. 2B doesn’t even need to that great of a guy as long as he fits into bottom of order nicely and fields his position. There are options there. Sure another high end SP would be swell but that one i am not at all counting on. 

 

 

[SCCWS]

3 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

It is trading Vaughn to make room for Gavin tho. The Sox have 2 holes in the everyday lineup. Two. They can easily fill them via FA and trading non cornerstone guys. 2B doesn’t even need to that great of a guy as long as he fits into bottom of order nicely and fields his position. There are options there. Sure another high end SP would be swell but that one i am not at all counting on. 

 

 

Just look at the playoffs. How many starting pitchers were not available or were limited. So if Rodon is gone, the Sox absolutely need a middle of the  rotation guy. Now maybe it is Kopech or Lopez but both are questionable commodities especially with  Keuchel also a question mark. 

[tray]

Vaughn probably sticks around for another season as a platoon player. If LaRussa continues to keep him on the bench against tougher RH starters, he should be able to inflate his numbers and add to his value.

[CentralChamps21]

3 minutes ago, tray said:

Vaughn probably sticks around for another season as a platoon player. If LaRussa continues to keep him on the bench against tougher RH starters, he should be able to inflate his numbers and add to his value.

Yes, that will totally fool 29 career baseball talent evaluators if the Sox manipulate Vaughn's stats by doing that. Every single one of them will fall for that trick.

[Chicago White Sox]

 

[hi8is]

6 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

 

Who is this Twitter man of information? Thou hast not heard of such a fellow but I would not object to Kemp + Conforto + SP + Bullpen arms…

?

[Two-Gun Pete]

On 11/12/2021 at 8:08 AM, Y2Jimmy0 said:

It would be a short-sighted LaRussa led move if it happens. Trading Andrew Vaughn is stupid with an owner that doesn't play at the top of the free agent market. He's a cornerstone player. I would hate it. 

I think that, while we all believe in Vaughn's future, he's a bit redundant in this lineup/roster. He's awesome vs LHP, but we've already got a lot of that. He also sucks ass vs RHP, and unfortunately, we've also already got a lot of that.

Looking at his splits, he's been a 68 WRC+ hitter vs RHP. If he makes a 20% leap forward vs RHP, that's still only a WRC+ of ~82. A 30% improvement in WRC+ vs RHP only gets him to an 89. It would take a 50% QUANTUM LEAP forward vs RHP for Vaughn to get his WRC+ to a 102.

 

Now, I believe he can and will get better vs RHP, but will he be able to do it in time for this competitive window? Before Hendriks ages out? Before Giolito signs elsewhere? Before TA signs elsewhere? I dunno.

Also, his shitty RHP splits come attached to a guy who really can't field a position.

The other 1B/LF/DH types won't return much in trade, IMO. (Eloy and his injuries, Sheets and his lack of prior prospect status, Burger and his fat ass leading him to be perma-injured.) On balance, I think I agree with Chicago White Sox, in that Vaughn might have to be moved, whether we like it or not.

[Chicago White Sox]

2 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

I think that, while we all believe in Vaughn's future, he's a bit redundant in this lineup/roster. He's awesome vs LHP, but we've already got a lot of that. He also sucks ass vs RHP, and unfortunately, we've also already got a lot of that.

Looking at his splits, he's been a 68 WRC+ hitter vs RHP. If he makes a 20% leap forward vs RHP, that's still only a WRC+ of ~82. A 30% improvement in WRC+ vs RHP only gets him to an 89. It would take a 50% QUANTUM LEAP forward vs RHP for Vaughn to get his WRC+ to a 102.

 

Now, I believe he can and will get better vs RHP, but will he be able to do it in time for this competitive window? Before Hendriks ages out? Before Giolito signs elsewhere? Before TA signs elsewhere? I dunno.

Also, his shitty RHP splits come attached to a guy who really can't field a position.

The other 1B/LF/DH types won't return much in trade, IMO. (Eloy and his injuries, Sheets and his lack of prior prospect status, Burger and his fat ass leading him to be perma-injured.) On balance, I think I agree with Chicago White Sox, in that Vaughn might have to be moved, whether we like it or not.

Vaughn put up a 142 wRC in June against RHP in 80 plate appearances with strong line drive and hard contact rates.  He then proceeded to get injured, wear out, and have some bad BABIP luck.  I fully expect him to be productive against RHP next year, but I also think most GMs would feel that way as well and as such he’d return the most value out of all our 1B/LF/DH types.  I really don’t want to move him and it’s not about opening up a spot for Sheets, but if we can get someone like Lux before he blows up I think we’d be crazy not to explore it.

[Two-Gun Pete]

9 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Vaughn put up a 142 wRC in June against RHP in 80 plate appearances with strong line drive and hard contact rates.  He then proceeded to get injured, wear out, and have some bad BABIP luck.  I fully expect him to be productive against RHP next year, but I also think most GMs would feel that way as well and as such he’d return the most value out of all our 1B/LF/DH types.  I really don’t want to move him and it’s not about opening up a spot for Sheets, but if we can get someone like Lux before he blows up I think we’d be crazy not to explore it.

The bolded is SSS.

I too don't actually want to move Vaughn. I also don't think that we'd have a prayer of getting Lux in return for "just" Vaughn, TBH. Maybe Vaughn, + Kimbrel + cash could get Lux? But for as much as White Sox Nation believes in Vaughn, LAD believe MORE in Lux.

I agree its not about opening up a slot for Sheets, but Sheets offers this lineup something than none of the other 1B/LF/DH can offer in his LH bat. To me, it isn't "Sheets vs. Vaughn." Its "Vaughn vs Jimenez," in terms of who to move/what can be gotten in return. 

 

Edited November 13, 2021 by Two-Gun Pete

[Chicago White Sox]

7 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

The bolded is SSS.

I too don't actually want to move Vaughn. I also don't think that we'd have a prayer of getting Lux in return for "just" Vaughn, TBH. Maybe Vaughn, + Kimbrel + cash could get Lux? But for as much as White Sox Nation believes in Vaughn, LAD believe MORE in Lux.

I agree its not about opening up a slot for Sheets, but Sheets offers this lineup something than none of the other 1B/LF/DH can offer in his LH bat. To me, it isn't "Sheets vs. Vaughn." Its "Vaughn vs Jimenez," in terms of who to move/what can be gotten in return. 

 

No doubt it’s a small sample size, but he also looked the part in June.  The talent is clearly there and I think it’s only a matter of time before it formulates into consistent production against RHP.  That being said, I tend to agree on Lux.  I think the Dodgers would probably still value him higher than Vaughn.  But if they’ve soured on him enough and have other plans for 2B, then I’d be all over that trade.  I know many here feel differently however and that’s totally fine as Andrew should be a special hitter with time.

[chw42]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

 

Kemp is interesting in that he's a lot like Madrigal, but his one good tool is his ability to get on base. I think the Sox do need more OBP oriented guys, but Kemp is a very low ceiling player offensively who doesn't play good defense at 2B. 

[bmags]

Okay, here is a roster resource. I added some stuff so people could see how it works.

Please after you open it, copy a version for yourself. I think I restricted it anyway

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1v-L_AWIcTXsM6LdFFzwS7dB30E3rS-WLeOe4anRs1MI/

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

No doubt it’s a small sample size, but he also looked the part in June.  The talent is clearly there and I think it’s only a matter of time before it formulates into consistent production against RHP.  That being said, I tend to agree on Lux.  I think the Dodgers would probably still value him higher than Vaughn.  But if they’ve soured on him enough and have other plans for 2B, then I’d be all over that trade.  I know many here feel differently however and that’s totally fine as Andrew should be a special hitter with time.

Losing Taylor, Kike and Seager (these past two off-seasons) makes it highly unlikely since their control of Turner is limited, too.  

They need to be more and more careful playing Muncy there as he ages, too.

Edited November 13, 2021 by caulfield12

[ron883]

24 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Losing Taylor, Kike and Seager (these past two off-seasons) makes it highly unlikely since their control of Turner is limited, too.  

They need to be more and more careful playing Muncy there as he ages, too.

This is disgusting. 

[hi8is]

1 hour ago, ron883 said:

This is disgusting. 

Tell it to Enrique and Monica.

[caulfield12]

Kiké Hernández

[tray]

6 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

 To me, it isn't "Sheets vs. Vaughn." Its "Vaughn vs Jimenez," in terms of who to move/what can be gotten in return.  

 

There is no way Vaughn is better than Eloy at anything other than playing deep in the outfield to keep everything in front of him and not taking risks diving for balls. Vaughn is a line drive hitter. He does not have the home run swing that Eloy has.   Vaughn hit 15 HR in 417 ABs in his rookie season. Eloy hit twice as many - 31 HR in 468 ABs in 2019. Vaughn does not have the wingspan or reach that Eloy has - Vaughn is 5'11"-6'0"   while Eloy is 6'4"=6'5". Vaughn  is probably the slowest player on the White Sox....in the field and on the bases. He is a tank, and his heavy torso and large shoe size makes it obvious that he is never going to get any faster.  Vaughn  is a .235 hitter and the sample size was not small. (Eloy is a combined .270 over 3 seasons)  . I understand that fans fall in love, so to speak, with certain prospects,  but at some point it is probably useful  to take the fan hat off and evaluate the stats and consider the speed and athleticism of a player. Vaughn is really limited in certain respects.

Eloy has some intangibles than Vaughn lacks in terms of his relationships with core players and his infectious positive attitude. He is also a clutch hitter and a serial Cub killer.

He also will not agree to be a full time DH, so forcing him to do that will complicate keeping him on the team.

Vaughn vs Sheets?  I think Sheets may have beaten Vaughn out for the DH spot after several clutch home runs toward the end of the season and the play-off HR against McCullers. 

Having said that, Vaughn probably stays as a platoon player in 2022 because I doubt any other team's GM  will buy into Steve Stone's hype like some of our fellow fans have. Yea, Vaughn hit at every level you know... like Little League and Pony League) so he is going to be an elite hitter  at the major league level. Oh my, he just caught another fly ball without being injured..and he is just a rookie that wasn't even supposed to play in the OF! Oh wow.

 

 

Edited November 14, 2021 by tray

[Kyyle23]

Guys I think tray might not like Vaughn and might even want to trade him

[michelangelosmonkey]

Honestly...I  know he's young and he's a rookie but Rickie Henderson put up an OPS under .700...was thrown out stealing 11 times, nearly a -2 dWAR.  Can't hit, can't field, can't run...he was a wasted pick and we need to try and trade him while the rest of the league is still fooled by his "potential" and ignores the truth. --Tray in 1980.    

[Chicago White Sox]

3 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Honestly...I  know he's young and he's a rookie but Rickie Henderson put up an OPS under .700...was thrown out stealing 11 times, nearly a -2 dWAR.  Can't hit, can't field, can't run...he was a wasted pick and we need to try and trade him while the rest of the league is still fooled by his "potential" and ignores the truth. --Tray in 1980.    

Tray has a very disturbing hatred for Vaughn and will use anything in his disposal to rip him accordingly.  He much prefers his favorite young Cuban in Eloy Jimenez.

[michelangelosmonkey]

2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Tray has a very disturbing hatred for Vaughn and will use anything in his disposal to rip him accordingly.  He much prefers his favorite young Cuban in Eloy Jimenez.

It's ok to be irrational over some players...I'm actually having fun researching hall of famers that were terrible in their rookie years.  Mike Schmidt at the same age as Vaughn (23) had a slightly lower OPS and many more strikeouts.  He was also a rh hitter that was TERRIBLE against rh pitchers (.600 OPS his rookie year)  The next year he put up an OPS of over .900 and maintained that .900 OPS for the next 17 years (and career OPS of .890 against rh pitchers after that first season).   Sometimes when you see greatness it's actually there and baseball requires patience.   One of the arguments for having Vaughn as everyday RF this year is just to unlock his bat.  Abreu's 35 this year...Vaughn is 24.  Abreu is stubborn about playing 1B.  Give him another year and then start the transition in 2023.    

[Two-Gun Pete]

10 hours ago, tray said:

1. There is no way Vaughn is better than Eloy at anything other than playing deep in the outfield to keep everything in front of him and not taking risks diving for balls.

2. I understand that fans fall in love, so to speak, with certain prospects,  but at some point it is probably useful  to take the fan hat off and evaluate the stats and consider the speed and athleticism of a player. Vaughn is really limited in certain respects.

1. Well, all three of Jimenez, Sheets, and Vaughn are deployed the same way: deep, so as to keep everything "in front of them," and to hide their obvious deficiencies.

The problem is that the defense can't support having ALL THREE, while the lineup already has plenty of LHP killers/RHP struggles. So pick one of the three, and get something. I'd rather not give up on a youngster so quickly, but RH/KW have stoopidly built a roster full of RHH 1B/LF/DH types; they've got to unfuck this.

2. Agreed that sometimes its inciteful to take the fan hat off; sometimes other posters get butthurt when you do. That said, 2021 was unfair to Vaughn, because injuries forced him into service before he should have been. 

Again, RH/KW fucked up in not getting some MiLB OF depth, and so Vaughn was forced up. Vaughn has some deficiencies, no doubt. 

I think he can improve, but I question if he can do so before Giolito and Lynn (and others) leave. This window will close, and this team needs solutions. If it means trading Jimenez or Vaughn, and it will fix this roster, then I'm all for it.

56 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Tray has a very disturbing hatred for Vaughn and will use anything in his disposal to rip him accordingly.  He much prefers his favorite young Cuban in Eloy Jimenez.

See, this iine of posting isn't constructive, unless its Ron and Abreu.

I dont think anyone here "hates" anyone on their favorite team, as I dont think any of us know any of the players on a personal level.

If you disagree with his post, then attack his posts, not the poster.

YMMV.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Two-Gun Pete

[Dick Allen]

I think the irrational hate anyone has for Vaugn is hysterical. The guy hardly got any minor league time in 2019, played at the alternate site in 2020 and had to mostly play a defensive position he had never played before all while making his major league debut. He held his own and until he either hit a wall or his back was bothering him, was starting to shine at the plate. If the Sox trade him, they will regret it.

[CentralChamps21]

I don't hate Vaughn. He's an outstanding talent. It's not his fault that he was forced to play out of position. It's also not his fault that his skill set is incredibly similar to others on the team, most notably Eloy and Jose. That said, having Vaughn in the same lineup as Eloy and Jose is problematic. I'm not going to try and guess as to what's the best way out of that situation, but it's a reality that has to be dealt with somehow.

[bmags]

For the Vaughn/sheets outfield believers I think this is an interesting approach of believing in the core while adding effective, flexible depth:

Team Salary: 180M

Assumes:

Trade Kimbrel w/o salary returned

Adds:

Chris Taylor @ 15.5M 

Leury @ 6M

Rich Hill

Collin McHugh

Trade: Chris Stratton

Hill and McHugh are there to provide starter depth without starter spots. Stratton is my pet project.

Taylor and Leury provide flexible players that can start interchangeably around the field, opening up easier playing time for Vaughn, Sheets.

Are we better vs RHH - not really.

Taylor was slightly above average last year vs RHP thanks to a decent OBP. But if you have the real Leury somehow (lol) of Sept, that’s two slightly better than avg vs RHP players.