southsider2k5 Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 3 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said: Injuries are inevitable it seems (unfortunately). Sheets can still see a decent amount of time. Eloy will almost certainly get hurt for a stretch. Robert too. Having more good OFs is a really good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 1 minute ago, ChiSox59 said: I am completely unconcerned about finding at bats for Sheets. He'll get his opportunities. Moving Vaughn or Eloy to make room for everyday at bats for Gavin Sheets would go down as a historic mistake. Yeah I'm not concerned either but more for the people who claim we have a glut of guys that only play corner spots + DH. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxForce2 Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said: On the trade front, you could also acquire a left-handed or switch hitting 2B. Ketel Marte would be a tremendous piece for us and is under a very reasonable contract the next three years, which makes it easier to allocate funds elsewhere. Again, a team like the DBacks will likely prefer Vaughn to Eloy for the reasons stated above. Another theoretical concept I’ve brought up is doing a unproven prospect for prospect trade, with Gavin Lux being my main proposal. This assumes some risk with an unproven player, but allows to maintain a pre-arb player at a greater area of need. Not weighing in on a Eloy/Vaughn trade point so much as looking at K. Marte as a trade target. I like the guy at the plate and he gives you a decent versatility card in the field, but he hasn't played 2B regularly since 2018. He's been mostly in CF the past 2-3 years - filling in at 2B here and there. Odd thing is he shows better defensive numbers as an infielder than in the OF and he doesn't have especially good numbers in CF. As to how well he'd work out in RF is something of a question mark. If the Sox are seeing some kind of shift of Marte/Leury/Romy at 2B and Marte/Engel in RF, snagging Ketel could prove to be innovative move. But yeah, you're going to have to give up a Vaughn and someone else to make the deal work. Edited November 23, 2021 by FoxForce2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capn12 Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 No 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 33 minutes ago, Capn12 said: No This was my response but with the following added: if we can get a stud rotation piece and fill RF / DH needs via free agency… I’m willing to entertain trading Vaughn. I’m also a huge Vaughn supporter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bighurt574 Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 I'd want to give them both at least 3-4 months to see what kind of progress they can make in '22 before even thinking about trading them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pants Rowland Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 Too early to know for sure, but if the Sox fail to get over the hump in 2022 due to again being too RH power dependent and weak defensively, I see a major trade coming (think Carlos Lee for Pods etc.) where one of Vaughn or Eloy are moved to better balance the ML squad. I agree that this offseason is bad timing, but I also do believe Vaughn will be more of a Konerko type that the fans love while people are going to tire of Eloy's constant ailments and boneheaded tendencies. With that said, I also think Eloy will be the more attractive piece to dangle to other GMs and boost trade return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GREEDY Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 Welcome to "Just spend money SZN" ? If you are bullish on Sheets... and aren't planning a 2022 Jose Abreu goodbye tour.... I don't see how you can be so vehemently against shopping our log jam. I'd hate to sell low on either as both eventually have a chance to be the best offensive player in the league BUT The poor defense (wherever you place any of them) could easily be the story in 2022 if we come up short again. I'm just not sure we can roster 3 bad first basemen, a bad LF, while also rostering having one of the highest paid catchers in the league... 5 guys who all need plate appearances at DH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colome's Hat Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 Neither. Let's stop this foolishness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 1 hour ago, GREEDY said: Welcome to "Just spend money SZN" ? If you are bullish on Sheets... and aren't planning a 2022 Jose Abreu goodbye tour.... I don't see how you can be so vehemently against shopping our log jam. I'd hate to sell low on either as both eventually have a chance to be the best offensive player in the league BUT The poor defense (wherever you place any of them) could easily be the story in 2022 if we come up short again. I'm just not sure we can roster 3 bad first basemen, a bad LF, while also rostering having one of the highest paid catchers in the league... 5 guys who all need plate appearances at DH. Team defense is at worst average with Vaughn in LF, Conforto in RF and a solid defender at 2B (lots of options). The key to improving OF defense is putting Eloy at DH 75%+ amount of the time, where he belongs. He’s a DH. It’s time to make him one. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirmin' for Yermin Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 1 minute ago, ChiSox59 said: Team defense is at worst average with Vaughn in LF, Conforto in RF and a solid defender at 2B (lots of options). The key to improving OF defense is putting Eloy at DH 75%+ amount of the time, where he belongs. He’s a DH. It’s time to make him one. yup. He needs to quit being a Biotch and just accept it. It's best for the team. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 1 minute ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said: yup. He needs to quit being a Biotch and just accept it. It's best for the team. Yep. I am fine with Eloy playing some LF for now, even just to keep him happy. I think/hope Sox should continue to work Vaughn in around the diamond a day or two a week while he's young. The Sox will likely win the division handily again next season - we can allow Eloy to play LF a day or two a week and deploy Vaughn elsewhere. Mix in Sheets, etc. But the days of Eloy running out to LF everyday need to be over. He's a danger to himself and everyone around him. Eloy is only good to the Sox if he's in the lineup raking. Vaughn is already easily a better LF (he graded out average this year amongst his peers in LF), and I think he can continue to improve. Get Conforto on this roster, and we can afford to wait back and see what happens with the 2B market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 1 hour ago, Colome's Hat said: Neither. Let's stop this foolishness. This is so right. I think we have all twisted ourselves in knots over this righty/lefty business. If we think, as I suspect all of us do, that both Eloy and Vaughn will be top 25 hitters...which this past year was an .870 OPS (Marcus Semien)...it is nearly impossible to reach that without hitting at least .800+ versus righties. Vaughn struggled against righties his rookie year...I showed in another thread that he and Mike Schmidt's rookie years were very similar...MS was terrible against righties his rookie year and then hit .880 against them the next 18 years. We are also twisted over this defense thing...Abreu is 35 this coming season. His end is in sight...Vaughn will be at first for ten years...we are going to forgo that because for one year he has to play right? As for the bad outfielders...really...you have hitters the caliber of Jose Ramirez in right and in left...and both are young enough to be competent defensively...you don't want that? Finally they are both cost controlled for five more years. For our window to be long we need affordable young players. Don't touch these guys!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 17 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said: This is so right. I think we have all twisted ourselves in knots over this righty/lefty business. If we think, as I suspect all of us do, that both Eloy and Vaughn will be top 25 hitters...which this past year was an .870 OPS (Marcus Semien)...it is nearly impossible to reach that without hitting at least .800+ versus righties. Vaughn struggled against righties his rookie year...I showed in another thread that he and Mike Schmidt's rookie years were very similar...MS was terrible against righties his rookie year and then hit .880 against them the next 18 years. We are also twisted over this defense thing...Abreu is 35 this coming season. His end is in sight...Vaughn will be at first for ten years...we are going to forgo that because for one year he has to play right? As for the bad outfielders...really...you have hitters the caliber of Jose Ramirez in right and in left...and both are young enough to be competent defensively...you don't want that? Finally they are both cost controlled for five more years. For our window to be long we need affordable young players. Don't touch these guys!!! The problem with this logic is how much of that .800+ against RHPs comes against the high-end ones that you face in the playoffs? The reality is lineup balance does matter and it gets exposed against tougher competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 4 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: The problem with this logic is how much of that .800+ against RHPs comes against the high-end ones that you face in the playoffs? The reality is lineup balance does matter and it gets exposed against tougher competition. Not many players lefty or righty hit the top pitchers. That is kind of why they are the top pitchers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 Just now, Dick Allen said: Not many players lefty or righty hit the top pitchers. That is kind of why they are the top pitchers. You don’t think the top pitchers have LH/RH splits? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunt Ritual Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 Trading a players like Eloy and Vaughn for the sake of "lineup balance" seems incredibly shortsighted. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 1 minute ago, Bunt Ritual said: Trading a players like Eloy and Vaughn for the sake of "lineup balance" seems incredibly shortsighted. Again, no one is saying trade him just for the sake of lineup balance. But if you can get a similar or better player at a different position and it improves the lineup balance then it should be explored. I love Andrew Vaughn and think he’s going to be a stud hitter, but this idea that he is untradable is laughable to me. And to be clear, I wouldn’t move him for anything less than a star player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunt Ritual Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: Again, no one is saying trade him just for the sake of lineup balance. But if you can get a similar or better player at a different position and it improves the lineup balance then it should be explored. I love Andrew Vaughn and think he’s going to be a stud hitter, but this idea that he is untradable is laughable to me. And to be clear, I wouldn’t move him for anything less than a star player. That I agree with. If Vaughn can get us Reynolds or K.Marte I would be onboard depending on the rest of the package. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 1 hour ago, ChiSox59 said: Team defense is at worst average with Vaughn in LF, Conforto in RF and a solid defender at 2B (lots of options). The key to improving OF defense is putting Eloy at DH 75%+ amount of the time, where he belongs. He’s a DH. It’s time to make him one. I know where you are coming from but if Eloy is the DH that leaves Grandal sitting on the bench 30-40% of the time. It' of course doable but yet not ideal IMO. I have favored playing Vaugh/Sheets/Engel in RF with the heavy money outlay going to 2nd, backup catcher, and pitching. DH is handled with Grandal when not catching and the right fielders not playing the field that day. Of course, another option is to acquire a 20 million dollar player for both RF and 2nd base. Then trade either Eloy or Vaughn for pitching if the right deal is available. RH can go lots of different ways if the right deals are available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 6 hours ago, southsider2k5 said: I would RATHER spend money in FA and keep our quality depth. We all would but that's not realistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirmin' for Yermin Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 Eloy is going to hit .300 with 40 bombs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 2 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said: The problem with this logic is how much of that .800+ against RHPs comes against the high-end ones that you face in the playoffs? The reality is lineup balance does matter and it gets exposed against tougher competition. I mean...elite pitchers are elite pitchers against everyone. Corbin Burnes this year had a .477 OPS vs righties and .561 versus lefties. Rodon's splits were virtually identical against lefty and righty. I think the question is would you rather have a righty top 25 bat hit against a righty or a lefty top 50 bat against a righty. Paul Goldschmidt equivalent vs Avisail Garcia (23 vs 49 OPS) equivalent but one has a handedness advantage. I'd prefer the great hitter vs the good hitter with handedness advantage. I'm not really sure who you can trade the 24 year old Vaughn earning $550,000 for that would have the same upside. If we are shooting the moon with this rebuild...yes cheap controllable core pieces shouldn't be traded. Brian Reynolds? He's two years older, $4 million more and about to hit Arb 2...meaning he's about to get a lot more expensive. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tray Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 Well go ahead, buy into the hype with Vaughn but check back with yourself after next season and see if he lived up to it. I suspect he may become a slightly better than average hitter (.250-.270 BA with 20-25HR ) and that he will be deployed in a platoon role once again next season. Not that bad but maybe less than what I hear that some fans expect from him. I do not think Hahn can replace Vaughn's production in a trade, so he stays, at least for another year. And no, Hahn is not going to trade Eloy. Trade Eloy and replace him with Vaughn? My God what has gotten into some of you ? - 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 10 minutes ago, tray said: Well go ahead, buy into the hype with Vaughn but check back with yourself after next season and see if he lived up to it. I suspect he may become a slightly better than average hitter (.250-.270 BA with 20-25HR ) and that he will be deployed in a platoon role once again next season. Not that bad but maybe less than what I hear that some fans expect from him. I do not think Hahn can replace Vaughn's production in a trade, so he stays, at least for another year. And no, Hahn is not going to trade Eloy. Trade Eloy and replace him with Vaughn? My God what has gotten into some of you ? - Least surprising take. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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