Kendall Graveman agrees to deal w/Sox 3/$24

[fathom]

7 minutes ago, kleedawg said:

My initial thought but its clear they are moving on from him with the emergence of Bobby witt and development of nicky lopez...did you know he was from naperville?

Even funnier, he was signing autographs this month at a card shop in Naperville 

[kleedawg]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I'll b**** about the Sox paying for guys at their absolute peak value as long as they keep doing it. It will never stop being stupid; just as it was stupid for Kimbrel, it is stupid for Graveman. Find guys before their one breakout campaign, stop signing them after it. Just my thoughts. I'm not a fan of the sustainability of Graveman as a reliever. I could be wrong.

How do you know Gravemen has reached his peak value? Could he still be ascending? LOL find guys before their breakout campaign, yeah no sweat just  get a crystal ball. Talk about moving the goal post to the twilight zone.

[MackowiakYakYak]

Has there been a more recent Sox signing of a set-up guy than Kelvin Herrera? Guy was brutal when he was here, but there were obvious signs that he was declining leading into the Sox signing him.

Gravemen has had two straight seasons where his peripherals look decent. Savant has him with an expected ERA of around 3.7 the last two seasons which isn't exactly great but I wouldn't be upset if he threw consistent mid-3 ERAs for three years.

I think it's a fine deal taken on its own. They better trade Kimbrel and it'd still be nice if they signed Tepera as well.

[Quin]

4 minutes ago, Baron said:

Jesse Crain got a 3 year 13 million dollar deal and his best years were here. If your trying to add to Parkman's argument I don't see how he works. We got all the upside. 

I'm just trying to talk about veteran pitchers signed here for decent chunks of change. I don't remember the going rate back then for relievers, but wasn't that a decent amount?

Also, I know Dotel wasn't nails, he wasn't utter trash.

FWIW: I'm not trying to add onto Parkman's argument because Jack's argument, because its a weak sauce argument.

[Quin]

Just now, MackowiakYakYak said:

Has there been a more recent Sox signing of a set-up guy than Kelvin Herrera? Guy was brutal when he was here, but there were obvious signs that he was declining leading into the Sox signing him.

Gravemen has had two straight seasons where his peripherals look decent. Savant has him with an expected ERA of around 3.7 the last two seasons which isn't exactly great but I wouldn't be upset if he threw consistent mid-3 ERAs for three years.

I think it's a fine deal taken on its own. They better trade Kimbrel and it'd still be nice if they signed Tepera as well.

Ok this one I legitimately forgot and was 100% brutal and awful.

[kleedawg]

2 minutes ago, Quin said:

I'm just trying to talk about veteran pitchers signed here for decent chunks of change. I don't remember the going rate back then for relievers, but wasn't that a decent amount?

Also, I know Dotel wasn't nails, he wasn't utter trash.

FWIW: I'm not trying to add onto Parkman's argument because Jack's argument, because its a weak sauce argument.

I liked him. He was more good than bad. Seemed a great teammate. Through like 4 innings in relief in an extra inning win when our pen badly depleted. Without that no game 163.

[Chicago White Sox]

 

[VAfan]

Graveman pitched 11 innings in the postseason this year over 3 series with a 1.64 ERA.  Only Garrett Crochet and Jose Ruiz had lower ERAs for the Sox this postseason.  Ryan Tepera was at 1.93.  He was next best.  Next up was Lopez at 4.50.  Rodon was 6.75.  Everyone else was shelled at 8 runs per nine or higher..  

[SonofaRoache]

23 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

I still think they will resign Tepera. 

I don't see why not to be honest. Send Kimbrel to the sun and mourn trading Nick and Codi for nothing. Then hope it doesn't bite you too hard. 

[Chicago White Sox]

Hendriks, Bummer, Graveman, & Crochet should be an excellent back end of a bullpen.  We still need to add at least one more solid RH reliever, but that need becomes much less pressing with the RH setup role now filled.  And it would have been super dangerous to wait until after the lockout to start addressing, so really glad they didn’t dick around.

[Jack Parkman]

27 minutes ago, raBBit said:

Why mention Keuchel and not Grandal/Hendriks?

Grandal and Hendriks were both top of the market, impact players at their position. I disagree with them spending top dollar at catcher and closer, but I'll take what I can get. And the Sox absolutely needed a catcher when Grandal was signed. 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[raBBit]

Just now, Jack Parkman said:

Grandal and Hendriks were both top of the market, impact players. I disagree with them spending top dollar at catcher and closer, but I'll take what I can get. And the Sox absolutely needed a catcher when Grandal was signed. 

For sure that makes sense. I was just making sure you were in fact ignoring the facts that don't support your complaints. 

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

There’s a buncha caution flags in his numbers. Big jump in his Houston walk rate, career low HR rate in 2021 too. But it’s also his first year as a full time reliever, so maybe that’s who he is out of the bullpen.

I feel like this one is squarely a test of those big league scouts. Are they just looking at his ERA and saying “that’s fine” or have they really torn into his tape this year? If he’s got an ERa of 2 in July someone can bump this post when trying to compliment them.

Yes, Graveman was off for two years after his surgery and conversion, regressed some after the innings caught up to him (as did Kimbrel) to end the year.

Both should be fine after securing a normal RP workload in 2021 without injury issues, though Jerry Reinsdorf just stated the Sox continue to look to trade Kimbrel.

 

[caulfield12]

This probably means they decided they can't afford both Tepera and Graveman too, so went with the better choice to their evaluators.

The Dotel and Linebrink comparisons are the first that come to mind...as Crain was more of a value add with question marks who out produced expectations before breaking down. Now that's typically where we excel in the bullpen, not paying going market rates.

Pretty much everyone questioned Herrera, it was quite obvious he was toast...and that they were attempting to catch lightning in a bottle.

We still need to bring in 2-3 if not 3-4 Jimmy Cordero's and hope for just one of them to break through.  The money should be reserved for Top 3 needs.  And maybe this makes a Leury return more difficult unless the budget is a legit $190~200 million.

I think most Sox fans would also like to shore up the backup catching spot as well with a veteran with solid defensive and leadership skills.

Edited November 23, 2021 by caulfield12

[michelangelosmonkey]

1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said:

Oh they spend....I just hate their strategy. I'd rather them spend in FA for actual impact players rather than throwing around mid-range contracts for guys like Keuchel and Graveman. 

Yes why can't we emulate the Phillies, Mets and Padres strategy...$300 million contract guys basically guarantee the playoffs.  

[Jerksticks]

I guess I don’t understand the angst with allocating a big chunk of money to the pen.  
 

Most of our really good players are around pre-arb or locked up on pretty good deals.  
 

If $190M is true, Tommy likey 

[Harold's Leg Lift]

38 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

I don't see why not to be honest. Send Kimbrel to the sun and mourn trading Nick and Codi for nothing. Then hope it doesn't bite you too hard. 

Sure I'll be right behind you mourning the lose of those two.  

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Yes why can't we emulate the Phillies, Mets and Padres strategy...$300 million contract guys basically guarantee the playoffs.  

But the Padres did actually win a playoff series last year.  Nobody will be satisfied just having a seat at the playoff table next year...at least I hope aspirations are grander than that.

[Sox80]

1 hour ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

I still think they will resign Tepera. 

I'm late to the game . You have any ideas on what we can expect in return for Kimbrel?

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, fathom said:

Was this one of the names you were thinking of before the lockout

It was one of the names I suggested before the deadline last year and everyone told me Seattle probably wouldn't trade him. Then they traded him to Houston and pissed off the Mariner players.

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

I guess I don’t understand the angst with allocating a big chunk of money to the pen.  
 

Most of our really good players are around pre-arb or locked up on pretty good deals.  
 

If $190M is true, Tommy likey 

I think more than anything it reflects the current make up for the team.  We have a lot of cheap high end starters and position players, but not as much in the pen, so that's where they spend today.  I do think that changes here soon with a high dollar starter getting added, at least.

[Two-Gun Pete]

48 minutes ago, MackowiakYakYak said:

Has there been a more recent Sox signing of a set-up guy than Kelvin Herrera? 

This is exactly who I thought of when the Graveman signing was announced.

I don't much care for them allocating as many resources into the bullpen as they do. I wonder where this org's BP spending compares to other teams.

[michelangelosmonkey]

4 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

But the Padres did actually win a playoff series last year.  Nobody will be satisfied just having a seat at the playoff table next year...at least I hope aspirations are grander than that.

I've been saying for months the Sox will have a top five payroll.  I think the goal for everyone is World Series.   I just hate the theory that if you don't pay the top guy the top money you are stupid.   We already have our $300 million guys...Robert, Jiminez, Moncado, TA...we just don't have to pay them that...so we can allocate the money to mid level contracts. Still hoping for one mega deal...Semien or Max...but it's nice we don't have money tied up in bad contracts.  

[Two-Gun Pete]

16 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

I guess I don’t understand the angst with allocating a big chunk of money to the pen.

Craig Kimbrel in 2021: 2.2 fWAR @ $16MM/yr

Leury Garcia in 2021: 2.0 fWAR @ $3.5MM/yr

 

RPs are necessary, no doubt. But even a heavily-used RP cannot accumulate as much WAR as a cromulent everyday position player.

This is why some of us don't like spending this kind of cash on a guy who will appear in fewer innings in 2022 than the backup C, or the 4th OFer, or a utility IFer.

[South Side Hit Men]

Hahn has had a solid record overall with relief pitching acquisitions.

Hahn's 2013-2021 Relief Pitching Acquisitions ($5M +):

• $13.0M Liam Hendriks $54M 4 years; 2021; 71 IP; 2.6 bWAR; 2.54 ERA; 2.34 FIP. Three years remaining.
• $11.5M David Robertson $46M 4 years; 2015 - July 2017; 159 IP; 2.9 bWAR; 3.28 ERA; 3.05 FIP. Traded for Blake Rutherford (AAA). 
• $9.0M Joakim Soria $9M + $1M buyout; April - July 2018; 38.2 IP; 1.1 bWAR; 2.56 ERA; 2.15 FIP. Traded for minor leaguers.
• $9.0M Kelvin Herrera $17M + $1M buyout; 53.2 IP; -0.5 bWAR; 6.54 ERA; 4.95 FIP. Free agent.
• $8.9M Alex Colome $17.85M 2019-2020; 83.1 IP; 2.1 bWAR; 2.27 ERA; 3.78 FIP. Free agent.
• $8.0M Kendall Graveman $24M 3 years. Three years remaining.
• $6.0M Steve Cishek $5.25M + $0.75M buyout; 20 IP; -0.2 bWAR, 5.40 ERA; 5.64 FIP. Free agent.
• $5.3M Craig Kimbrel $5.3M Aug-Sept 2021; 2022 Trade TBD?  23  IP; 0.0 bWAR; 5.09 ERA; 4.56 FIP. 2022 / possible trade candidate.
• $5.0M Zach Duke $15M 3 years: 2015 - July 2016: 98 IP; 1.7 bWAR; 3.11 ERA; 4.01 FIP. Traded for Charlie Tilson (-1.6 bWAR).