2022 Hall of Fame ballot - Ortiz in; Bonds/Clemens NOT

[Balta1701]

14 minutes ago, Texsox said:

He was never officially caught.

Neither was Sosa. Nor McGwire.

[Texsox]

While I am 100% against the steroid guys getting in I will mention one facet that makes it seem unfair to those players: steroid use probably helped baseball win back fans. 

So after the players and owners fuck up this season, pull down the pants and bend over, we have a new drug for you.

[Texsox]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Neither was Sosa. Nor McGwire.

I'm just repeating the lame ass excuses from some of the baseball writers.

[Texsox]

This year I'm just focusing on Minnie finally getting in. There are so many players I can go to Cooperstown to celebrate I won't waste time at Ortiz' display.

[Big Hurtin]

2 minutes ago, Texsox said:

I'm just repeating the lame ass excuses from some of the baseball writers.

Yeah, a bunch of sanctimonious fart sniffers.  Whenever I now hear someone say so-and-so is a hall of fame player, I'm just going to be like "what does that even mean?  Where are the goalposts today?"

[Balta1701]

10 minutes ago, Texsox said:

I'm just repeating the lame ass excuses from some of the baseball writers.

Oh we’ve seen worse. Page 1 or 2 of this thread has a guy voting for Bonds but not Clemens. You can find an evisceration of it by me as well (Clemens had a higher career WAR than Kershaw does now at the point the Mitchell report says he started).

I can respect “we will do the best we can to keep these guys out until the Hall does something specific where we can put them. We may miss some, but we will stop most”. In that case you can’t vote for Ortiz either.

I can mostly respect “baseball wasn’t enforcing this rule so just count it and put them all in” even if I disagree.

The half excuses of Ortiz is ok and ARoid is not or Bonds gets in but Tetrahydrogestrinone does not because he was clean until 1998 are bad to me. You’re admitting you think these guys shouldn’t get in for cheating but assuming you can pick exactly when they started. You can’t. 

Beyond that they get even lamer. Ortiz is ok and Tetrahydrogestrinone is not…ugh.

But of course, because this is the worst timeline, that incoherent ugh is what we get.

[Texsox]

I use the my rule of 13. If I can stand there and tell a thirteen year old that this is someone the game should be proud of without a bunch of excuses, he's past the first test. I can't do that with guys like Bonds, Rose, Mac, Ortiz, etc. I'd much rather stand there and tell a kid about Baines or Mark. They added to the legend of MLB. The game doesn't have to make excuses for them.

/Off soap box for the day.

[southsider2k5]

25 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I’m pretty sure it’s the opposite.

Is it?

 

[flavum]

Next year’s ballot is much thinner- may be a good opportunity for Buehrle to bounce back.

Rolen, Helton, Wagner, Jones, Sheffield, A Rodriguez, Kent, M Ramirez, Vizquel, Pettitte, Rollins, Abreu, Buehrle, Hunter, Beltran (and if you want to at least discuss Lackey and Francisco Rodriguez). That’s it. Tim Hudson fell off. Teixeira, Nathan, Lincecum didn’t get 5%.

[southsider2k5]

 

[Chisoxfn]

28 minutes ago, Texsox said:

While I am 100% against the steroid guys getting in I will mention one facet that makes it seem unfair to those players: steroid use probably helped baseball win back fans. 

So after the players and owners fuck up this season, pull down the pants and bend over, we have a new drug for you.

It is still one of the most memorable eras of my fandom - and I look back at it with tons of positivity and enjoyment. I don't remember that they were all juicing (Or I guess I do - but it doesn't change my memories). I remember being in awe as my dad and grandpa watched the HR chase. I remember going to a baseball game with my grandpa (90 at the time and a diehard Cardinals fan) and all of us just having our jaws dropped watching batting practice as McGuire put ball after ball 40 rows deep into the bleachers in San Diego.  

I remember watching Sunday night baseball during family dinners that year (with my grandpa) and everyone just looking and wondering will they break the record or not.  It was fascinating. They were incredible and I will always remember that. That is part of what the game is - the entertainment it brought and some of these players not getting in were the most electric and entertaining in their era. That to me is what the HOF is all about.i

Note: 20 years from now it will be a moot point because those guys will get elected by their peers being recognized for what they were - legends of their own era. Yeah - the era had question marks but no different than people debating people from the dead ball era or the live ball era etc.  

[Quin]

Interesting comment from Reddit

-----

Current franchises with at least one HOFer on their roster in over 80% of their MLB seasons:

Boston Red Sox 91.7%  
New York Yankees 86.4%  
Atlanta Braves 86.2%  
Chicago White Sox 85.8%  
St. Louis Cardinals 82.7%  
Detroit Tigers 80.8%

World Series champions with no HOFers on their roster (at any point in that season):  

1981, 1997, 2002, 2006, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2014-present

[southsider2k5]

 

[pcq]

7 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

 

I like keeping the dix out. They say don't complain if you didn't vote. Just deal with it. 

[reiks12]

Its hilarious to me that Ortiz claims he wasnt juicing. On the Twins he had an 800 OPS then goes to the loaded and juiced red sox in 2003 and starts mashing. 

Look at that 2003 red sox lineup and tell me with a straight face that Manny was the only roider. Look at the jumps in slugging from some of those guys.

You mean to tell me Ortiz turned down the juice? Come on. 

The roiders should all be in, but this Ortiz worship by the media is pathetic.

[kleedawg]

15 hours ago, CentralChamps21 said:

Ortiz got in, first ballot no less, but all the other steroid cheats are shut out. Why is he different?

EDIT: Buehrle down below 6%. Next year might be his last.

I've been listening to the pundits on MLB network and they think that Mark Buehrle will eventually get in the hall of fame because of the statistical correction in how present day pitchers will be viewed. For example, no one is likely to ever win 300 games again. 200 wins may be considered the wins bench mark.

[knightni]

If Ortiz, Piazza, and Ivan Rodriguez are in, there's no reason why the other steroid/PED users shouldn't be in as well.

[Balta1701]

14 hours ago, Quin said:

Interesting comment from Reddit

-----

Current franchises with at least one HOFer on their roster in over 80% of their MLB seasons:

Boston Red Sox 91.7%  
New York Yankees 86.4%  
Atlanta Braves 86.2%  
Chicago White Sox 85.8%  
St. Louis Cardinals 82.7%  
Detroit Tigers 80.8%

World Series champions with no HOFers on their roster (at any point in that season):  

1981, 1997, 2002, 2006, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2014-present

Something tells me that the 2006, 2010, 2011, 2012, and 2014 teams will be leaving that list in 5 years.

[SoxAce]

1 hour ago, knightni said:

If Ortiz, Piazza, and Ivan Rodriguez are in, there's no reason why the other steroid/PED users shouldn't be in as well.

Bingo.

[Kyyle23]

2 hours ago, knightni said:

If Ortiz, Piazza, and Ivan Rodriguez are in, there's no reason why the other steroid/PED users shouldn't be in as well.

That's because a lot of it isn't about steroids, it's about these writers having grudges about interviews and access and attitudes.  

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, Kyyle23 said:

That's because a lot of it isn't about steroids, it's about these writers having grudges about interviews and access and attitudes.  

Which is BS.  It's one thing to hold an ethics argument based on the morals clause.  It is another to be petty because they didn't treat you well enough.

[Kyyle23]

8 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Which is BS.  It's one thing to hold an ethics argument based on the morals clause.  It is another to be petty because they didn't treat you well enough.

The entire voting process is BS.  There is no real rules, these jerks are handing in blank ballots to prove points for consecutive years.  That shit needs to stop 

[NWINFan]

6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Which is BS.  It's one thing to hold an ethics argument based on the morals clause.  It is another to be petty because they didn't treat you well enough.

I agree. Media people have long memories, and many times are just plain petty as you indicate. I don't look at the sports section all that often, because there are few good sportswriters nowadays. Regardless, when it comes to the Hall, people need to think in a larger way.

[Colome's Hat]

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/sports/nbcsports/screw-curt-schilling-and-other-thoughts-on-my-hall-of-fame-ballot/2738335/

 

This ballot is infuriating and this guy honestly should have his voting privileges revoked.  Setting aside Bonds and Clemens, which to be honest, the fact that Bonds isn't in the Hall of Fame is embarrassing to me, the fact that he could only find FOUR players in a year that is stacked is just ridiculous to me.  Hunter over Andruw Jones?  Not including Scott Rolen.  No Jeff Kent.  No Mark Buehrle?  And quite frankly, I would include Schilling, but as much as it pains me to say it because Vizquel was one of my favorite players, what he did, which is not just sexual harassment but actually assault, occurred on a baseball diamond and for me that is enough to not include him on a ballot.  I hate Schilling and I would have gone to Cooperstown this year to protest him and raise money for trans rights or something but as a baseball player, he deserves it and at least what he did was off the baseball diamond.  

 

We desperately need a new generation of writers who will actually do their homework and look at statistics and careers.  I think if we had this, Bonds and Clemens would be in, and I also think Buehrle would have gotten a lot higher than 5% and I also think Rolen would be in by now.  And Larry Walker wouldn't have to wait for his final year to be inducted.

[southsider2k5]

Change the HOF guidelines then.