Sox to talk about Semien with Boras

[caulfield12]

8 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Of highest contracts ever given out, the Sox only rank ahead of the:

Pirates
Rays
Indians
Athletics

The Sox ranked 15th in payroll in a year they, themselves, called all-in.

I wonder where they get that cheap moniker.

They "set the market" at positions and levels that aren't actually bank breaking.

There's a difference between setting the market on a house in a cheap neighborhood by buying the most expensive house, than there is setting the market in a desirable and wealthy neighborhood by buying the most expensive house.

But the Braves were 12th!

You're only going to hear about payroll for the last two months of the 2021 season or current commitments being #6, which includes bad contracts like Keuchel and Kimbrel.

Which only proves the unprecedented financial flexibility was/is almost gone without even adding a Wheeler, Harper or Machado.

As it stands, the odds are at best 50/50 retaining Giolito or TA, for that matter.

 

If our standard is out spending the Twins, though, hooray?

Edited November 11, 2021 by caulfield12

[Chicago White Sox]

4 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The Sox claimed they offered "the most" to Machado too. Difference is in the Machado one the concept of "most" was called to question.

Which is exactly the point I just made.

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

How is admitting that you offered a guy more money and he accepted to go elsewhere using the media to your advantage? lol

Telling the story that they weren't "cheap" seemed important there.

[michelangelosmonkey]

I came here to read about the exciting concept of the White Sox adding Semien's 40 home run power and plus defense to a team that is already stacked...and of course it is nothing but the constant idiotic narrative of the White Sox being a cheap team...I know I have written it a hundred times...but the 00's, 90's and 80's when they had good teams they were a top five payroll...some one wrote in another thread about the 2005 team only being 15th in payroll...or some such nonsense...no one expected the 2005 team to be great...attendance wasn't great initially...but then they won, fans came out in droves and the next year they were 4th in payroll and again in 2007 and 5th in 2008.    Yes they have also always been cheap when the team is bad...as a businessman this makes perfect sense to me.  A top five payroll in 2021 would have been $190 million.  The likely increase in attendance pays for that (Sox fans have proven over the years they will come out for a winner).  So given their current commitments they can EASILY afford Semien.  So adding him and letting Vaughn play right field...your worst hitter is probably lefty Sheets at DH who put up an .800+ OPS as a rookie.  That team will score 9 runs a game.  

[southsider2k5]

2 hours ago, beck72 said:

Long term, Vaughn could be a better fit than Eloy with the other pieces the Sox have. Eloy would garner a better return sure. So could Vaughn plus the other additons be better than simply Eloy? Yeah, depending on who. 

Kimbrel was lights out and then flopped. That was on him not management. All the other playoff contenders would have added them if the price wasn't too high.

Vaughn could actually have more value by being healthy.  What's the value of a guy who misses large chunks of the season vs one who plays all year and puts up lesser numbers?

[beck72]

18 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Vaughn could actually have more value by being healthy.  What's the value of a guy who misses large chunks of the season vs one who plays all year and puts up lesser numbers?

If Eloy shows he’s healthy in 2022, and has a full year like 2020. I wouldn’t trade him at his lowest value now. 

The way Vaughn took to LF, and adjusted to MLB pitching for the first time (before he got hurt in September) shows he’s got a future. 

[Two-Gun Pete]

First of all, the tweet came from Levine, who knows exactly Jack and Shit about anything related to baseball. He knows LESS THAN nothing about White Sox baseball. Whenever you hear him on the radio, or read his tweets, everyone around him becomes dumber for having seen or heard him. He's only good for fellating his beloved cubs, relating all baseball things to his beloved cubs, and comparing all matters relating to baseball to his beloved cubs. Why, exactly should we give a shit about what he says?

What's more, why doesn't his radio station hire someone actually COMPETENT to be it's "baseball expert? I mean, Mark Gonzales was pretty good at covering both teams, and I suspect he'd do a better job than Levine at whatever Levine does. Hell, a blind, drunk monkey knows more about baseball than Levine does.

 

Secondly, while we would all want to re-acquire Semien, I simply don't see this happening. Has anyone competent reported on this, or is this the worthless tweet from old, useless, worthless piece of shit Bruce Levine the only link? This seems like a waste of time discussing, because it seems as (un)likely as Machado signing here. [Is Comforto/Semien this year's "Harpchado?]

[Balta1701]

23 minutes ago, beck72 said:

If Eloy shows he’s healthy in 2022, and has a full year like 2020. I wouldn’t trade him at his lowest value now. 

The way Vaughn took to LF, and adjusted to MLB pitching for the first time (before he got hurt in September) shows he’s got a future. 

I'm struggling a lot with the concept of "has a full year like 2020."

[Chicago White Sox]

6 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I'm struggling a lot with the concept of "has a full year like 2020."

Lol…you’re actually struggling with someone saying if Eloy replicated his 2020 results over a full season?

[Chicago White Sox]

27 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

First of all, the tweet came from Levine, who knows exactly Jack and Shit about anything related to baseball. He knows LESS THAN nothing about White Sox baseball. Whenever you hear him on the radio, or read his tweets, everyone around him becomes dumber for having seen or heard him. He's only good for fellating his beloved cubs, relating all baseball things to his beloved cubs, and comparing all matters relating to baseball to his beloved cubs. Why, exactly should we give a shit about what he says?

What's more, why doesn't his radio station hire someone actually COMPETENT to be it's "baseball expert? I mean, Mark Gonzales was pretty good at covering both teams, and I suspect he'd do a better job than Levine at whatever Levine does. Hell, a blind, drunk monkey knows more about baseball than Levine does.

 

Secondly, while we would all want to re-acquire Semien, I simply don't see this happening. Has anyone competent reported on this, or is this the worthless tweet from old, useless, worthless piece of shit Bruce Levine the only link? This seems like a waste of time discussing, because it seems as (un)likely as Machado signing here. [Is Comforto/Semien this year's "Harpchado?]

Are you actually comparing Conforto & Semien to two dudes that cleared $300M?  I fully agree that Semien is extremely unlikely, but these dudes are nothing like “Harpchado”.

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I came here to read about the exciting concept of the White Sox adding Semien's 40 home run power and plus defense to a team that is already stacked...and of course it is nothing but the constant idiotic narrative of the White Sox being a cheap team...I know I have written it a hundred times...but the 00's, 90's and 80's when they had good teams they were a top five payroll...some one wrote in another thread about the 2005 team only being 15th in payroll...or some such nonsense...no one expected the 2005 team to be great...attendance wasn't great initially...but then they won, fans came out in droves and the next year they were 4th in payroll and again in 2007 and 5th in 2008.    Yes they have also always been cheap when the team is bad...as a businessman this makes perfect sense to me.  A top five payroll in 2021 would have been $190 million.  The likely increase in attendance pays for that (Sox fans have proven over the years they will come out for a winner).  So given their current commitments they can EASILY afford Semien.  So adding him and letting Vaughn play right field...your worst hitter is probably lefty Sheets at DH who put up an .800+ OPS as a rookie.  That team will score 9 runs a game.  

1)  The White Sox didn't break through early in their windows like three classic rebuild from Ground Zero teams we could all name...

2)  1994/2022 parallels...still sting/lurk.

3)  TLR...overall lack of advanced analytical approach.

4)  Kimbrel and Rodon leaving a bad taste with some if not many.

5)  No changes on major league coaching staff after watching the last two months and Astros series.

6)  Not (yet) being pushed by AL Central teams to motivate front office responses.

Edited November 12, 2021 by caulfield12

[hankchifan]

13 hours ago, beck72 said:

If Semien is the Sox #1 free agent target, improving RF with another big addition [lefty bat] should be the next item of business via trade. The Sox should look at this offseason thinking they have a two year window to win a World Series. [While they have Grandal, Jose still playing well, Lynn and Hendriks]. The Sox would still have talent to be playoff competitive past the next two years. But some risky moves should be made that make some big improvements over the 2021 Sox.

Right now, TA and Robert are the two most irreplaceable Sox-Grandal is a close 3rd. Semien for 2b would also provide insurance in case TA goes down. Adding a lefty bat who can also play CF to improve the OF defense. Going after Cedric Mullins or Bryan Reynolds would be the moves that may be risky. But they both have key upside and add to the existing team with their versatility and athleticism. 

Of course, trades like that would mean either Andrew Vaughn or Garrett Crochet headlining. I really like Vaughn esp. with what he did in LF. And Crochet has done everything the Sox have asked and needed from him. [I don't know if he has the 3rd pitch necessary to be a TOR starter]. But BALT or PITT may see him as a guy who is. But Vaughn's 2022 could be replaced by a full year of Eloy and Robert. And both Mullins and Reynolds would be around for 4 years. And a case could be made that with Vaughn's impressive 2021, he may be someone to stick with over Eloy for LF, and have Eloy be part of a win now trade. 

I know people want to add to the rotation. None of the current 1-5's are going anywhere. I see adding more depth in AAA as  the key. Cease is likely to improve, enough to be the #1 or #2. Keuchel certainly has the talent to be a #4 or 5, with a likely bounce back year. Getting Kopech 150 innings is the biggest rotation question mark. 

I beg to differ that Vaughn had an impressive 2021.  His performance with RISP was certainly not impressive.

[michelangelosmonkey]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

1)  The White Sox didn't break through early in their windows like three classic rebuild from Ground Zero teams we could all name...

2)  1994/2022 parallels...still sting/lurk.

3)  TLR...overall lack of advanced analytical approach.

4)  Kimbrel and Rodon leaving a bad taste with some if not many.

5)  No changes on major league coaching staff after watching the last two months and Astros series.

6)  Not (yet) being pushed by AL Central teams to motivate front office responses.

???   You list six sort of random points that have nothing to do with my comment which was basically...it's untrue that White Sox are cheap when in a competitive window, and, Semien on this team and they will score 9 runs a game.  But regarding your points:

1) Dodgers took 8 years to break through...playoffs are random and the White Sox are still very early in their window...almost all their star players are 26 or younger.

2) Truth...1994 was my most bitter year as a fan...that team was the best of my life.

3)  Hahn threw out numbers in his presser about defensive alignments...not sure I really understood but clearly they are looking at numbers but different numbers than we are.  This year was an amazingly complicated year with Eloy, Robert, Madrigal and Yaz missing vast amounts of the year, Leury played the 4th most games of any player and Keuchel had an ERA of over 5..if you told me those 6 things would happen and we would win 93 games...a fair person would say that TLR did an amazing job. 

4) Come on...the offseason is 15 minutes in.  It wouldn't shock me to see them trade Kimbrel and sign Rodon for 3/40.  Or keep Kimbrel for a killer bullpen...or sign Robbie Ray.  Let's see how it plays out.

5) They stunk in the playoffs....in a sport where we measure by hundreds of games you can't draw conclusions on 5.  See Dodgers.  

6) Why would the front office not try to win the WS?  That is a ridiculous take.  Last off season they added the fireman of the year and a finalist for the CY Young.  Not every move worked out but this team is loaded with talent.  I remember five years ago thinking the Nationals would win the WS as they were stacked...and it took years but they finally won it....I thought the same about the Dodgers...and it took them nearly a decade of 90 win teams.  I thought the same about the Braves at the end of 2020.   You bring together a ton of talent and then you wait for it to explode.  This team will explode at some point...we are all too impatient.  

[joejoesox]

4 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

But the Braves were 12th!

You're only going to hear about payroll for the last two months of the 2021 season or current commitments being #6, which includes bad contracts like Keuchel and Kimbrel.

Which only proves the unprecedented financial flexibility was/is almost gone without even adding a Wheeler, Harper or Machado.

As it stands, the odds are at best 50/50 retaining Giolito or TA, for that matter.

 

If our standard is out spending the Twins, though, hooray?

TA will get locked up, Giolito is gone tho imo

[caulfield12]

7 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

???   You list six sort of random points that have nothing to do with my comment which was basically...it's untrue that White Sox are cheap when in a competitive window, and, Semien on this team and they will score 9 runs a game.  But regarding your points:

1) Dodgers took 8 years to break through...playoffs are random and the White Sox are still very early in their window...almost all their star players are 26 or younger.

2) Truth...1994 was my most bitter year as a fan...that team was the best of my life.

3)  Hahn threw out numbers in his presser about defensive alignments...not sure I really understood but clearly they are looking at numbers but different numbers than we are.  This year was an amazingly complicated year with Eloy, Robert, Madrigal and Yaz missing vast amounts of the year, Leury played the 4th most games of any player and Keuchel had an ERA of over 5..if you told me those 6 things would happen and we would win 93 games...a fair person would say that TLR did an amazing job. 

4) Come on...the offseason is 15 minutes in.  It wouldn't shock me to see them trade Kimbrel and sign Rodon for 3/40.  Or keep Kimbrel for a killer bullpen...or sign Robbie Ray.  Let's see how it plays out.

5) They stunk in the playoffs....in a sport where we measure by hundreds of games you can't draw conclusions on 5.  See Dodgers.  

6) Why would the front office not try to win the WS?  That is a ridiculous take.  Last off season they added the fireman of the year and a finalist for the CY Young.  Not every move worked out but this team is loaded with talent.  I remember five years ago thinking the Nationals would win the WS as they were stacked...and it took years but they finally won it....I thought the same about the Dodgers...and it took them nearly a decade of 90 win teams.  I thought the same about the Braves at the end of 2020.   You bring together a ton of talent and then you wait for it to explode.  This team will explode at some point...we are all too impatient.  

Robbie Ray most definitely won't be a Sox sign....less chance than Semien, even.

Also, still having a hard time imagining $175-200 million going to TA entering his age 31/32 season in 2025.

[michelangelosmonkey]

58 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Robbie Ray most definitely won't be a Sox sign....less chance than Semien, even.

Also, still having a hard time imagining $175-200 million going to TA entering his age 31/32 season in 2025.

I'm pretty sure I agree with you on TA...but let's enjoy 2022,23, 24 with him and not worry about the second half of the window yet.  They drafted his replacement this year.  

I also don't think you can be "definite" about who they will sign.  Still I don't love RR...he had a great 2021 but do you want to pay a 30 year old pitcher coming off his career year?  He's pitched a 1,000 innings, mostly in the NL, with a career FIP above 4.  Rodon is younger, with less wear on the tires, better career FIP all in the AL and when he pitched he was elite in 2021.  In fact I think the only reason they don't resign Rodon is if their medical people say his arm is going to fall off.  Hahn said an interesting thing about the team having 1500 innings to pitch and needing to find the best pitchers to fill it.   I feel like there is a re-think going on in baseball about that 32 start, 200 inning pitcher so getting Rodon as an elite 150 inning a year guy is really valuable.   I suspect they agreed with Rodon and Boras to let Rodon try to get the best payday possible without a compensation pick attached...but give the White Sox a chance to swoop in at the end.  Honestly there is not a better match for the Sox out there than the April-July Rodon and his end of the year fatigue and past injury history is going to drag down his price.  Would a 5/$90 contract be crazy as long as you had a bunch of injury settlements built in?     

[Balta1701]

58 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I'm pretty sure I agree with you on TA...but let's enjoy 2022,23, 24 with him and not worry about the second half of the window yet.  They drafted his replacement this year.  

I also don't think you can be "definite" about who they will sign.  Still I don't love RR...he had a great 2021 but do you want to pay a 30 year old pitcher coming off his career year?  He's pitched a 1,000 innings, mostly in the NL, with a career FIP above 4.  Rodon is younger, with less wear on the tires, better career FIP all in the AL and when he pitched he was elite in 2021.  In fact I think the only reason they don't resign Rodon is if their medical people say his arm is going to fall off.  Hahn said an interesting thing about the team having 1500 innings to pitch and needing to find the best pitchers to fill it.   I feel like there is a re-think going on in baseball about that 32 start, 200 inning pitcher so getting Rodon as an elite 150 inning a year guy is really valuable.   I suspect they agreed with Rodon and Boras to let Rodon try to get the best payday possible without a compensation pick attached...but give the White Sox a chance to swoop in at the end.  Honestly there is not a better match for the Sox out there than the April-July Rodon and his end of the year fatigue and past injury history is going to drag down his price.  Would a 5/$90 contract be crazy as long as you had a bunch of injury settlements built in?     

While I do buy that Boras will shop around any offer before signing it unless it’s simply unbeatable, Scott Boras doesn’t work this way. He doesn’t play favorites and agree that he will give a specific team a last shot at something for a favor, he will only do things like that if it benefits his clients. If someone offered Rodon a really good contract today it would be signed today and the White Sox wouldn’t know anything about it until it was all over. If he gave the White Sox a chance to match an offer and they did, he would still take that White Sox offer over to 4 other teams and ask if they will beat it. He’d then come back to the White Sox and say that an imaginary team offered an extra $5 million and ask the White Sox to beat it again.

[Chicago White Sox]

15 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

While I do buy that Boras will shop around any offer before signing it unless it’s simply unbeatable, Scott Boras doesn’t work this way. He doesn’t play favorites and agree that he will give a specific team a last shot at something for a favor, he will only do things like that if it benefits his clients. If someone offered Rodon a really good contract today it would be signed today and the White Sox wouldn’t know anything about it until it was all over. If he gave the White Sox a chance to match an offer and they did, he would still take that White Sox offer over to 4 other teams and ask if they will beat it. He’d then come back to the White Sox and say that an imaginary team offered an extra $5 million and ask the White Sox to beat it again.

I think you’re misrepresenting Boras a bit here.  He literally comes up with outlandish asks for his mega-stars and will wait out as long as possible until a team meets it.  Once a team does meet that price (or comes close enough), I’m pretty sure he actually accepts without a bunch of gamemanship.  And he definitely has his go to clubs for star players as he knows there are only so many clubs who can take on massive contracts late in the off-season.

[Balta1701]

38 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I think you’re misrepresenting Boras a bit here.  He literally comes up with outlandish asks for his mega-stars and will wait out as long as possible until a team meets it.  Once a team does meet that price (or comes close enough), I’m pretty sure he actually accepts without a bunch of gamemanship.  And he definitely has his go to clubs for star players as he knows there are only so many clubs who can take on massive contracts late in the off-season.

The most famous example of Boras successfully using the “imaginary team bid this” strategy to get a team to bid up was ARod’s first $250 million deal with Texas.

[bmags]

Was thinking about the funny combo addition of Semien and Marte, who would make the white Sox more right handed, but dramatically improve their hitting vs RHP.

[Two-Gun Pete]

13 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Are you actually comparing Conforto & Semien to two dudes that cleared $300M?  I fully agree that Semien is extremely unlikely, but these dudes are nothing like “Harpchado”.

Yes, they're exactly alike:

Harper and Machado were unlikely to sign here, just as Conforto and Semien are unlikely to sign here. 

[Y2Jimmy0]

15 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The Sox claimed they offered "the most" to Machado too. Difference is in the Machado one the concept of "most" was called to question.

They didn't offer Machado the most money. That was a fiasco. They did with Wheeler though. 

[Chicago White Sox]

14 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Yes, they're exactly alike:

Harper and Machado were unlikely to sign here, just as Conforto and Semien are unlikely to sign here. 

Why is Conforto unlikely to sign here?

[Y2Jimmy0]

14 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

First of all, the tweet came from Levine, who knows exactly Jack and Shit about anything related to baseball. He knows LESS THAN nothing about White Sox baseball. Whenever you hear him on the radio, or read his tweets, everyone around him becomes dumber for having seen or heard him. He's only good for fellating his beloved cubs, relating all baseball things to his beloved cubs, and comparing all matters relating to baseball to his beloved cubs. Why, exactly should we give a shit about what he says?

What's more, why doesn't his radio station hire someone actually COMPETENT to be it's "baseball expert? I mean, Mark Gonzales was pretty good at covering both teams, and I suspect he'd do a better job than Levine at whatever Levine does. Hell, a blind, drunk monkey knows more about baseball than Levine does.

 

Secondly, while we would all want to re-acquire Semien, I simply don't see this happening. Has anyone competent reported on this, or is this the worthless tweet from old, useless, worthless piece of shit Bruce Levine the only link? This seems like a waste of time discussing, because it seems as (un)likely as Machado signing here. [Is Comforto/Semien this year's "Harpchado?]

This isn't true. Levine definitely has really bad opinions but he has legit sources built up over like 50 years in the game. 

[bmags]

It seems like we may have some real baseball movement to chew on before the lockout