Kendall Graveman agrees to deal w/Sox 3/$24

[hi8is]

11 minutes ago, tray said:

I never said "they blew that evaluation on Lynn" but they did blow it on Kimbrel champ.

" I mean, it’s pretty obvious Kimbrel was going to collapse well before we acquired him. "

LOL. Actually some predicted his decline.

The Story Behind Craig Kimbrel's Sudden and Bizarre Decline

You sound angry. Amirite? Are you angry? 

 

I think he just thinks your poop stinks and hasn’t had enough sense to add you to the Hall of Fame List.

Escuse me, back to second grade art class I go…

( It’s going to be a LONG off-season everyone. ) ?

[CeaseAndExist]

13 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

They won 93 games because of exactly what I laid out above; they acquired good assets during the rebuild. There is no argument from me there. Hahn, in general, hit a home run on all of those trades and acquisitions (Robert). The rest of it though? Just whatever...

and I love Hendriks, but the guy is a closer. He's the last piece to the puzzle, and honestly the Sox are throwing huge money at relievers because they whiffed on their 1st round RP draft pick, and whiffed on development of their countless young guys coming up as RP's.

I'm as excited as anyone, but my goodness if the water carrying for this ownership group isn't flat out exhausting every single off-season. We've heard this nonsense about the Sox playing with the big boys for three damn years now and the Rays are now lapping them in salary commitments to a single player. The Sox will earn the benefit of the doubt and the belief in these talking-head narratives that "we're gonna be happy and this off-season is different" when they actually prove that to fans ONE time in the entire existence of the organization.

lol. The Sox could trade Kimbrel for Wander and you'd complain about it. If the front office is even half as bad as you claim, they'd have won 30 games last year.

It's just exhausting at this point. ZERO other fanbases would be upset at signing a good reliever like Graveman. You seem like you will never be happy about anything the Sox do, so suggesting that is even possible is ridiculous.

Would LOVE to see your Bears takes though haha

[Chicago White Sox]

4 hours ago, tray said:

I never said "they blew that evaluation on Lynn" but they did blow it on Kimbrel champ.

" I mean, it’s pretty obvious Kimbrel was going to collapse well before we acquired him. "

LOL. Actually some predicted his decline.

The Story Behind Craig Kimbrel's Sudden and Bizarre Decline

You sound angry. Amirite? Are you angry? 

 

Yup, I’m angry at armchair GMs like yourself who use hindsight to suggest they are smarter than Andrew Friedman & Erik Neander.  But then I see you’re using a video from a year ago about Kimbrel’s “sudden & bizarre decline” with the Cubs as proof that he would go from best reliever in baseball pre-deadline to a complete gas can post-deadline and I realize this is just another one of your loud, baseless arguments.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

3 hours ago, CeaseAndExist said:

lol. The Sox could trade Kimbrel for Wander and you'd complain about it. If the front office is even half as bad as you claim, they'd have won 30 games last year.

It's just exhausting at this point. ZERO other fanbases would be upset at signing a good reliever like Graveman. You seem like you will never be happy about anything the Sox do, so suggesting that is even possible is ridiculous.

Would LOVE to see your Bears takes though haha

I've praised multiple moves and have praised Hahn countless times, besides that though great points.

[Texsox]

43 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I've praised multiple moves and have praised Hahn countless times, besides that though great points.

Would you say you praise him 75%, 50%, 25%, 5%?

[caulfield12]

27 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Would you say you praise him 75%, 50%, 25%, 5%?

Is this the modern-day version of the Shawon-O-Meter?

[Two-Gun Pete]

5 hours ago, CeaseAndExist said:

ZERO other fanbases would be upset at signing a good reliever like Graveman. 

Maybe, but seeing how RH addressed the vs RHP kryptonite with Hernandez, and the RF hole with NOBODY, I think RH has earned every scrap of critique.

After all, these are still the geniuses that gave you James Shields and Jeff Samardzija. 

4 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

1. I’m angry at armchair GMs like yourself who use hindsight to suggest they are smarter than Andrew Friedman & Erik Neander.  

 

2.But then I see you’re using a video from a year ago about Kimbrel’s “sudden & bizarre decline” with the Cubs as proof that he would go from best reliever in baseball pre-deadline to a complete gas can post-deadline

1. Did the white sox need the same things as TB and LAD at the TDL? Did TB & LAD have the exact same holes as the SOX? If not, then this is a canard.

We're still waiting to see how Kimbrel was going to solve the RF hole. If he was not going to solve the RF hole, then it was the wrong acquisition.

And even if there was a small issue with the RH setup men, it wasn't just straight up kryptonite to this team, as it was having no solutions for RF, & scant additions to defeat RHP.

 

2. You yourself posted a few weeks ago that Kimbrel was only good in 54% of his innings in recent seasons. IOW, it was barely better than a coin flip that Kimbrel would be good. And again, how would Kimbrel solve RHP, or solve RF?

 

...just askin'...

Edited November 25, 2021 by Two-Gun Pete

[Texsox]

10 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Is this the modern-day version of the Shawon-O-Meter?

It's always interesting how someone thinks they post versus how others perceive them. 

[tray]

28 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Maybe, but seeing how RH addressed the vs RHP kryptonite with Hernandez, and the RF hole with NOBODY, I think RH has earned every scrap of critique.

After all, these are still the geniuses that gave you James Shields and Jeff Samardzija. 

1. Did the white sox need the same things as TB and LAD at the TDL? Did TB & LAD have the exact same holes as the SOX? If not, then this is a canard.

We're still waiting to see how Kimbrel was going to solve the RF hole. If he was not going to solve the RF hole, then it was the wrong acquisition.

And even if there was a small issue with the RH setup men, it wasn't just straight up kryptonite to this team, as it was having no solutions for RF, & scant additions to defeat RHP.

 

2. You yourself posted a few weeks ago that Kimbrel was only good in 54% of his innings in recent seasons. IOW, it was barely better than a coin flip that Kimbrel would be good. And again, how would Kimbrel solve RHP, or solve RF?

 

 

You nailed it Two Gun Pete.

 You served the  Nashville Hot Chicken Connoisseur a serving of cold turkey today. 

David Ross replaced Kimbrel as Closer midseason 2020. David Ross and Hoyer had lost confidence in him after a rocky 2020 season and again during Spring Training in 2021.

Hahn gambled on the trade and lost. If this was a Free Agent acquisition that did not cost Madrigal and Heuer, it could be defended as a costly dice roll, but, like the trade for James Shields that cost Tatis Jr. it was beyond risky. Actually if was foolhardy, and it hurts, to wit:

" In the end, there is really no debate no matter how you want to put it. The ‘set-up man’ of Craig Kimbrel should live in infamy of White Sox fans heads for a decent amount of time. It feels good to get a much needed win in a cross-town trade after, well you know, the Jose Quintana deal… "

https://cubbiescrib.com/2021/10/16/chicago-cubs-undisputed-winners-craig-kimbrel-trade/

ouch. That hurts and will continue to as long as Madrigal and Heuer  continue to contribute for the Cubs.

 

 

 

 

 

[Chicago White Sox]

37 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Maybe, but seeing how RH addressed the vs RHP kryptonite with Hernandez, and the RF hole with NOBODY, I think RH has earned every scrap of critique.

After all, these are still the geniuses that gave you James Shields and Jeff Samardzija. 

1. Did the white sox need the same things as TB and LAD at the TDL? Did TB & LAD have the exact same holes as the SOX? If not, then this is a canard.

We're still waiting to see how Kimbrel was going to solve the RF hole. If he was not going to solve the RF hole, then it was the wrong acquisition.

And even if there was a small issue with the RH setup men, it wasn't just straight up kryptonite to this team, as it was having no solutions for RF, & scant additions to defeat RHP.

 

2. You yourself posted a few weeks ago that Kimbrel was only good in 54% of his innings in recent seasons. IOW, it was barely better than a coin flip that Kimbrel would be good. And again, how would Kimbrel solve RHP, or solve RF?

 

...just askin'...

You continue to prove you can’t separate need / price from expectation.  Tray is ripping the front office for not assuming Kimbrel would collapse like a house of cards.  The best two organizations in baseball both were in hot pursuit of him and did not expect this either.  You arguing there were other needs is a completely different argument.  Also, the percentages you have are wrong.  It was 70% of his innings with the Cubs that were elite innings and the ones immediately preceding the transaction.  The 30% of bad innings came the year he didn’t have a spring training.  Nothing suggested a sudden fall-off was imminent and anyone saying otherwise is full of shit to put it politely.

[Snopek]

55 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Maybe, but seeing how RH addressed the vs RHP kryptonite with Hernandez, and the RF hole with NOBODY, I think RH has earned every scrap of critique.

After all, these are still the geniuses that gave you James Shields and Jeff Samardzija. 

1. Did the white sox need the same things as TB and LAD at the TDL? Did TB & LAD have the exact same holes as the SOX? If not, then this is a canard.

We're still waiting to see how Kimbrel was going to solve the RF hole. If he was not going to solve the RF hole, then it was the wrong acquisition.

And even if there was a small issue with the RH setup men, it wasn't just straight up kryptonite to this team, as it was having no solutions for RF, & scant additions to defeat RHP.

 

2. You yourself posted a few weeks ago that Kimbrel was only good in 54% of his innings in recent seasons. IOW, it was barely better than a coin flip that Kimbrel would be good. And again, how would Kimbrel solve RHP, or solve RF?

 

...just askin'...

Did I miss a quote from Hahn saying it was either upgrade the bullpen or RF, but definitely not both? Otherwise, I don’t know why you keep tying the Kimbrel pickup to RF.
 

Should they have upgraded RF? Absolutely. But do we know that if they didn’t add to the bullpen, they would have gotten a RF instead? Of course not.

[Balta1701]

25 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

You continue to prove you can’t separate need / price from expectation.  Tray is ripping the front office for not assuming Kimbrel would collapse like a house of cards.  The best two organizations in baseball both were in hot pursuit of him and did not expect this either.  You arguing there were other needs is a completely different argument.  Also, the percentages you have are wrong.  It was 70% of his innings with the Cubs that were elite innings and the ones immediately preceding the transaction.  The 30% of bad innings came the year he didn’t have a spring training.  Nothing suggested a sudden fall-off was imminent and anyone saying otherwise is full of shit to put it politely.

I wasn’t one of them, but there were people in the Kimbrel thread who said they didn’t like the trade because he could fall apart again. 

[michelangelosmonkey]

1 hour ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Maybe, but seeing how RH addressed the vs RHP kryptonite with Hernandez, and the RF hole with NOBODY, I think RH has earned every scrap of critique.

After all, these are still the geniuses that gave you James Shields and Jeff Samardzija. 

1. Did the white sox need the same things as TB and LAD at the TDL? Did TB & LAD have the exact same holes as the SOX? If not, then this is a canard.

We're still waiting to see how Kimbrel was going to solve the RF hole. If he was not going to solve the RF hole, then it was the wrong acquisition.

And even if there was a small issue with the RH setup men, it wasn't just straight up kryptonite to this team, as it was having no solutions for RF, & scant additions to defeat RHP.

 

2. You yourself posted a few weeks ago that Kimbrel was only good in 54% of his innings in recent seasons. IOW, it was barely better than a coin flip that Kimbrel would be good. And again, how would Kimbrel solve RHP, or solve RF?

 

...just askin'...

Ohmigod...let it go.  The White Sox took a calculated gamble on creating a post season relief core that would be legendary.  That IS a path to World Series victory...you get 9 innings to score and the other team only gets 6.  And you know what?  It didn't frigging work.   Kimbrell for whatever reason was other worldly until July and then was bad.  It happens.  Sad they didn't fix RF...you know who was the PERFECT RF fix?   27 year old lefty power hitter, strong defense, reasonable contract for 2021/2022...strong career and had put up a 4.2 WAR up to the trade deadline?  Go ask the Yankees how Joey Gallo worked for them.  Of course Gallo would have cost us Madrigal and Crochett...but I know you'd be on the board bitching about it if we had made that trade too.  It's so fun to follow a sport and then look in retrospect at what went wrong and scream to the heavens how stupid we are for everything that didn't go right.  .     

[Snopek]

21 minutes ago, tray said:

David Ross replaced Kimbrel as Closer midseason 2020. David Ross and Hoyer had lost confidence in him after a rocky 2020 season and again during Spring Training in 2021.

Are you insinuating that he was washed up during Spring Training of 2021, was the best reliever in baseball for the first half of the regular season, and then became washed up again?

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, Snopek said:

Are you insinuating that he was washed up during Spring Training of 2021, was the best reliever in baseball for the first half of the regular season, and then became washed up again?

This would have been a very well supported description of his career up to that point. A great first half by him was very much unexpected after struggles going all the way back to his time with the Red Sox in 2018.

[Chicago White Sox]

29 minutes ago, tray said:

You nailed it Two Gun Pete.

 You served the  Nashville Hot Chicken Connoisseur a serving of cold turkey today. 

David Ross replaced Kimbrel as Closer midseason 2020. David Ross and Hoyer had lost confidence in him after a rocky 2020 season and again during Spring Training in 2021.

Hahn gambled on the trade and lost. If this was a Free Agent acquisition that did not cost Madrigal and Heuer, it could be defended as a costly dice roll, but, like the trade for James Shields that cost Tatis Jr. it was beyond risky. Actually if was foolhardy, and it hurts, to wit:

" In the end, there is really no debate no matter how you want to put it. The ‘set-up man’ of Craig Kimbrel should live in infamy of White Sox fans heads for a decent amount of time. It feels good to get a much needed win in a cross-town trade after, well you know, the Jose Quintana deal… "

https://cubbiescrib.com/2021/10/16/chicago-cubs-undisputed-winners-craig-kimbrel-trade/

ouch. That hurts and will continue to as long as Madrigal and Heuer  continue to contribute for the Cubs.

 

 

 

 

 

Yup, Hahn gambled that the guy who put up a 1.64 FIP in the 52.2 innings prior (including all but the first IP in that “rocky” 2020 season) to the trade and with a HoF track record would somehow remain good.  What a fucking idiot.  Too bad one of those other morons Friedman or Neander didn’t acquire Kimbrel first so Hahn couldn’t land such a ticking time bomb.  My god the amount of revisionist theory here is truly astounding.

[Chicago White Sox]

11 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I wasn’t one of them, but there were people in the Kimbrel thread who said they didn’t like the trade because he could fall apart again. 

Because 20 bad innings in 2019 after not having a spring training?  That’s a pretty stupid to think the best reliever in baseball is going to suddenly fall-off…

[Texsox]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Because 20 bad innings in 2019 after not having a spring training?  That’s a pretty stupid to think the best reliever in baseball is going to suddenly fall-off…

Posters who always predict the worse will sometimes be right.

[Sambuca]

I enjoy the White Sox acquiring good players.  I enjoy the White Sox improving their team.  

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 11/24/2021 at 12:46 PM, Bob Sacamano said:

Yeah… I don’t know where this benefit of the doubt for them to be able to build around the team through trades and free agency is coming from. I’ll gladly tip my hat to them if they pull off some major moves.

Well it's mostly from the past where the Sox lagged behind it appeared in scouting , development ,analytics . And when that stuff should 've been fixed before they started the rebuild it was supposedly fixed during the rebuild. It didn't help that Semein and Tatis were given away . Also didnt help that the Sox were trading away IFA money, have yet to find a Dominican star through that process which has been around a while with the most talent coming from the DR. Wilder scandal. And they also were kind of late to the party that middle infielders were gold while drafting catchers and 1st baseman. Who exactly is the last starting pitcher drafted by the Sox with a high draft choice who had any sustained success ?

They also didn't produce much of anything during the draft from the bad rebuild years . They tanked but didn't tank quite badly enough to get higher draft picks. One of them was given away (Madrigal). What's the failure there? They draft him 4th overall ,then think they made a mistake, so gave him away for nothing ? Then there's the whole Machado friends and family waste of money . Then there was the guy who said Collins would've been drafted 1-1 if the Sox had the first pick who has since been replaced.

I'm probably forgetting some like TLR being signed by JR basically while many think TLR has more input into decision making than Hahn.

@bmags Recently posted a list of good draft choices around baseball that the Sox passed on in some early rounds . I know what a crap shoot the draft is but how is it that the Dodgers always find better draft picks than the Sox picking later or find guys like Muncy and Taylor when the Sox can't ,not even during a rebuild when you can pour more resources into scouting and development and analytics .

You have to have a long memory . You just can't remember the successes and think everything is OK and keep buying into JR being some kind of magnanimous owner. It's alleged by a former GM of the Marlins that JR supposedly said his best advice was to  finish in second place and keep dangling the carrot.

Now some people would argue to death about any or all these things but there's enough of a track record of discord to think Jerry runs things his way and it hasn't turned out all that good  many many times.

[caulfield12]

On 11/26/2021 at 1:38 AM, Chicago White Sox said:

Yup, Hahn gambled that the guy who put up a 1.64 FIP in the 52.2 innings prior (including all but the first IP in that “rocky” 2020 season) to the trade and with a HoF track record would somehow remain good.  What a fucking idiot.  Too bad one of those other morons Friedman or Neander didn’t acquire Kimbrel first so Hahn couldn’t land such a ticking time bomb.  My god the amount of revisionist theory here is truly astounding.

What are you going to argue if the Dodgers or Rays sign Rodon?

[Kyyle23]

4 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

What are you going to argue if the Dodgers or Rays sign Rodon?

Why would he argue anything, he respects those GMs.  They also have the depth to deal with any sort of injury issues 

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Why would he argue anything, he respects those GMs.  They also have the depth to deal with any sort of injury issues 

The White Sox, as you asserted heading into the offseason, are the #2 team in baseball.

Why can’t we find examples from their fan boards where they are lauding the Sox organization…by attempting to compare themselves to US?

Why aren’t the White Sox considered the gold standard, instead of us always chasing them? 
 

We keep saying they’re so brilliant for almost acquiring Burnes, or at least targeting him…so why don’t we credit the Brewers for properly valuing their asset and not trading him away?

It can’t be that we trade assets away like Tatis, Bassitt, Montas, Narvaez and Semien and nobody could have possibly foreseen their development…when that’s exactly what happened with other organizations.  Somebody evaluated and obviously wanted to acquire those specific players.

[Kyyle23]

17 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

The White Sox, as you asserted heading into the offseason, are the #2 team in baseball.

Why can’t we find examples from their fan boards where they are lauding the Sox organization…by attempting to compare themselves to US?

Why aren’t the White Sox considered the gold standard, instead of us always chasing them? 
 

We keep saying they’re so brilliant for almost acquiring Burnes, or at least targeting him…so why don’t we credit the Brewers for properly valuing their asset and not trading him away?

It can’t be that we trade assets away like Tatis, Bassitt, Montas, Narvaez and Semien and nobody could have possibly foreseen their development…when that’s exactly what happened with other organizations.  Somebody evaluated and obviously wanted to acquire those specific players.

You absolutely love putting words in everyone's mouths and creating fantasy scenarios in which you hold the moral high ground and were right about what did not happen.

what does what he thinks about the dodgers or rays signing Rodon have to do with what this discussion is.  He is a fan.  It doesn't change anything.  Who fucking cares what another message board thinks???

 

[Chicago White Sox]

17 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

The White Sox, as you asserted heading into the offseason, are the #2 team in baseball.

Why can’t we find examples from their fan boards where they are lauding the Sox organization…by attempting to compare themselves to US?

Why aren’t the White Sox considered the gold standard, instead of us always chasing them? 
 

We keep saying they’re so brilliant for almost acquiring Burnes, or at least targeting him…so why don’t we credit the Brewers for properly valuing their asset and not trading him away?

It can’t be that we trade assets away like Tatis, Bassitt, Montas, Narvaez and Semien and nobody could have possibly foreseen their development…when that’s exactly what happened with other organizations.  Somebody evaluated and obviously wanted to acquire those specific players.

Lol…I never called us “brilliant” for pursuing Burnes or Wheeler, rather that it just reflected massive improvement from our pro scouting staff that had reached rock bottom with the Shields trade.  And fans of other organizations do hype our young core & roster despite how ugly you like to paint things at times.