Robbie Ray to the Mariners, 5 years $115 million

[ChiSox59]

Just now, EloyJenkins said:

Oof, I was with you man. this take though...they needed Max, Ray or Gausman to guarantee an ALCS. Now...they have to hope patchwork carries them. Not a great bet when all it was cash. Ray at that price was a fair value based on market. Can't even spend market rate...smdh.

What's wrong with that take?  I am not relying on those guys to be in the rotation.  They're depth pieces that aren't getting any younger. 

[Chicago White Sox]

2 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Weren't you just on the side of "we should sign Gausman" and "they can easily sign 2 top free agents (one being an arm like Gausman/Ray)?" Now you're saying these guys are overpaid and it was never realistic? Or am I confusing you with other people on this board.

I don’t think any of the major free agents have been overpaid and I would have loved to sign Gausman or Ray for those contracts (both are super reasonable).  When I made my comment, I said that under the assumption of a $200M payroll though.  If we’re only at say $180M, then it’s going to be nearly impossible to add both without some serious payroll offloading.

Regarding the comment you quoted, I’m just saying Sox fans who are afraid to overpay a free agent aren’t interested in lining Jerry’s pockets (Ray Ray’s accusation), but are afraid how that will impact when Jerry doesn’t bump up payroll to compensate.  Personally, that wouldn’t stop me and I’d take on that risk to get impact talent.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, chw42 said:

It really is a philosophical problem with this franchise. We love to spend money on mid-market players. It's not like we don't have a high payroll. We do, but our highest paid player is making under $20 million and we've never signed a free agent for a higher AAV than $19 million. If you asked this FO if they'd rather have one 6 WAR player making $30 million a year over 5 years or if they could sign three 2 WAR players over 3 years for $36 million a year they'd probably take the latter every time. 

I won't even say they have a high payroll because they don't. They were 15th last year in total payroll during a season in which they were "all-in."

The Sox don't spend anymore, and fans are supposed to just accept it and not have any disdain towards a team raking in big profits and not reinvesting it in the product because that's just "how it is."

[almagest]

5 minutes ago, turnin' two said:

https://sports.betmgm.com/en/blog/mlb-highest-payrolls-2021/

 

They're pretty far from the Pirates and A's in payroll.  

Seattle was at $57 million, Texas was at $66 million, Toronto was at $80 million. They had way more room than the Sox did for these contracts - no one else in the top half of MLB salaries besides the Mets, Angels (Angels spend tons of money all the time and it looks like the Mets are joining them) and White Sox have signed anyone of note this offseason.

Edited November 29, 2021 by almagest

[EloyJenkins]

 

[chw42]

Just now, EloyJenkins said:

 

Holy shit. The Rangers just spent half a billion dollars in 2 days. 

[ChiSox59]

9 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The f'ing Seattle Mariners just signed Robbie Ray, not the Dodgers, Yankees or Mets. The Rangers signed Marcus Semien. The Blue Jays signed Kevin Gausman. lol

This place is truly something else. 

You said you were glad the Sox didn't give him that money. That has nothing to do with living in reality, it's a proclamation that you're happy the Sox didn't sign the reigning Cy Young winner because in your mind he was too expensive. 

Living in reality would be embracing the fact that the Sox have wasted more money in free agency than almost any team signing huge "bad" contracts. They've gotten a lesser return on their dollars than almost every single team in the game over the past twenty years. Yet you're still here living in reality asking them to continue to allocate their funds in that absurd manner. 

You love putting words in people's mouths.  Reality is that if the Sox sign Ray, and he goes back to being the pitcher he has been for 80% of his career, its a crippling move.  So yes, I am glad they didn't take that gamble, because I know the Sox won't spend over their mistakes.  Robby Ray goes back to the 1.4 WHIP guy he's always been in 22, the Sox aren't signing another SP next offseason to take his spot.  See: Dallas Keuchel. 

Is that me celebrating not spending money?  No.  Its me recognizing that the Sox operate with a budget. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

 

Ah, so I put words in your mouth by reading your actual post to mean you wouldn't sign Robbie Ray for that money. Gotcha.

1 minute ago, ChiSox59 said:

You love putting words in people's mouths.  Reality is that if the Sox sign Ray, and he goes back to being the pitcher he has been for 80% of his career, its a crippling move.  So yes, I am glad they didn't take that gamble, because I know the Sox won't spend over their mistakes.  Robby Ray goes back to the 1.4 WHIP guy he's always been in 22, the Sox aren't signing another SP next offseason to take his spot.  See: Dallas Keuchel. 

Is that me celebrating not spending money?  No.  Its me recognizing that the Sox operate with a budget. 

47 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I wanted Robby Ray last year.  Feel free to look it up.  I wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole for 5/$115M.  

Edited November 29, 2021 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[almagest]

What does the Rangers minor league system look like? These are two super impactful signings but that team was so bad last year they're still gonna need a lot of help over the next 3 years and by then Semien is likely declining.

[Bob Sacamano]

Just now, almagest said:

What does the Rangers minor league system look like? These are two super impactful signings but that team was so bad last year they're still gonna need a lot of help over the next 3 years and by then Semien is likely declining.

I bet they sign another starter and position player. Maybe a couple relievers too.

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

 

Ah, so I put words in your mouth by reading your actual post to mean you wouldn't sign Robbie Ray for that money. Gotcha.

lol, what?  Yes - I said I wouldn't touch Robby Ray with a 10 foot pole for $115M over 5 years?  What is so hard to understand there?  ITs a crippling move if it doesn't pan out.  Not complicated stuff buddy. 

[EloyJenkins]

sorry, wrong thread

Edited November 29, 2021 by EloyJenkins

[South Side Hit Men]

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I won't even say they have a high payroll because they don't. They were 15th last year in total payroll during a season in which they were "all-in."

The Sox don't spend anymore, and fans are supposed to just accept it and not have any disdain towards a team raking in big profits and not reinvesting it in the product because that's just "how it is."

The Sox signed up thousands of new season tickets holders last year after Jerry and Hahn flashed playoff carrots.

There is no motivation for them to spend more, or bring in a competent GM/Manager, or buff for FAs.

Jerry was fine with the Bulls wallowing in the same manner for decades. It wasn’t until fans stopped selling out the UC and Jerry stepping down that anything actually changed. Same for the Bears shitshow since Sid Luckman retired.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

13 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

lol, what?  Yes - I said I wouldn't touch Robby Ray with a 10 foot pole for $115M over 5 years?  What is so hard to understand there?  ITs a crippling move if it doesn't pan out.  Not complicated stuff buddy. 

As you bolded, I said you were happy the Sox didn't sign the reigning Cy Young winner because he was "too expensive." You then went on a diatribe about how I put words in your mouth. How did I put words in your mouth by repeating what you said?

You're parroting ownership talking pieces to justify the organization being cheap.

I have been pretty transparent, I'd LOVE the Sox to sign pretty much any of these deals but I know they won't because they operate like a little league franchise. I have been saying since before the off-season kicked off that the Sox would NOT sign any big free agents because they're not serious about spending and helping this group. I was told I was negative and blah blah... but now you're just being "realistic" while my view was negative. Fascinating. 

That doesn't mean I'm going to be excited when the Sox don't sign those players. So I've been living in reality the entire time while also being frustrated at the absurd ways this organization runs shop.

[ChiSox59]

16 minutes ago, EloyJenkins said:

Oof, I was with you man. this take though...they needed Max, Ray or Gausman to guarantee an ALCS. Now...they have to hope patchwork carries them. Not a great bet when all it was was spending cash. Ray at that price was a fair value based on market. Can't even spend market rate...smdh.

Also, Ray and Guasman don't guarantee shit in the playoffs.  Nice to have? Sure.  

Gausman had a 6 ERA this postseason.  How'd that go for guaranteeing the G's an NLCS?  

[turnin' two]

5 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Cool point, hence how I said in Free Agency. 

Are we back to celebrating a team having the 15th highest payroll in baseball last year?

No, but just talking about an individually sized contract isn't nearly reflective of the situation.  So really its a not a great point.  But the one point it really makes, is that if you understand your own point, and expected them to sign Scherzer, Seager or someone like that, well that's your own fault.

[caulfield12]

4 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

Also, Ray and Guasman don't guarantee shit in the playoffs.  Nice to have? Sure.  

Gausman had a 6 ERA this postseason.  How'd that go for guaranteeing the G's an NLCS?  

So we should give Tepera $10 million to return by this argument...?

[GreenSox]

There's no guarantee to anything.  Heck winning the division is no cinch.  You certainly can't count on the  rest of the division playing .500 or less next season.

 Having a fresh staff probably gives you the best chance.  But the Sox need a couple of pitchers to get to that..  And there were some reasonably priced guys out there, and apparently they weren't interested.  We hear trades - well this ace FO has the #30 Farm, so the marginal cost of trades is sky high.  

Edited November 30, 2021 by GreenSox

[SoxBlanco]

4 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

Also, Ray and Guasman don't guarantee shit in the playoffs.  Nice to have? Sure.  

Gausman had a 6 ERA this postseason.  How'd that go for guaranteeing the G's an NLCS?  

Love this post. Those two guys are no different than having Lynn or Giolito on the mound (as long as we’re not facing the Astros, I guess).

The only guy who I thought would really put us over the top in a playoff series was Scherzer. 

If we can trade for Bassitt, that would still be one hell of a playoff rotation. 

[Chicago White Sox]

8 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said:

Love this post. Those two guys are no different than having Lynn or Giolito on the mound (as long as we’re not facing the Astros, I guess).

The only guy who I thought would really put us over the top in a playoff series was Scherzer. 

If we can trade for Bassitt, that would still be one hell of a playoff rotation. 

But are they better than Cease & Keuchel?

[SoxBlanco]

1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

But are they better than Cease & Keuchel?

Of course. Well, definitely better than Keuchel and probably better than Cease, but I guess nobody knows what he will look like next year.

But the point is that those guys wouldn't have guaranteed us an ALCS. I really wanted one of them also, but we're not doomed now. Bassitt is an example of somebody who could be just as good as those two guys. Hell, who would have thought Rodon would be as good as he was last year? Most people were furious that we settled for him last offseason.

[caulfield12]

4 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said:

Of course. Well, definitely better than Keuchel and probably better than Cease, but I guess nobody knows what he will look like next year.

But the point is that those guys wouldn't have guaranteed us an ALCS. I really wanted one of them also, but we're not doomed now. Bassitt is an example of somebody who could be just as good as those two guys. Hell, who would have thought Rodon would be as good as he was last year? Most people were furious that we settled for him last offseason.

Unless you are the Giants or Rays or Rangers (Minor/Gibson/Lynn), if you try to beat the odds with these bargain basement pitching signings, you'll more often than not end up with guys like Jake Arrieta or The Dark Knight giving them one too many chances at the end of their careers.

You can capture lightning in a bottle, like the Giants this season, but it's almost impossible to sustain?

 

When's the last time the White Sox actually drafted and developed an impactful starting pitcher?  Chris Sale.  One year of Cralos Isle of Rodon.

Maybe it will be Vera, but the track record over the last decade with guys like Carson Fulmer hasn't been all that great.  Crochet just wasted another year.  Just look at all those second round draft picks that never amounted to anything, for example.  We're still largely relying on the fruits of the Sale, Eaton and Q trades, along with Luis Robert.

[SoxBlanco]

3 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Unless you are the Giants or Rays or Rangers (Minor/Gibson/Lynn), if you try to beat the odds with these bargain basement pitching signings, you'll more often than not end up with guys like Jake Arrieta or The Dark Knight giving them one too many chances at the end of their careers.

You can capture lightning in a bottle, like the Giants this season, but it's almost impossible to sustain?

 

When's the last time the White Sox actually drafted and developed an impactful starting pitcher?  Chris Sale.  One year of Cralos Isle of Rodon.

Maybe it will be Vera, but the track record over the last decade with guys like Carson Fulmer hasn't been all that great.  Crochet just wasted another year.  Just look at all those second round draft picks that never amounted to anything, for example.  We're still largely relying on the fruits of the Sale, Eaton and Q trades, along with Luis Robert.

Agreed.  That’s why we need to add another arm that isn’t a bargain signing. Go trade for Castillo or one of the Oakland pitchers. We’re not automatically screwed because we didn’t land Gausman or Ray.

[Chicago White Sox]

18 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said:

Of course. Well, definitely better than Keuchel and probably better than Cease, but I guess nobody knows what he will look like next year.

But the point is that those guys wouldn't have guaranteed us an ALCS. I really wanted one of them also, but we're not doomed now. Bassitt is an example of somebody who could be just as good as those two guys. Hell, who would have thought Rodon would be as good as he was last year? Most people were furious that we settled for him last offseason.

I gotcha and makes sense.  Just feels like now would have been a good time to splurge on a starter since Keuchel will come off the books next year and we really have nobody waiting in the wings.  Bassitt would be a fine addition, but a little nervous to speculate on what he might cost even as a one year rental.

[Chicago White Sox]

3 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said:

Agreed.  That’s why we need to add another arm that isn’t a bargain signing. Go trade for Castillo or one of the Oakland pitchers. We’re not automatically screwed because we didn’t land Gausman or Ray.

Castillo is going to cost Vaughn+.